The horsemen of Revelation

InChrist · Apr 29, 2020

URAVIP2ME said:
Again, what do you find contrary to the Bible at www.jw.org _____________
The 'Israel of God' is from Scripture - see Galatians 6:16
Jerusalem ' above' is Now the seat of government - see Galatians 4:26
Because ' Jerusalem ' above ' is the ' mother ' of the Christ ' the anointed one ' who proved to be Jesus. Not anointed by fleshly birth but at baptism.
Jerusalem ' above ' is thus also the ' mother ' of Jesus' ' spiritual brothers ' of Romans chapter 8 who proved to be saints or holy ones of Daniel 7:18.
Christians No longer a Jew by fleshly descent, Nor by national descent but by God's spirit, a spiritual Jew - see Romans 2:28-29
Peter does Not speak of a nation on Earth but a ' spiritual nation' - please notice 1 Peter 2:9; 1 Peter 2:5

Maybe this article will help you understand my perspective and help you see that the scriptures ever spiritualize Israel or replace Israel with the church/ Christians.

“Before the cross of Christ, mankind was divided into two groups: Jews and Gentiles. The Old and New Testaments both make very clear what caused this distinction. It was the covenants God had made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and with their descendants through Moses. These covenants were for Israel alone and separated her from all other nations on the face of the earth, making God's "chosen people" absolutely unique. Israel was segregated from other peoples by the Mosaic law and by her special relationship with the One who calls Himself "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" (Lev:20:24,26, etc.).

The important distinction between Jews and Gentiles is maintained consistently throughout the Bible: "...so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth" (Ex 33:16); "...for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people that ye should be mine" (Lev:20:26); "And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his...own people for ever" (1 Chr:17:21-22); "...ye [Gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God..." (Eph:2:12).

After the Cross a new entity came into existence—the church that Jesus Christ promised He would build (Mt 16:18). As a result, there are now three divisions of mankind: Jews, Gentiles and the church. Paul tells us that we are to "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God" (1 Cor:10:32). It is absolutely essential to understand that these three groups exist side by side in today's world, to distinguish between them, and to recognize that God deals with each differently.”

Jews, Gentiles, and the Church

URAVIP2ME · Apr 29, 2020

Left Coast said:
For reference, here's the relevant portion of Daniel 9. Nothing about Israel halfway being brought back to the land for decades before repenting.
"Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city: to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing, and the troops of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering cease; and in their place shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator.”

People in the 1st century wondered if Messiah had or was arriving - Luke 3:15 - being in ' expectation ' of his coming.
They would have arrived at this 1st-century time to be understood from what Daniel wrote involving the 70 weeks at Daniel 9:24.
The 69 weeks of years ( 483 years ) of Daniel began in 455 BCE when Artaxerxes authorized Nehemiah to restore and rebuild Jerusalem- Nehemiah 2:1-8.
Thus, from 455 those 483 years ended in the year 29 CE when Jesus was baptized with holy spirit thus becoming Messiah at that time.
Jesus as Messiah was 'cut off ' in life by death - Daniel 9:26 - in order to save mankind from eternal extinction in 33 CE
The remaining time of the figurative week would then end in the year 36 CE - Acts of the Apostles chapter 9; Acts of the Apostles 10.

Good-Ole-Rebel · Apr 30, 2020

Left Coast said:
All questions are made up, that's the nature of language. English didn't fall from the sky. Your incoherent dodge won't get you anywhere with me.

More of your interpretation, still no relevant answer. We're done, till you have one.

No, you formed your question around something you said. Not something I said.

That's fine.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel · Apr 30, 2020

URAVIP2ME said:
Thank you for your reply, What Jesus said is found at Matthew 24:37-39.
I think my reply was in connection that some people think there will be a 7-year tribulation (Rev. 7:14,9)
There was No 7-year trib. in Noah's day. The people did Not last 7 years once the rains came down.
There was No 7-year trib. in the year 70 when the Roman armies destroyed un-faithful Jerusalem.
So, in that respect, that pattern, the great tribulation will Not be a 7-year period.
Once the judgement call of Matthew 25:31-33,37 is made there is No reason to prolong the destruction of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-16.
Thus, the end will come hard and swift for the sake of the righteous who will inherit the Earth starting with calendar Day One of Jesus' 1,000-year reign over Earth.
Most people think only of a heavenly hope, do you think there could also be a soon coming earthly hope for us _________

I see. Well, there was also no 7 year period for Sodom and Gomorrah when God destroyed it either. There is no law or rule that God must use a 7 year period when He moves to destroy.

