Proof of Islam?

Are there also regular attacks upon Muslims around the world including India by Hindus and Indian Nationalist Radicals and in South East Asia by Buddhist Extremists? Have there been attacks upon Muslims even before 9/11 and other famed attacks by Osama Bin Ladin such as the Genocide in Bosnia by the Serbian Orthodox Christians?

Haha, I'm glad you figured out that DVMAZ thing!

Anyway, I had an amazing dream just now and I'd like to note all the parts I recall.

Something about travel and parts of the world, travel through air, track, sea, and seeing advertisements then experiencing this amazing water facility where you can dive into water and the water is full of in-depth knowledge like these whale models and shark and sea creature models which have their anatomy on display or you can go inside.

Yunus is Oannes who taught all his people and they believed.

That facility was vast, and full of happiness and knowledge.

I invited someone to visit it with me, seemed to be a young nerdyish skinny guy, and I invited many, and the girls there were attractive but looked smart as well and wore glasses too and seemed like the elite in knowledge and classes.

Then there was a straight highway where ahead of me was a car playing music and having the music show in lights displayed on a bar inside the back across the back and moving with the music and matching to it. It had a bar above with the colors of the rainbow, green on the edges and yellow in the middle and red in the very middle but it never reached red and was moving inwards from both sides in tiny bulbs. Under it was a blue bar which followed other sounds and looked like an audio visualizer sound bar thing and also moved inwards from the two corners symmetrically and up and down but none of the music was very loud even though it was good music and percussive and enjoyable and had nice long synthesized sounds and whatever.

I followed this car but I seemed to be in the passenger seat on the right and somehow directing the vehicle with arrows forward and sideways.

The music went up an ascending exit and a vehicle came in the way behind it which also seemed somewhat like an authority or police, but I took the ramp as well, somewhat abruptly and with some stress as the use of these buttons seemed difficult and my mother had seemed to be driving but then was not there so I took them drivers seat and steering wheel where she had been while going up the ascent, exit 63.

I quickly turned and the steering wheel seemed a little tight and difficult but I was happy I could drive and I drove and parked at a hidden garden, a strange place concealed by trees, including dark red leaves and other things and was fully covered and shaded.

I walked inside and explored the corners around a large elevation of Earth in the middle which was a higher layer. On the lower level surrounding it was not too much space but I saw tiny ants on the ground as well as a kind of constant music of the voice or humming coming from above and a green multi leaf leaf like those plants with many long very thin triangular leaves or sections brushed my head as I headed to the path up and I briefly became concerned of tiny bugs but thought even if there were I could wash them out. Then I climbed up a path made leading to the elevation, which appeared to be a cemetary even though I'm not sure now if I saw headstones, as well as a daycare or something, and my mother was there on the right, and there were young children like toddlers and babies inside the daycare and from this place and they were doing this humming and producing this very pleasant music as they were being trained to do and they were sleeping or relaxing with their eyes shut and the one I saw visible from the doorway was in the shade with a small wet maybe towel on their forehead and everything was so they "rested in peace" and relaxed and meditated as they produced this humming reverberating song. It was as if my mother may also be somehow involved in their care and helping and was very happy, which always makes me cry when I think of it or brings hot tears to my eyes and running down in real life. She was not in thatm daycare though but seemed or was sensed to be outside in the light, but both light and shade were all pleasant here.

I then switched to scene where I'm discussing with my father who was made young on a bed and my mother who was sitting off to the right again but near, and my father questioned me about the meaning of the dream and also said I lied about some section regarding falling from a tightrope which never seemed to occur but was in the facility of knowledge and all that water and learning activities. He said why did I suggest that I would fall towards another nearby rope instead of straight down, and I said that is the way it appeared, when a person thinks they will fall they don't realize they can't fall towards what they see but due to physics fall straight down, which in this case was into the water and was safe anyway. He was satisfied by this though I had been annoyed at the suggestion I had lied or been wrong or thought wrong for a moment or had feared.

Somewhere before I slept or in the midst of the dream or in between waking and sleeping had been something about 13 then with a 19 year old, 33 now, as ages, and that I could make music albums entitled based on the various girls I've known who loved me variously in various ways.

I then discussed with my father that the exit seemed to be 63 and may have been 73 but I was pretty certain it said 63, and that this seemed to regard death, but that he has already exceeded that age.

