Sin

[Bird123]

We have covered all this ground before. Is there any reason to cover it again?
My beliefs are not going to change and your beliefs are not going to change.

You deny that you have beliefs but since you do not any proof of what you say all you have are beliefs
The only difference between MY beliefs and YOUR beliefs is that my beliefs are religious and yours are man-made, created by you.

I will tell you what I agree with and what I disagree with and why:

You said:
God places Truth in the world. It waits for those who are ready to Discover it. After God does this, God makes no demands. I merely copy God.

I do not believe that God places Truth in this world, because that does not even make sense. How would God do that without a Messenger who reveals God's Truth? How could anyone know what is God's Truth?

You said:
God's great educational system runs on free will. God will never tell His children what to do, nor will God send messengers to tell kids what to do. God is never going to intimidate or coerce anyone's choices. You might want God to control others for you, however this is not going to happen.

God's educational system runs on free will and Messengers. The Messengers do not intimidate anyone's choices, their teachings and laws guide our choices in the direction that God wants us to go, but it will always be a choice.

You said:
It's all a test of Intelligence. Choose what you wish to learn through your free choices. I think it's best to Discover oneself first so the choices made are exactly what one does want to learn.

The problem with that is that what some people choose to learn is not what God wants them to learn, and not what they will need to know in preparation for the next life, and that is why we need a Messenger to guide us in the right direction, just as children need parents to guide them until they become adults.

You really have no clue, do you??


I see where you are at. Not everyone in this world runs totally on beliefs. On the other hand, until you Discover these things for yourself, they will only seem to be beliefs to you especially if you do not want the truth to be the truth.

So I point!! The rest is up to you. I can not change Truth in favor of your beliefs.

That's what I see. It's very clear!
Ask me again and I'll say the same. Truth is not arbitrary as beliefs are.

 

[Trailblazer]

You really have no clue, do you??

I certainly have more than a clue as to what you believe, I just don't agree with it.

I see where you are at. Not everyone in this world runs totally on beliefs.

No, they don't, some run on facts, things that can be proven, but that excludes you since all you have are beliefs.

On the other hand, until you Discover these things for yourself, they will only seem to be beliefs to you especially if you do not want the truth to be the truth.

So I point!! The rest is up to you. I can not change Truth in favor of your beliefs.

And you cannot know Truth since all you have is a belief that you have Discovered the Truth.
You cannot even understand how illogical that is.

That's what I see. It's very clear!
Ask me again and I'll say the same. Truth is not arbitrary as beliefs are.

That's right, the Truth from God as it is revealed by Messengers is not arbitrary like your beliefs are.

 

[Bird123]

I certainly have more than a clue as to what you believe, I just don't agree with it.

No, they don't, some run on facts, things that can be proven, but that excludes you since all you have are beliefs.

And you cannot know Truth since all you have is a belief that you have Discovered the Truth.
You cannot even understand how illogical that is.

That's right, the Truth from God as it is revealed by Messengers is not arbitrary like your beliefs are.

Weren't your messengers people?? Why do you think they are more special than you simply because they say they are messengers?

Where is your: Anything they can do I can do better???

Thomas Edison said Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration.

Indeed, Will is the biggest part of anything.

One can choose to blindly accept then one can do nothing or one can choose to venture into undiscovered country to Discover much more than mere beliefs. Which do you think was my decision that I made years upon years ago?? Which delivers better results??

If a person comes to me and tells me they are a messenger from God or that their holy book comes directly from God, do I accept? No, I search and discover the Real Truth regardless of how I feel about it. It's the same thing when people told me what freezes quicker, hot or cold water. I will have the Real Truth. I will Discover the Real Truth. That is who I am.

God is at a Higher Level. God does not value those petty things mankind holds so dear. When those holy books value those petty things, I know they do not come from God. Holy books reflect mankind for the most part.

If one does not see the petty things in holy books, one either does not understand those petty things or one values those petty things. In either case, they have no clue and lessons are needed.

Lessons bring clarity and understanding. When one understands all sides, intelligence will see those petty things for what they are and intelligence will make the Best choices. Petty things will not be the best choices.

That's what I see. It's very clear.

When one accepts then follows, one will never expand beyond those they follow. Aren't people supposed to become more than the sum of their teachings???? How smart would God really be to create a world full of people following blindly, accepting and being dependent, unable to think for themselves and stand on their own two feet?? Would you really want that for your children??

Yes, that's what I see. It's very clear!!
I am who I am. You will never get me to value Beliefs when all I seek is Truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

Weren't your messengers people?? Why do you think they are more special than you simply because they say they are messengers?

No, it is not simply because they say they are Messengers, it is what they do to prove it.