What is known as the 7 year Tribulation is the product of the 70 weeks of judgement God promised upon Israel in (Daniel 9:24) At the time Christ was killed 69 weeks had been accomplished. (Dan. 9:26)

Thus there is one week left, or 7 years. This week will begin when a future Roman prince makes a covenant with the Jews. Then in the middle of the week 3 and 1/2 years, he breaks the covenant, sets up the abomination, and turns on the Jews. (Dan. 9:26-27) Jesus specifically identified this time period in (Matt. 24:15,21) as the Tribulation.

Though the entire 7 year period is known as the Tribulation, the tribulation doesn't start until the last half. The first half will have the appearance of peace and prosperity as the anti-christ will bring peace to the mid-east and fix the economic problems with his 666 system.

The judgement in (Matt. 25:31-46) is the judgement of nations after the Tribulation is over. The basis of this judgement will be how the nations treated the Jews who were persecuted under the anti-christ during the Tribulation. Did they help them or turn them over to him? Those that helped are the saved, sheep, nations. Those that didn't are the damned, goat, nations. The saved nations then will enter the millennium period, the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth.

As Christians our hope is a heavenly hope. That is our place. There will always be an earth as God will create a new heavens and earth. (Rev. 21:1-2) And there will be the new Jerusalem. Israel's place is the earth, even in the eternal state. And of course much could be said concerning this.

My point is this. God doesn't always destroy in the same manner. The 70 weeks are for a purpose. There is one week left. It must be and will be fulfilled.

Good-Ole-Rebel

URAVIP2ME · May 6, 2020

As Jesus taught from Psalms 37:9-11 that humble meek people will inherit the Earth, or the earthly realm of God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44.
Only people like those of Luke 22:28-30 who are to be the holy ones or saints of Daniel 7:18 are resurrected to heavenly spirit life.
Adam was never offered heaven, Adam was offered everlasting life on Earth as long as he kept God's Law.
Messiah was baptized in the year 29 and was 'cut off' in death in the year 33 so the end of 70 weeks came in the year 36 - Acts chapter 10.
No 7 year tribulation as there was No 7 year tribulation in Noah's day in which Jesus compared at Matthew 24:37-38.

Super Universe · May 7, 2020

Vee said:
I know a lot of people attribute all this to coincidence, but I don't believe in coincidences much, so when I look at many of the things happening the last few decades, and especially in recent years, the image of the horseman of Revelation comes to mind: the fiery horse of warfare, the black horse of famine, the pale horse of death and the white horse of righteousness.
Wars all over the place, food scarcity affecting large amounts of people and disease (we even have a pandemic to worry about at the moment) are all too common. I can't help but see a connection.

You're a JW. You put all of your eggs into one chicken and that chicken is getting older every day. This armaggedon thing has to happen soon otherwise you will be too old to experience paradise earth.

It's not going to happen. You're not going to get to experience paradise earth because you're not going to live long enough to see it. The earth will become a paradise, in about 1,000 years when men evolve and become meek but we have to evolve and make the earth a paradise to live on. God is not going to do it for you.

Vee · May 9, 2020

Super Universe said:
You're a JW. You put all of your eggs into one chicken and that chicken is getting older every day. This armaggedon thing has to happen soon otherwise you will be too old to experience paradise earth.

Nobody knows when it will happen. The Bible gives clues but no dates so it might still take a while. Am I still going to be around? I would like to be, but if I'm not, that's okay too. The world doesn't revolve around me and death is not the end of everything, so we'll see.

People think I'm a dreamer for believing that God will save us, but you're even more of a dreamer than I am if you think that humans will evolve and become meek. Good luck with that.

Super Universe · May 9, 2020

Vee said:
Nobody knows when it will happen. The Bible gives clues but no dates so it might still take a while. Am I still going to be around? I would like to be, but if I'm not, that's okay too. The world doesn't revolve around me and death is not the end of everything, so we'll see.

People think I'm a dreamer for believing that God will save us, but you're even more of a dreamer than I am if you think that humans will evolve and become meek. Good luck with that.

Nobody knows when it will happen? Over the years the Jehovah's Witness magazines have claimed many times that "The End Is Near!" They've even made predictions that armaggedon would come in certain years and it didn't.

The Apostle John confused the natural destruction of the earth with a God caused armaggedon. In about a billion years the sun will expand and consume the earth. God will not cause it to happen, it will be a natural event.

