Why did God create mortal bodies?

Nimos · Aug 26, 2020

thomas t said:
Nature points to a loving God, as I see it.

So natural disasters, starvation, animals hunting and killing each other etc, you consider that an expression of God's love as well? Meaning this was the only way he could have made nature?

thomas t said:
I'm not the judge, God is. God shared anything in nature, I think. The information is there. The Norse might have believed in different gods, too. But God looks into their hearts, lets see how he judges them (that's when Jesus returns, as I see it).

No, that is dodging my question, remember God gave us the ability to see the difference between good and evil, otherwise Adam and Eve really got screwed.

My question was not aimed at God, but at what you think?

And to give you an example and to let you be the judge:

I don't know you as a person, so my assumption is that you are a good and decent person.

Let's say I have some vital information and I have two options. I can either share them with you, which would save your life or I could not share them which you, which would kill you.
Do you consider me choosing not to tell you these information, an act of good or an act of evil?

thomas t said:
no, if you repent ...your sins against God are forgiven. But that does not necessarily mean that all your victims forgive you, too. This is how I see it.

Yes, but you explained earlier, in case of this event happening, which, let's be honest is extremely likely to occur. They (The murderer, victims, next of kin) would have to come to an agreement in heaven.

I also pointed out, that there is no suffering in heaven, if we are to believe Revelation. Furthermore I raised the issue, that in certain cases, the victim is not in a position to even come to an agreement with the murderer as they are in hell. Another issue, is that the next of kin to the victims might not agree how to solve it.

There is a lot of conflicts here, which you don't seem to even acknowledge, but rather that these will be solved in some magical way. As I told you, in regards to there being no suffering, there is basically two options as I see them, 1) People will be emotionally dead. 2)There will be a brain wipe, so people can't remember anything. In which case our current life is completely meaningless.

Neither of these options seems good to me, and a cowardly way of dealing with the issue of justice and good and evil.

What im interested in, is whether you see any other solution to these conflicts? Where everyone, including the murderer and the next of kins, assuming that the victims are burning in hell. Walk away satisfied with a solution, so there are no hard feeling and suffering?

thomas t said:
no that's not true. He does not want that the humans he created resort to murder. It's his creation. He's the owner.

But you agree that he doesn't punish murderers right? It's potentially the victim that is ending up in hell, the murderer might, if they don't repent, but at least they have a long time to figure out if they want to or not.

thomas t said:
...that don't count for salvation....

No, but it can buy them time, again it's a matter of whether you repent and accept Jesus as your savior, before your life end.
So time is what really matters here, so you can reach the state where you accept Jesus. The murderer, just as the victim can both end up in hell as we have already established. What seperate them, is that murderer might have a better chance of coming to terms with their sins and repent. Whereas the victim was robbed of that.

thomas t said:
why not convert on the spot instead. If his faith is strong enough to hire personnal to protect him just for the sake of having more time to convert... why not convert right where is at that very point of time? It's three minutes.

Because, even if you repent today, you might risk making a sin the next day. Again it's extremely easy to sin, the moment you even think that maybe Jesus is not the savior, you are in problem. The moment you even think of another man's women with desire, you have sinned. Again if you by accident pick up some trash that is not yours, you are basically a thief, etc.

Or does it work so you can repent one time and afterwards just go nuts?

thomas t said:
no. I say if you steal and don't return as you can, you have the wrong attitude, I think. No cherry picking here.

But a person that is starving, might not have the means to return anything, so they should burn in hell? or just repent afterwards?

URAVIP2ME · Aug 26, 2020

thomas t said:
If you, as a JW, have a problem with me using the word "hell"... let me put it differently:
Being saved means being saved from the place as described in Mt 8:12. This is how I see salvation.

Thank you for your reply.
Since most people think the Bible's hell is that false religious-myth hell of burning forever as being Scripture there needs to be an understanding.
So, there is No problem with using the English word 'hell ' but to me there needs to be an understanding because biblical hell aka is the temporary grave.