Where is your: Anything they can do I can do better???

I am not that arrogant. I know I could never do what they do because they have a spiritual nature I do not have.

One can choose to blindly accept then one can do nothing or one can choose to venture into undiscovered country to Discover much more than mere beliefs. Which do you think was my decision that I made years upon years ago?? Which delivers better results??

I do not blindly accept anything. I go into everything with open eyes. It has never been an either/or. One can follow a religion and its teachings and still discover their own reality. Religion is just a guide.

If a person comes to me and tells me they are a messenger from God or that their holy book comes directly from God, do I accept?

You certainly should not accept it someone just because he told he was a Messenger from God. You should check him out thoroughly if he is worth checking out.

No, I search and discover the Real Truth regardless of how I feel about it. It's the same thing when people told me what freezes quicker, hot or cold water. I will have the Real Truth. I will Discover the Real Truth. That is who I am.

You can discover the truth about the material world that way but you won't discover the Truth about God.
Anything you believe you have Discovered about God will just be your imagination. God cannot be Discovered, God is revealed by Messengers.

God is at a Higher Level. God does not value those petty things mankind holds so dear. When those holy books value those petty things, I know they do not come from God. Holy books reflect mankind for the most part.

That's right. God is at a Higher Level and that is why you cannot ever get to where He is at.
God is unsearchable, unapproachable, self-subsisting. Not even the Messengers know the Essence of God.

“No one except Thyself can unravel the secret of Thy nature, and naught else but Thy transcendental Essence can grasp the reality of Thy unsearchable being. How vast the number of those heavenly and all-glorious beings who, in the wilderness of their separation from Thee, have wandered all the days of their lives, and failed in the end to find Thee! How great the multitude of the sanctified and immortal souls who were lost and bewildered while seeking in the desert of search to behold Thy face!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 64

If one does not see the petty things in holy books, one either does not understand those petty things or one values those petty things. In either case, they have no clue and lessons are needed.

You think you know more than the Messengers of God, but you have no clue what they know.

Lessons bring clarity and understanding. When one understands all sides, intelligence will see those petty things for what they are and intelligence will make the Best choices. Petty things will not be the best choices.

Who determines what is petty, you?

How smart would God really be to create a world full of people following blindly, accepting and being dependent, unable to think for themselves and stand on their own two feet?? Would you really want that for your children??

You constantly make straw men. God does not want anyone following blindly or accepting without investigating. and that is not what religious people do. We are self-reliant but we also depend upon God. The Messengers are just teachers, guides. How would children fare with no parents or teachers guiding them?

I am who I am. You will never get me to value Beliefs when all I seek is Truth.

And you will never Discover the Truth if you rely only upon yourself, because you have no way to know what the Truth is.

 

[Bird123]

No, it is not simply because they say they are Messengers, it is what they do to prove it.

I am not that arrogant. I know I could never do what they do because they have a spiritual nature I do not have.

I do not blindly accept anything. I go into everything with open eyes. It has never been an either/or. One can follow a religion and its teachings and still discover their own reality. Religion is just a guide.

You certainly should not accept it someone just because he told he was a Messenger from God. You should check him out thoroughly if he is worth checking out.

You can discover the truth about the material world that way but you won't discover the Truth about God.
Anything you believe you have Discovered about God will just be your imagination. God cannot be Discovered, God is revealed by Messengers.

That's right. God is at a Higher Level and that is why you cannot ever get to where He is at.
God is unsearchable, unapproachable, self-subsisting. Not even the Messengers know the Essence of God.

“No one except Thyself can unravel the secret of Thy nature, and naught else but Thy transcendental Essence can grasp the reality of Thy unsearchable being. How vast the number of those heavenly and all-glorious beings who, in the wilderness of their separation from Thee, have wandered all the days of their lives, and failed in the end to find Thee! How great the multitude of the sanctified and immortal souls who were lost and bewildered while seeking in the desert of search to behold Thy face!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 64

You think you know more than the Messengers of God, but you have no clue what they know.

Who determines what is petty, you?

You constantly make straw men. God does not want anyone following blindly or accepting without investigating. and that is not what religious people do. We are self-reliant but we also depend upon God. The Messengers are just teachers, guides. How would children fare with no parents or teachers guiding them?

And you will never Discover the Truth if you rely only upon yourself, because you have no way to know what the Truth is.

your quote:No, it is not simply because they say they are Messengers, it is what they do to prove it.
My Answer: I do not know what you define as proof, however what I have seen proves they do not come from God.

your quote:I am not that arrogant. I know I could never do what they do because they have a spiritual nature I do not have.
My Answer: If one is unwilling to reach for the sky how can they ever hope to SOAR???