Upon waking or before, I wondered if it had to do with my death, and then I became somewhat concerned about my health and diet habits and good deeds.

The good news, whatever the case may be, was that my parents were together and in the hidden garden and a place of comfort and ease and beautified and I was there too with free access everywhere.

Every part of the dreams interpretation was then made clear to me by the 7 symbols given to me.

The great facility of water (Domain 2 Mitra-Varuna) was regarding my learning and joy for learning and invitation to knowledge and teaching. In every scene it started up in the Air as many angled and sighted vision (Domain 1 Zeus Panoptes, Indra, Amun of a Thousand Eyes). The road in the vehicle (Domain 4) and other things like trains and tracks and other kinds of vehicles and travel seemed later to be representative of life's path or occupation and work, and the music (Domain 6) was all pleasant and represented signs, guidance and praise of God, Apollo, my Lord. The authority vehicle and ground I saw with the insects leading up the ascent may have been Death, the exit and place of the afterlife (Domain 3). The Garden and new life and lots of "life" such as the insects and plants (Domain 5) and the "Hidden Garden" which is the meaning if the term Jannah etymologically, was where I drove to and entered.

The dream repeatedly brings tears to my eyes, not tears of sadness, but just tears almost without explanation, and really hot tears too, I've had tears brought multiple times regarding it, especially the death and afterlife parts and deaths of my family implied but it was all good.

The Qur'an states "All is from Allah" and that includes all dreams, though their meaning and interpretations may be unclear or unknown in some cases.

The portion of the knowledge place of water makes me so extremely happy. There was an idea and feeling that the place was filled with the elite in science and academics and the people blessed to be swimming in the vastness of knowledge, and they were young and there were not that many overall though and the place was just joy and so fun to swim through. The garden also was very pleasant and the bed, its sheets seemed light purple like the bed and sheets I am on now. Even the driving was pleasant and I was pleased about the music and buttons and even that I could control the steering wheel and was safe.

Why I am mentioning this here in this thread is not only to write it somewhere and save it and so in writing it also remember as I just woke up but also because dreams and mystical insight and knowledge can be a big part of the traditional and ancient religious experience which can be important also in Islam and Muslim families.

The person driving the vehicle with the music seemed to be the Musician themselves, who created that music, and was playing it and putting it on display both audibly and through the lights (Domain 6) on the back of the moving vehicle which remained my guide and which I joyfully followed all my life and up into the ascent until it became very temporarily blocked by the black authority vehicle which covered its sight.

My Lord is One, who manifests these things and reveals knowledge and his aspects and attributes and domains of activity which cover all distinct activity.

None of the 6 or 7 were hostile in relation to me, I only saw good things, I saw nothing bad. I even explained my way out of that slight distress when my father asked me about the tight rope illusion which along with the appearance of the authority, the taking over of the wheel and its initial stiffness, and the concern about bugs from the leaf (which I consider that leaf a kind of blessing or initiation) and the slight concern in being questioned but each was corrected and resolved or explained almost immediately or made peaceful and happy almost instantly. Its possibly the most positive spiritual seeming dream I've ever had! With the most symbols and I was so happy to have had it explained and be given the key to it, the explanation seemed to occur even within the dream as well as immediately after!

From another thread
A call to atheists...let's have at the Ten Commandments
but relevant to my writing in this thread:

" Exodus 34:1-28
New International Version
The New Stone Tablets
34 YHWH said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain. 3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the mountain;not even the flocks and herds may graze in front of the mountain.”

4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as YHWH had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then YHWH came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, YHWH. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “YHWH, YHWH, EL, the compassionate (Rahum) and gracious (Hanun), slow to anger, abounding in love / goodness (he'sed) and faithfulness / truth (e'met), 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”

8 Moses bowed to the ground (way yiqqod 'arsah) at once and worshiped (way yistahu). 9 “Adonay” he said, “if I have found favor / grace (hen) in your sight / view (be'eneka), then let Adonay go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance.”

10 Then YHWH said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, YHWH, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today.
(0)I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.

12 (1)Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you.

13 (2 or 1 extended)Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.

14 (3 or 1 extended)Do not worship any other god('el), for YHWH, whose name is Jealous (Qanna, Qanna-EL), is a jealous God (EL).