Yes, I think I understand when you say saved as described at Matthew 8:11-12.
Jesus uses that occasion to confirm that 'non-Jews of faith in Jesus' will be favored and blessed, thus can be saved.
As for the faith-less Jews they will be thrown into the darkness outside............
Those corrupted Pharisees were in spiritual darkness outside.
Those natural fleshly Jews who did Not accept the kingdom opportunity offered first to them will be rejected.
Thus, the gentile people of the nations (Luke 7:7-9) are then welcomed to recline at Jesus' table with him.

thomas t · Aug 27, 2020

URAVIP2ME said:
Thank you for your reply.
Since most people think the Bible's hell is that false religious-myth hell of burning forever as being Scripture there needs to be an understanding.
So, there is No problem with using the English word 'hell ' but to me there needs to be an understanding because biblical hell aka is the temporary grave.

Yes, I think I understand when you say saved as described at Matthew 8:11-12.
Jesus uses that occasion to confirm that 'non-Jews of faith in Jesus' will be favored and blessed, thus can be saved.
As for the faith-less Jews they will be thrown into the darkness outside............
Those corrupted Pharisees were in spiritual darkness outside.
Those natural fleshly Jews who did Not accept the kingdom opportunity offered first to them will be rejected.
Thus, the gentile people of the nations (Luke 7:7-9) are then welcomed to recline at Jesus' table with him.

this doesn't address the topic

thomas t · Aug 27, 2020

Nimos said:
So natural disasters,

...are part of the game.
Starvation? Other peoples can help those in need.
A starving person can't return anything. Once recovered, if this happens, they can.
Not all thieves suffer starvation though, as you surely know. It's a special case you're hinting at.

Nimos said:
My question was not aimed at God, but at what you think?

And to give you an example and to let you be the judge:

I don't know you as a person, so my assumption is that you are a good and decent person.

Let's say I have some vital information and I have two options. I can either share them with you, which would save your life or I could not share them which you, which would kill you.
Do you consider me choosing not to tell you these information, an act of good or an act of evil?

I'm not the judge, if I may repeat myself, so I won't answer this question.

Nimos said:
I also pointed out, that there is no suffering in heaven, if we are to believe Revelation.

you mixed up heaven and New Jerusalem. I told you already. Please don't go around in circles with me.

Again, stealing does not necessarily involve picking up trash. All sorts of things get stolen today.

Once you are saved you're saved. A sin cann not dissave you. If you lose faith that's another matter though...
So it's better to convert on the spot than anything else you could do. Including protection for your earthly life. Conversion is a one-minute thing to do.

God punishing murder? If you repent, Jesus carried it on the cross. But still - this doesn't mean the victim will forgive you too. So they will have to reach an agreement after death, I think. That's what I think might be the case of a murderer converting to Christ. This is my speculation.

Nimos said:
in case of this event happening, which, let's be honest is extremely likely to occur. They (The murderer, victims, next of kin) would have to come to an agreement in heaven.

If the victim is in hell, I could imagine that Jesus tells the newly converted former murderer to go the the next of kin and plead forgiveness - while he's still on earth. When they say no, he has a problem indeed.

But this is something that could be found in the internet. Have you heard of anything like this? Since you say "it is extremely likely to occur..."
Have you read any testimony of a former murderer coming to Christ?
I'd like to know, is this entirely hypothetical in nature here ... or can you actually refer to anything in real life? Please provide sources! Real sources, please. If there are so many former murderers in Christianity, as you say... where are they?

thomas t · Aug 27, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I do not know the context of this conversation, but why do you think that nature points to a loving God?
The way I see it, nature points to a God that doesn't give a twit about animals.....

Not a sparrow falls, give me a break...
But that sparrow still falls, doesn't it?

Movies come to a close. So does life on earth.