The Apostle John also confused an individual person's judgement day in the afterlife with a judgement day for all of humanity. There is no such thing as a judgement day for all of humanity.

I'm a dreamer because I think humans will evolve and become meek? Humans won't have a choice in it.

Vee · May 9, 2020

Super Universe said:
Nobody knows when it will happen? Over the years the Jehovah's Witness magazines have claimed many times that "The End Is Near!" They've even made predictions that armaggedon would come in certain years and it didn't.

"Near" is not a date.
The organization of JW has never predicted a date for the end of this system, however some individuals did, and that was wrong of them. That was based on their opinion and not on the Bible and it was not backed by the organization.

Super Universe · May 9, 2020

Vee said:
"Near" is not a date.
The organization of JW has never predicted a date for the end of this system, however some individuals did, and that was wrong of them. That was based on their opinion and not on the Bible and it was not backed by the organization.

1897 "Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874," (Studies in the Scriptures, vol. 4, p. 621).

1899 " . . . the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Revelation 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced," (The Time Is at Hand, 1908 edition, p. 101).

1916 "The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ's Reign, began in 1873," (The Time Is at Hand, forward, p. ii).

1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection," (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89).

1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914," (Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262).

1923 "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1923, p. 106).

1925 "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year," (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1925, p. 3).

1925 "It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work," (Watchtower, Sept., 1925, p. 262).

1926 "Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything," (Watchtower, p. 232).

1931 "There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah's faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1917, 1918, and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time . . . and they also learned to quit fixing dates," (Vindication, p. 338).

1941 "Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon," (Watchtower, Sept. 15, 1941, p. 288).

1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? . . . Missing from such people were God's truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them," (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968).

1968 "Why are you looking forward to 1975?" (Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1968, p. 494).

Vee · May 9, 2020

Super Universe said:
1925 "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year," (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1925, p. 3).

/QUOTE]

There have been some key dates in world events in the last 150 years or so and those dates have their importance and meanings, but with regards to the date of Armageddon, the highlighted sentence sums it up. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes. The Bible itself says in Matthew 24:36 that "the day and hour nobody knows".

Hockeycowboy · Aug 7, 2020

Super Universe said:
1897 "Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874," (Studies in the Scriptures, vol. 4, p. 621).

1899 " . . . the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Revelation 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced," (The Time Is at Hand, 1908 edition, p. 101).

1916 "The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ's Reign, began in 1873," (The Time Is at Hand, forward, p. ii).

1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection," (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89).

1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914," (Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262).

1923 "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1923, p. 106).

1925 "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year," (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1925, p. 3).

1925 "It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work," (Watchtower, Sept., 1925, p. 262).

1926 "Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything," (Watchtower, p. 232).

1931 "There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah's faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1917, 1918, and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time . . . and they also learned to quit fixing dates," (Vindication, p. 338).

1941 "Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon," (Watchtower, Sept. 15, 1941, p. 288).

1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? . . . Missing from such people were God's truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them," (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968).

1968 "Why are you looking forward to 1975?" (Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1968, p. 494).

Sir,
Did you read what you posted?

Hockeycowboy · Aug 19, 2020

sayak83 said:
You forget the 1st World War, the 2nd World War...or almost every such crisis that occurred in human history quite a lot.

The ride began in 1914, the foretold "beginning of troubles" -- Matthew 24:8, CEV

The evidence is powerful:

“Ever since 1914, everybody conscious of trends in the world has been deeply troubled by what has seemed like a fated and predetermined march toward ever greater disaster. Many serious people have come to feel that nothing can be done to avert the plunge towards ruin.”—Bertrand Russell, The New York Times Magazine, September 27, 1953.

The London Evening Star commented that the conflict “tore the whole world’s political setup apart. Nothing could ever be the same again. If we all get the nuclear madness out of our systems and the human race survives, some historian in the next century may well conclude that the day the world went mad was August 4, 1914.”–London Evening Star, quoted in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, August 5, 1960, and The Seattle Times, August 4, 1960, p. 5.

“Half a century has gone by, yet the mark that the tragedy of the Great War [World War I, which started in 1914] left on the body and soul of the nations has not faded . . . The physical and moral magnitude of this ordeal was such that nothing left was the same as before. Society in its entirety: systems of government, national borders, laws, armed forces, interstate relations, but also ideologies, family life, fortunes, positions, personal relations—everything was changed from top to bottom. . . . Humanity finally lost its balance, never to recover it to this day.”—General Charles de Gaulle, speaking in 1968 (Le Monde, Nov. 12, 1968, p. 9).