15 (1)“Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and (1 or 2)you will eat their sacrifices.
16 (1 extended or 3)And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

(Do not make any sort of treaty or contract with idolators, nor eat from their sacrifices, nor marry their idolatrous children or any idolators)

17 (1 extended, 2, or 4)“Do not make any idols.

18 (2, 3, or 5)“Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

19 (3, 4, or 6)“The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock.
20 (3, 4, or 6)Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.
(3, 4, or 6)“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

21 (4, 5, or 7)“Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

22 (5, 6, or 8)“Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the (5, 6, 7, 8, or 9)Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year.

23 (8)Three times a year all your men are to appear before HA ADON YHWH, ELOHE YISRAEL
24 (0)I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land (8)when you go up three times each year to appear before YHWH your EL.

25 (9)“Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me (9 or 10?)along with anything containing yeast,and (9 or 10)do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.

26 (6 or 10)“Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of YHWH your EL.

(9 or 10)“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”

27 Then YHWH said to Moses, “Writedown these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”
28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

Now I will tell everyone that these are the 10 commandments they regularly fail to follow!

I also will show other religious people the concept of God here, and how YHWH very clearly seems to be described as a bodily figure which in the Second Temple Period some took to be a "Second Power in Heaven".

I think that I'd probably not cook a goat in its own mother's milk no matter the age of the goat, but find it Kosher or Halal to cook a goat in milk.

I enjoy "goat curry" which may at time have dairy involved. I also wonder if that goat business is just in general or about offerings, but I'll take it as general.

The way it jumps around and is disorderly seeming is very jarring, even in the case of the usual ten commandments.

You've armed me with something magnificent though, something I can use as a great tool and weapon in several ways by bringing up these verses.

I have always had a hatred for YHWH due to how YHWH is described and behaves, the whole concept, just like my hatred for the New Testament Jesus (who the LDS Mormons say is One and the Same Person, that Jesus is YHWH, The Father is Elohim a bodily man born of parents who Brigham Young suggested was Adam but others rejected, and the Holy Spirit is a Bodiless Ghost similar to Demons who are Bodiless and Satan who remains without a Body).

Now, in reading this again, I have a renewed hatred of YHWH and the the Bible.

I now also see again why both Atheists and Christians seem to think of the concept of God as a literal cartoony humanoid on the clouds, because it absolutely says so and gives it so much detail which makes it quite hard to say it didnt say so or didn't mean it.

To hell with that God concept, yuck!

Though, admittedly, if any super human humanoid alien came down and basically threatened to blow me up if I don't grovel, I'd grovel, because I would be very afraid and not want to die or suffer, not knowing what the alien freak is capable of.

Though, luckily, no such alien freaks are around currently, so I can say Fie to you YHWH you big puff!

YHWH is as described in these sorts of stories is incredibly inferior to some other models of God, I can say with confidence now that whoever takes this story as true and literal in all these details and takes God as a formed being coming down on a cloud and walking around, has a completely different belief system, and I think they are crazy and foolish and wonder how they could be so sick as to ever believe such a disturbing and cartoony thing or why they would ever worship such a literal creature? Perhaps because they are afraid of it and don't have any better concept with which to feel confident in?

I am so grateful I was not indoctrinated to fear this book. "

duncan said:

Hello Dagon, I always enjoy reading you, just to be clear your belief is a combination of different beliefs, Is that correct ?

Click to expand...

My religion is Quranic Islam as its basis and as a kind of "Proto-Religion", as that is the best and clearest book and representative available.

The framework is extremely simple. If you read "Two Logics One Miracup(s)" which I can link for you as well, and some other things I linked which are pastebin collections of things I wrote recently, it explains the concept of God I believe in.

At its simplest though, without explanations and justifications given as to why, the belief is as follows:

God is completely Other from the "stuff" or "information" generated moment to moment and eliminated moment to moment by God, we are an experience which is made of "stuff" otherwise which can be called "information" which God generates, but God is "non-information" and is literally "Like Nothing", "Subhan".

God generates in every detail every instance and is unconditioned, meaning God affects but is not affected or effected by anything produced, which is all "within" God, and all the information has no real place or space or substance or dimension which are somewhat illusory factors. (Ocassionalism , Pan En Theism, Berkeleyan Idealism).