Nimos · Aug 27, 2020

thomas t said:
...are part of the game.
Starvation? Other peoples can help those in need.
A starving person can't return anything. Once recovered, if this happens, they can.
Not all thieves suffer starvation though, as you surely know. It's a special case you're hinting at.

But your argument was that nature points to a loving God. So when natural disasters occurs, it just part of God's play? How is that an expression of love, when God "plays" with human and animal lifes?

I already told you, that people can steal due to a lot of reasons, but for God to be considered loving, doesn't he have to work in all situations, shouldn't he be able to see, whether a person steal out of greed, need or mistake? Yet your idea of God, doesn't seem to care at all.

thomas t said:
I'm not the judge, if I may repeat myself, so I won't answer this question.

First of all no one is getting judged here, it's just an example.

But if we take it to the real world, if a person commits a crime, you have no opinion of whether they should be punished or not? And you would have no issue, if every single person said the same thing? So everytime a crime, murder, rape occurred the villain could just nice and easy walk away, because everyone would just stand there and throw their hands in the air, saying "Im not the judge"?

Or is it just that you don't want to take part of it, so others have to carry that burden for you?

thomas t said:
you mixed up heaven and New Jerusalem. I told you already. Please don't go around in circles with me.

But you do agree that New Jerusalem descend from heaven right? When you read the bible and the verses about heaven, about who is allowed to go there etc. Do you get the impression that Jesus and God is surrounded by people that suffers?

thomas t said:
Again, stealing does not necessarily involve picking up trash. All sorts of things get stolen today.

Yes, I already pointed that out, that according to the bible, these are all considered sins, that gets you thrown in hell.

thomas t said:
If the victim is in hell, I could imagine that Jesus tells the newly converted former murderer to go the the next of kin and plead forgiveness - while he's still on earth. When they say no, he has a problem indeed.

But how can the next of kin give forgiveness on behalf of the victim? that is like saying the victim is worth nothing. Sure, the next of kin, can offer the murderer forgiveness for their suffering, but that doesn't solve the issue of the victim.

thomas t said:
Since you say "it is extremely likely to occur..."
Have you read any testimony of a former murderer coming to Christ?

What does it matter? Neither you or me, can know whether the testimonies are true or not.

thomas t said:
If there are so many former murderers in Christianity, as you say... where are they?

Looking at history, how many people have been killed and murdered in the name of God and Jesus?

Looking at witchcraft alone:
Current scholarly estimates of the number of people who were executed for witchcraft vary from about 40,000 to 100,000. The total number of witch trials in Europe which are known to have ended in executions is around 12,000.

Exodus 22:18
18 - “You shall not permit a sorceress to live.

I guess God forgot to inform people that witches weren't actually real?

Trailblazer · Aug 27, 2020

thomas t said:
Movies come to a close. So does life on earth.

So what?
How does that prove that God gives a twit about the animals who suffer and die?

thomas t · Aug 27, 2020

Nimos said:
Yet your idea of God, doesn't seem to care at all.

That's not true. I just said that stealing does not always involve poverty.

Nimos said:
But if we take it to the real world, if a person commits a crime, you have no opinion of whether they should be punished or not?

yes I do, yes they should be punished. Why are you asking me.

Nimos said:
Or is it just that you don't want to take part of it, so others have to carry that burden for you?

the state should punish murder, not me. I'm not the state.

Nimos said:
Do you get the impression that Jesus and God is surrounded by people that suffers?

no, I don't. That doesn't mean that we can safely infer that suffering does not exist in heaven other than New Jerusalem.

Nimos said:
Yes, I already pointed that out, that according to the bible, these are all considered sins, that gets you thrown in hell.

ah - this was your point. I had no idea where you were getting at.
No, this is stealing in special circumstances, I think. Bible teaches that you get shut out from heaven for real things. This is how I see it, at least.