“In 1914 the world lost a coherence which it has not managed to recapture since. . . . This has been a time of extraordinary disorder and violence, both across national frontiers and within them.”—The Economist, London, August 4, 1979.

-- Excerpts from Reply To: 1914 – what happened? – Heaven Net

sayak83 · Aug 19, 2020

Hockeycowboy said:
The ride began in 1914, the foretold "beginning of troubles" -- Matthew 24:8, CEV

The evidence is powerful:

“Ever since 1914, everybody conscious of trends in the world has been deeply troubled by what has seemed like a fated and predetermined march toward ever greater disaster. Many serious people have come to feel that nothing can be done to avert the plunge towards ruin.”—Bertrand Russell, The New York Times Magazine, September 27, 1953.

The London Evening Star commented that the conflict “tore the whole world’s political setup apart. Nothing could ever be the same again. If we all get the nuclear madness out of our systems and the human race survives, some historian in the next century may well conclude that the day the world went mad was August 4, 1914.”–London Evening Star, quoted in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, August 5, 1960, and The Seattle Times, August 4, 1960, p. 5.

“Half a century has gone by, yet the mark that the tragedy of the Great War [World War I, which started in 1914] left on the body and soul of the nations has not faded . . . The physical and moral magnitude of this ordeal was such that nothing left was the same as before. Society in its entirety: systems of government, national borders, laws, armed forces, interstate relations, but also ideologies, family life, fortunes, positions, personal relations—everything was changed from top to bottom. . . . Humanity finally lost its balance, never to recover it to this day.”—General Charles de Gaulle, speaking in 1968 (Le Monde, Nov. 12, 1968, p. 9).

“In 1914 the world lost a coherence which it has not managed to recapture since. . . . This has been a time of extraordinary disorder and violence, both across national frontiers and within them.”—The Economist, London, August 4, 1979.

-- Excerpts from Reply To: 1914 – what happened? – Heaven Net

Nonsensical.

Hockeycowboy · Aug 19, 2020

sayak83 said:
Nonsensical.

Not at all.

The world has changed drastically since 1914. I posted much evidence which agrees. Read the link. Tons of evidence is given.

Saying "nonsensical" means nothing. Providing evidence to the contrary would mean something.

sayak83 · Aug 19, 2020

Hockeycowboy said:
Not at all.

The world has changed drastically since 1914. I posted much evidence which agrees. Read the link. Tons of evidence is given.

Saying "nonsensical" means nothing. Providing evidence to the contrary would mean something.

The world continues to change every year, every decade. Why not 1491? Or why not 1945 with the nuclear explosion? Why not the Justinian plague? Show me a metric that shows that somehow 1914's change was more significant in some way than the countless others that have come and will come?

ppp · Aug 19, 2020

sayak83 said:
The world continues to change every year, every decade. Why not 1491? Or why not 1945 with the nuclear explosion? Why not the Justinian plague? Show me a metric that shows that somehow 1914's change was more significant in some way than the countless others that have come and will come?

Pick a year - any year

Hockeycowboy · Aug 19, 2020

sayak83 said:
The world continues to change every year, every decade. Why not 1491? Or why not 1945 with the nuclear explosion? Why not the Justinian plague? Show me a metric that shows that somehow 1914's change was more significant in some way than the countless others that have come and will come?

I did not post those editorials & news accounts, others did....like Bertrand Russell, Charles de Gaulle, historians, etc.

Read them.

sayak83 · Aug 19, 2020

Hockeycowboy said:
I did not post those editorials & news accounts, others did....like Bertrand Russell, Charles de Gaulle, historians, etc.

Read them.

I am very well versed in history of the 1st world war. There is nothing there to suggest anything you are saying. I can furnish many opinions and articles where experts say that any of the other dates are world-changing as well.

Hockeycowboy · Aug 19, 2020

sayak83 said:
I am very well versed in history of the 1st world war. There is nothing there to suggest anything you are saying. I can furnish many opinions and articles where experts say that any of the other dates are world-changing as well.

Well, do it, please. Let’s compare notes.

But, again, I’m not saying it....they are.

and I agree.
One other thing: it’s not the historical events of WWI. It’s the aftereffects, the repercussions it ushered in, on society’s infrastructure. It’s still being felt today.

The horsemen of Revelation

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