God can generate anything, convince anyone of anything, make up a whole history or change it, one moment you could be experiencing an entirely different thing and the next like it never happened and you have a whole long story, just like how in a dream occassionally there may be acknowledged facts and history instantly without question and then you wake up and it turns out that was a dream and you do have legs and didn't lose one years ago.

Gods power is total and absolute, God is the only living thing in a sense with any real and total unobstructed agency. Whatever we experience is entirely produced by God without share or partners, that includes the actions of people evil or good and our reactions to such, this is a point which greatly irritates many people, but comforts others. A human is as living as leaf blowing in the wind, an appearance, generated and detailed by God alone, we can not do anything and we scarcely exist and only exist so long as God generates some instance where we think we do since it says so or we seem to in the experience.

God creates whatever God wills, and there may be experiences and realities generated and eliminated which are nothing at all like any experience known to us. God creates the experiences which are wholly viewed by God as opened or "as is" or "as experienced" which is "as created", meaning all inclusive, every bit of it is information and God is the one accessing it "encompasses all vision but is encompassed by none".

God is the Only Power so is OmniPotent, OmniScient, and OmniPresent, All Encompassing (which is because Allah encompasses in every sense the flat layer of experience we are experiencing and which we are at any moment, behind it on "all sides" even though there are no real dimensions to it, and behind every detail moment to moment of what occurs).

There is simply no such thing as an experience or information produced or present without the presence or knowledge of Allah who is generating it, supporting the moment, controlling every perceived element including every thought involved.

God is not information though, so can never be seen or experienced as "just God" except through information, such as reasoning, activity, a sensation given, which are all "things" and "stuff" and "information".

Wipe it all away and you have Allah alone, who is likened to death, a dreamless sleep, non-information, not blackness or whiteness or dimensions or distances or sizes or borders or space or a vacuum or any form of information whatsoever, having the power to generate, the drive to execute the power, and the choice to do or not to do or what to do which is made up of so much of what is not done, creating the nuanced "shapes" of every unique and singular moment experienced.

You can read more details about that and why that is so here:

Two Logics One Miracup(s) - Pastebin.com
ttps://pastebin.com/mL92xeJQ

"
What is the position or belief of each and every person visiting this thread and crossing by this thread?

I'd like people to state what they consider themselves to be and their position(s) please!

I am an Anti-Biblical Theist, Napoleonic Universal Monotheist.

I would like people who believe in the Old Testament Literally, symbolically, Old but not New, New Testament Only, all the variants to clarify what you consider yourselves to be or hold to?

I reject the God described in very important sections of the Jewish Biblical scriptures and implied in the Christian Scriptures.

I fully reject the descriptions given of "YHWH" in their literal forms and the statements attributed to YHWH such as the generational punishing of children for crimes and sins of parents which is wholly unjust and vile.
Mazda & Yahweh: the same god?
ttps://www.religiousforums.com/threads/mazda-yahweh-the-same-god.182765/page-2#post-6662108

What are you each and why? What did you start as and move into and feel yourself being pushed towards potentially?

I've wondered a similar thing in my other recent thread:
Moving Towards Atheism or Theism? Shifts, New Beliefs, Etc.
ttps://www.religiousforums.com/threads/moving-towards-atheism-or-theism-shifts-new-beliefs-etc.233545/

I try to see the affinity people may have here:
Fictional Deities, which would you choose and why?
ttps://www.religiousforums.com/posts/6652121

The Esoteric or Occult Beliefs of Some but not me:
Occult Spirituality and Holy Guardian Angel
ttps://www.religiousforums.com/posts/6664809/
(since I reject complex systems for how God manifests creation and believe only in God and God's Power to instantly Generate which is Occasionalism, see Wikipedia Occassionalism)
Occasionalism - Wikipedia
ttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occasionalism
Aztec philosophy - Wikipedia
ttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_philosophy

I just don't understand how people can hold on to something they say they are reading which goes against so much of our human common sense and calculations about right and wrong, just and unjust, real and unreal?

There are other more sophisticated and sterile, improved and cleaned up models out there in the Upanishads, Prajnaparamita Sutras, and Qur'an even.