Nimos said:
But how can the next of kin give forgiveness on behalf of the victim? that is like saying the victim is worth nothing.

weren't you the one that came up with this idea? Should I be searching for your quote?
Honestly, I don't know how this issue is going to be handled.

Nimos said:
What does it matter? Neither you or me, can know whether the testimonies are true or not.

this would show if you're making your scenario entirely up.
Furthermore, you stated that these scenarios are "more than likely to occur!" So please the onus is on you to back it up.

Nimos said:
Looking at history, how many people have been killed and murdered in the name of God and Jesus?

Looking at witchcraft alone:
Current scholarly estimates of the number of people who were executed for witchcraft vary from about 40,000 to 100,000. The total number of witch trials in Europe which are known to have ended in executions is around 12,000.

Exodus 22:18
18 - “You shall not permit a sorceress to live.

I guess God forgot to inform people that witches weren't actually real?

Look, the Catholics did this. I'm not a Catholic. Discuss the issue with them.

thomas t · Aug 27, 2020

Trailblazer said:
So what?
How does that prove that God gives a twit about the animals who suffer and die?

God is a loving God, I think. He sends them life. At least for a while when they are on earth.
I hope this will answer this, too:

Nimos said:
ut your argument was that nature points to a loving God. So when natural disasters occurs, it just part of God's play? How is that an expression of love, when God "plays" with human and animal lifes?

Nimos · Aug 27, 2020

thomas t said:
yes I do, yes they should be punished. Why are you asking me.

Because you said you wouldn't judge in the example I gave you, so was wondering if you would judge anything at all... and apparently you do judge people. So I was just confused.

thomas t said:
the state should punish murder, not me. I'm not the state.

But you are the state, together with everyone else. Obviously I don't mean that you should swing the axe as an executioner, but your voice together with everyone else is the state, deciding how you want to handle murderers. Some countries have death penalty and some don't. If you live in a decent democratic society, then you will be heard just as everyone else will.

thomas t said:
weren't you the one that came up with this idea? Should I be searching for your quote?
Honestly, I don't know how this issue is going to be handled.

I didn't come up with the idea. You said that anyone that repent and accept Jesus as their savior will go to heaven. I then asked you what would happen to the victims if they didn't manage to do this in time, which resulted in them going to hell and I questioned the justice and goodness in that. Which led to the murderer having to come to an agreement with the next of kin. I was merely pointing out all the conflicts in this setup. So don't get me wrong, im not blaming you for not being able to answer it, because I doubt anyone can, because it makes absolutely no sense.

thomas t said:
this would show if you're making your scenario entirely up.
Furthermore, you stated that these scenarios are "more than likely to occur!" So please the onus is on you to back it up.

What im saying is likely to occur, is that a murder repent and accept Jesus as their savior, given the fact that, at least in the US, a large group of those in prison affiliate as being Christians. Whether they were Christians before or after I don't know. Whether they truly repent and accepts Jesus I don't know. Exactly as it would be wrong of me, to just accept their testimony, as I have no idea if its true or not, as I can't read minds.

But based on the percentage of people calling themselves Christians that are inmates, I don't think im wrong when I say that it is likely to occur, that a murderer speaks the truth and repent his sins and accept Jesus as savior and therefore goes to heaven. While the victim is stuck in hell. Im not saying that it happens every single time, which in the end doesn't matter anyway, one example of this happening, is enough to cast doubt on this whole idea.

thomas t said:
Look, the Catholics did this. I'm not a Catholic. Discuss the issue with them.

So do you think that all the blame is on the Catholics or should God's maybe accept some of it as well? Again let me remind you of the quote from the bible:

Exodus 22:18
18 - “You shall not permit a sorceress to live.

As far as I know, God haven't said anything about this not still being true?

CG Didymus · Aug 27, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I do not know the context of this conversation, but why do you think that nature points to a loving God?
The way I see it, nature points to a God that doesn't give a twit about animals.....