You place so many limits on yourself. I do not think you really want to find God at all.

WE are all Spiritual beings in our true natures. No one has any greater Spiritual nature than anyone else. It's just another wall you create for yourself.

your quotes of more walls you create for yourself:You can discover the truth about the material world that way but you won't discover the Truth about God.
God cannot be Discovered,
God is unsearchable, unapproachable, self-subsisting. Not even the Messengers know the Essence of God.

your quote:You think you know more than the Messengers of God, but you have no clue what they know.
My Answer: God's actions speak to who God is. Your messenger's actions speak to who they are. When they value petty things, I see they do not know God. If they know more, why do they not speak to who God really is? They only want followers. Do they tell you to follow? This is not God.

your quote:Who determines what is petty, you?
My Answer: This very question tells me you do not know God. If the messengers were to teach you about God why do they not know? Why do they value petty things like Blaming, Judging, Condemning, Payback, intimidation, coercion or thinking some children are more important or better in the eyes of God?

The Real Answer to your question is that each must decide for themselves what is petty or not. Each must decide for themselves which are the Best choices.

Our actions show God and the world who we are and what we need to learn. Our actions determine the lessons we are to learn. God's great educational system depends on free choices. I can point, however choosing those best choices should never be left to anyone but oneself.

Why do those messengers not speak of this? Why do they want to make your choices for you? Why are they defining good and evil? That also will be each person's choice.

You can paint up those messengers all you want, however the plain truth is they do not really know God. God is not there.

With God, it will never ever be we and they. Think US!!!

your quote:How would children fare with no parents or teachers guiding them?
My Answer: Are parents and teachers always right? A person needs to expand beyond the sum of those teachings. WIDEN THAT VIEW!! Expand your knowledge!!

your quote:And you will never Discover the Truth if you rely only upon yourself, because you have no way to know what the Truth is.
My Answer: You have never been alone. When one understands enough, one will get a visit. Until then, you would not listen. Ego and a narrow view gets in the way of so much learning and Discovering. When God shows up, God won't be talking holy books. One will be struggling just to keep up. Intelligence exists far far far above mankind.

WE all already know God. You will know then too.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

your quote:No, it is not simply because they say they are Messengers, it is what they do to prove it.
My Answer: I do not know what you define as proof, however what I have seen proves they do not come from God.

your quote:I am not that arrogant. I know I could never do what they do because they have a spiritual nature I do not have.
My Answer: If one is unwilling to reach for the sky how can they ever hope to SOAR???

You place so many limits on yourself. I do not think you really want to find God at all.

WE are all Spiritual beings in our true natures. No one has any greater Spiritual nature than anyone else. It's just another wall you create for yourself.

your quotes of more walls you create for yourself:You can discover the truth about the material world that way but you won't discover the Truth about God.
God cannot be Discovered,
God is unsearchable, unapproachable, self-subsisting. Not even the Messengers know the Essence of God.

your quote:You think you know more than the Messengers of God, but you have no clue what they know.
My Answer: God's actions speak to who God is. Your messenger's actions speak to who they are. When they value petty things, I see they do not know God. If they know more, why do they not speak to who God really is? They only want followers. Do they tell you to follow? This is not God.

your quote:Who determines what is petty, you?
My Answer: This very question tells me you do not know God. If the messengers were to teach you about God why do they not know? Why do they value petty things like Blaming, Judging, Condemning, Payback, intimidation, coercion or thinking some children are more important or better in the eyes of God?

The Real Answer to your question is that each must decide for themselves what is petty or not. Each must decide for themselves which are the Best choices.

Our actions show God and the world who we are and what we need to learn. Our actions determine the lessons we are to learn. God's great educational system depends on free choices. I can point, however choosing those best choices should never be left to anyone but oneself.

Why do those messengers not speak of this? Why do they want to make your choices for you? Why are they defining good and evil? That also will be each person's choice.

You can paint up those messengers all you want, however the plain truth is they do not really know God. God is not there.

With God, it will never ever be we and they. Think US!!!

your quote:How would children fare with no parents or teachers guiding them?
My Answer: Are parents and teachers always right? A person needs to expand beyond the sum of those teachings. WIDEN THAT VIEW!! Expand your knowledge!!

your quote:And you will never Discover the Truth if you rely only upon yourself, because you have no way to know what the Truth is.
My Answer: You have never been alone. When one understands enough, one will get a visit. Until then, you would not listen. Ego and a narrow view gets in the way of so much learning and Discovering. When God shows up, God won't be talking holy books. One will be struggling just to keep up. Intelligence exists far far far above mankind.

WE all already know God. You will know then too.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I do not see anything new to respond to here, so until next time, Happy Trails.