In my view, however religious you think you are, if you think there is a humanoid coming down in a cloud as shown in my earlier post above where I show:
Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 34:1-28 - New International Version
Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 34:1-28 - New International Version
ttps://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+34%3A1-28&version=NIV

You have No God
Atheism: An Empty Shell of a Life
ttps://www.religiousforums.com/threads/atheism-an-empty-shell-of-a-life.233542/page-2#post-6663965
, since what you believe is wholly imaginary cartoonism, and its hard to believe you even insist on claiming to believe what should not be even possible to just believe since the concept is so ridiculous and you have not seen any such thing nor should you ever worship such a humanoid form if you can avoid doing so!

I call for you to abandon this blasphemous and poorly conceived God, the religion of Jacob wrestling a God or Angel and getting the name Isra El (Wrestles With God).

Abandon this poor conception of YHWH! It is tied to crucial parts of the Bible, so abandon those parts and abandon that deluded scripture!

Read the other scriptures and texts and see their superiority!

The Upanishads, The Prajnaparamita Sutras, the Qur'an at www.islamawakened.com/quran and abandon Man-God literalism, believe in an Abstract Non-Man God like the Power behind Nature and Reality, not a humanoid coming down in clouds like the Monkey King. "

Divine something for yourselves by using this method:
Live "Divi-nation" Magic Demon-stration!
ttps://www.religiousforums.com/posts/6655721

Evangelicalhumanist said:

You left something out, I'm afraid....

4. God exists and communicates with every person such that everybody knows what THEY need to know, irrespective of what other know-it-all bigots presume.
5. God exists and doesn't send messengers, but a bunch of charlatans pretend they've been sent by God.
6. God does not exist, but a bunch of charlatans pretend he does so they can fleece the sheep.
7. God exists, and communicates with sheep and other animals, but leaves humans to their own devices because he got tired of their stupidity.

Oh, and probably left out options 8 to 306, but I don't know what they are.

Click to expand...

I'll give you mine. God, ahem, The Devil I mean, was likened to a Cat in medieval times, just as Ahriman and Satan were likened to a Lion, and the story that Muhammed (Baphomet in Occitan) was very fond of cats made the Devil all the more a Cat-like being in the minds of many. It was already the case also that throughout History Venus, the Wandering Morning and Evening Star had been associated with the Cat as well, even in Northern Europe whenever "Friday" was mentioned, which happened to be the special day of congregation for the Saracens (Muslims) as well!

The Option there would be, God is in some ways like the ideas people have of Cats, that they toy with things, drop things, kill things, hide, pounce, and perform many other behaviors.

So, this God, Cat-like God of Evil, known to some as The Devil, does what he wants and has no real master, creates mischief or love and peace freely and at a whim, is uncontrolled, untrained, unconditioned Chaos, and people run after and react to whatever big changes it frequently brings about.

The Cat was thought to be the conduit by which the Devil placed an agent vessel upon the shoulder of Muhammed to whisper in his ear his instructions as his Familiar.

God can give a message to some people, then never again, or God can give a message to all people, and only make some understand, and this God can do like the meowing or chittering of a cat, if God so wills.

God, does not need to answer to humans, like a cat, God is independent of them.

So my God, who they know as The Devil, Mundus, The Power of Death, even Apollyon, The Great Old Dragon they call him, Fafnir the Black Dwarf or Dvergar they say! That God the Bundahisn says is responsible for Change which is Life Itself, and they call Allah, Ahriman, Angra Mainyu. That God whispers to all people, gives the message to all people, toys freely with all people, answers to no people, explains only to some people, can not be trusted by any people, and is free from every people, but guides and helps some people, somewhat, and all should be in terror of the Great Cat, who Sauron was originally based on when his name was: "The prototype or precursor Sauron-figure was a giant monstrous cat, the Prince of Cats. Called Tevildo, Tifil and Tiberth among other names, this character played the role later taken by Sauron in the earliest version of the story of Beren and Tinúviel in The Book of Lost Tales."

Tevildo, To D'evil:

Deo Foul, The Evil or Foul Spirit, Bolverker Odin Balgyr.

God does what God wills, and brings about every manner of chaotic confusion and wicked madness we see before us, and all are helpless before God, like mice in a bathtub! That is the God who Atheists know as Nature and Reality and Gamblers know as Lady Luck, The Ace of Spades, even The Joker.


You think I'm kidding?

No one hasn't seen God or God's Works, as everything you experience "Are God's (Meows)".