Not a sparrow falls, give me a break...
But that sparrow still falls, doesn't it?

What is the Baha'i explanation why God wanted the Hebrews to sacrifice animals to him?

Trailblazer · Aug 27, 2020

CG Didymus said:
What is the Baha'i explanation why God wanted the Hebrews to sacrifice animals to him?

I do not know that there is a Baha'i explanation.
Why God allowed that to happen I cannot really say, but we both know that God has allowed some horrendous things to happen.

thomas t · Aug 28, 2020

Nimos said:
Because you said you wouldn't judge in the example I gave you, so was wondering if you would judge anything at all... and apparently you do judge people. So I was just confused.

your example was one that only God can solve, not me.

Nimos said:
But you are the state, together with everyone else.

I alone - that's not the state. The state of Germany does punish murderers already. I mean that's obvious. Debating the obvious is quite time consuming. Please don't steal my time.

Nimos said:
I didn't come up with the idea.

you wrote

Nimos said:
Furthermore, what if we are talking about a mass murderer and the next of kin to the victims doesn't agree on how to solve it?

I didn't mention any next of kin in any post before. So you came to me with that idea.

The idea of God judging everyone makes great sense, I think - even if salvation comes by faith alone.
The fact that I can't solve the question what happens to a repented murderer, whose victim goes to hell.... does not mean that the entire set-up doesn't make sense! I just can't solve a detail of it. But I'm not the judge anyway. As you said!

Witch hunts are a Catholic invention, so all the blame is all on them. Granted: witch hunt is mentioned in the OT, however, you can't just pick and chose one such device and put it into practice. Either you keep the law in total or you don't, all else is cherry picking. So I won't say anything in its defense.

You cite a study that shows that 50% of prison inmates are protestant. That doesn't mean that they're saved, though.

Many protestants simply don't believe in God. This study in German language says: ein Drittel der Evangelischen, die die Frage nach „einem Gott“ nicht mit „Ja“ beantworten [...] "one third of the protestants don't answer the question "is there a God" with yes".
But out of the two remaining thirds that do believe in God - only a minorty actually believes in Jesus, I suggest. However, this is what saves you according to Romans 10:10 (own interpretation). Affiliation to the protestant church or the belief that a God exists... does not save you from anything on the individual level, I think. It just means you belong to a religion.

Still, you didn't show one single case that says that a murderer repented and became a Christian. It might be entirely made up.

Thomas

Nimos · Aug 28, 2020

thomas t said:
your example was one that only God can solve, not me.

What do you mean, only God can solve it? It's not a question with a right or wrong answer, its one based on your opinion.

thomas t said:
I didn't mention any next of kin in any post before. So you came to me with that idea.

What does it matter whether or not, I brought it up or you did, or someone completely different did? It doesn't remove the issue.

thomas t said:
You cite a study that shows that 50% of prison inmates are protestant. That doesn't mean that they're saved, though.

I never said that... My examples are not absolutes, but based on the possibility of whether or not it could occur, given the statistics that we have.

thomas t said:
Still, you didn't show one single case that says that a murderer repented and became a Christian. It might be entirely made up.

What would it matter, I mean do you believe everything someone tells you? Even if bothered spending the time going around asking murderers if they had repented and whether they were telling the truth or not, how could I possible verify it anyway? So how would the information help you?

Here is an article, does that help?
78 Inmates Repent, Accept Jesus and Are Baptized on Somang Prison’s 4th Anniversary
http://www.kukmindaily.co.kr/article/view.asp?page=&gCode=7111&arcid=0008910918&code=71111101

That is why I say, that giving the amount of people calling themselves Christians, it is plausible that one of them have repented and is truthful about it. So lets say of those 78, is it plausible that one of them is telling the truth, while the 77 others are lying about it?

thomas t · Aug 28, 2020

Nimos said:
What do you mean, only God can solve it? It's not a question with a right or wrong answer, its one based on your opinion.

it's a problem only God can solve, so my opinion is worthless, I think.

Nimos said:
What does it matter whether or not, I brought it up

Because it was a strawman fallacy then. You brought an argument up... only to burn it down afterwards, as I see it. So why bring it up in the first place? Should I go ahead and post the quotes.

Nimos said:
I never said that... My examples are not absolutes, but based on the possibility of whether or not it could occur, given the statistics that we have.

well, in our discussion we've been focusing on the wrongdoings of purportedly saved persons. It was in that context that you came up with a study about religious persons. These two may or may not be interlinked with each other. Noone knows.

Nimos said:
78 Inmates Repent, Accept Jesus and Are Baptized on Somang Prison’s 4th Anniversary

...after having committed their crimes. That's an important point.

Still, your source is of interest here.
I assume, all 78 of them are telling the truth.
If it's "only" those kind of folks who committed robbery and such... they could easily go back to the places where they've stolen from and return the money. After their prison sentences.
If their victims are still alive... the first way to go after prison, will lead them to their former victims pleading forgiveness and doing everything they can to settle the issue. That's at least what I suppose for them to be the case. I may be wrong here.
Now, what happens if their victims are dead, you ask? And in hell? At this point I don't know an answer. But this doesn't mean there isn't any.

However, maybe there aren't any former murderers among the 78 you were talking of. And Jesus chose only minor criminals. Still, you didn't cite a single source that says that a former murderer repented and gave their lives to Jesus. You initially came up with a case of dead victims.

In case you do provide a source in this sense, I won't have the answers at hand.

Thomas

syo · Aug 28, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I am really angry at God because He created humans and animals with mortal bodies such that they will die.

I believe 1 000 000 percent in reincarnation. We are not stuck in our bodies. We become something NEW a NEW body. We only fear death, because rich people have destroyed society and they make our current bodies live in hell.

Trailblazer · Aug 28, 2020

syo said:
I believe 1 000 000 percent in reincarnation. We are not stuck in our bodies. We become something NEW a NEW body. We only fear death, because rich people have destroyed society and they make our current bodies live in hell.

I agree that We become something NEW a NEW body (see below) but I do not believe in reincarnation, and I think that any God who would send souls back to this world to be born into another body and live through this life again would be a cruel unjust God. I would never want to come back to this world which is a storehouse of suffering.

Of course, everything is relative, so if it is between extinction and reincarnation maybe the latter would be preferable. However, I do not believe those are the only two choices. I believe that when we die our souls live on in another world and take on a new form which is spiritual, not physical. What that form will be like is a complete mystery, just as the afterlife is a mystery.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

URAVIP2ME · Aug 30, 2020

thomas t said:
this doesn't address the topic

Mortal bodies, yes starting with Adam mortal bodies.
Mortal bodies with the prospect of living forever on Earth if one obeys God.
Everlasting life on Earth for mortal human bodies.
However, when the word ' hell ' enters into the picture one needs to know the difference between a permanent religious-myth hell and temporary biblical hell.

Trailblazer · Aug 30, 2020

URAVIP2ME said:
Mortal bodies, yes starting with Adam mortal bodies.
Mortal bodies with the prospect of living forever on Earth if one obeys God.

With all due respect, the Bible does not say that mortal bodies can live forever on earth.

URAVIP2ME · Aug 30, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I do not know that there is a Baha'i explanation.
Why God allowed that to happen I cannot really say, but we both know that God has allowed some horrendous things to happen.

The animal sacrifices were leading up to Jesus.
Allowing and causing are two different things.
God did Not allow sacrifices as mentioned at Jeremiah 32:34; 2 Chronicles 28:3
Satan challenges all of us - Job 2:4-5
Touch our ' flesh....' (loose physical health) and we would Not serve God.
Both Job and Jesus under adverse conditions proved Satan a liar and so can we.

Why did God create mortal bodies?

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