Moby Dick was Authored by God, as was This Song and Everything one may consider Good and Bad or Worse or Better:

There is No Other God than this Free Khaos.

Some more music I take as celebrating God and symbolically related to writings in my post above:
3.
ttps://youtu.be/UvxhrXlqPCM
0.
ttps://youtu.be/u6YLtw8YyzY
2.
ttps://youtu.be/5Sgi9mtsqG8
1.
ttps://youtu.be/iCzhNJnuerY
4. God Controls All Your Experience Down To Your Motion, You Are The Words Of God Manifest Moment To Moment (It took me years to find this song again and I'm so proud I was inspired in such a way as I was finally able to find it again! I originally found it years ago magically as well!)
ttps://youtu.be/56Vgv2wej8w
5.
ttps://youtu.be/boscR_9EE5Q
6.
ttps://youtu.be/A4wdbibV3IM

Ursa Major was frequently linked with the Central Pole or Axis which all the stars and heavenly bodies seemed to revolve around and so was associated with God as a symbol of the King of the Heavens and Ruler Over Everything:
ttps://youtu.be/R6dWH77cgFk

Wow, what strange music it whispered in my ear to look up, I've never heard these before:

ttps://youtu.be/Odqh8em3lH4

ttps://youtu.be/RhXmyWqsw_k

Deeje said:

This is the Creator you are speaking about, not some flawed evil human out for world dominance and abusing his power.
God had a purpose for our existence and wicked humanity is standing in the way of it being carried out.....
There is no afterlife spoken of in the Bible so the dead are not suffering somewhere....they are in an unconscious state. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; John 5:28-29)

You forget that God can see 'the end from the beginning' (Isaiah 46:10).....he can choose to know what every human will become.....as he did with Abraham and his bargaining with God over Sodom and Gomorrah. God would have spared the cities even if there was 10 righteous people in them......God knew that there weren't any.
Same in Noah's day.....God is not unrighteous.....humans are just not privy to all the details. Too many judge by what they think they know.....and judge God as if he was a flawed human...big mistake IMO.

I do indeed, but I don;t think you do. You seem very quick to throw the God of the Bible under the bus and then create another god who is much more appealing to you......of course, you have that freedom and God will not prevent you from making your choices....just remember that every decision we make, especially if it is judged on a false premise, will be judged by God's standards one day, not ours. Do we really have all the details? (Proverbs 18:13)

 baby murderers?...yep.....and all those ignorant fools who want to judge God by their own standards. We choose what we want to believe. I just wish you knew what you were talking about....

If you say so......we will all know soon enough I guess.

This is the Creator you are speaking about, not some flawed evil human out for world dominance and abusing his power.
God had a purpose for our existence and wicked humanity is standing in the way of it being carried out.....Their flaws are theirs, brought about by their own very unwise decisions......he has allowed humanity more than enough time to see the folly of trying to rule themselves without him......this is why he has to step in soon and rid the world of those who wish to do harm. If he doesn't we are on a path to environmental destruction and extinction of all life on this planet. Never before in human history has the human race possessed the power to destroy the earth and every living thing on it. (Revelation 11:18)

The personal hatred of the Jews by Hitler would have amounted to nothing unless his henchmen shared his evil mentality, goals and ambitions.
To equate God with Hitler is a very twisted version of things IMV.
One has the legal right as Universal Sovereign to carry out his will as he sees fit...he needs no one's approval or permission......the other had an agenda that was to promote himself as a German version of Jesus Christ. Salvation was to come through his Arian race and his Third Reich. Nothing remotely alike.



What on earth are you talking about? Do you have any idea of the circumstances surrounding your erroneous reference? You act as if God commanded it.....he foretold it....the prophet who brought that message was reduced to tears at the very thought of it....but God did not cause it, he did not prevent it either.

The Jews had failed to honor their covenant to worship YHWH exclusively....there was no toleration for the worship of other gods because they had already agreed NOT to do that as one of the foremost terms of that agreement. It was the first of the 10 Commandments. But Israel fell to worshipping Baal. This resulted in God withdrawing from them and he did not prevent what happened to them because they had brought it on themselves. When Israel was faithful, no force on earth could conquer them or cause harm to them. They lost God's protection because they were disobedient. What happened to them was at the hands of those who were not worshippers of the true God. They had no compunction about killing babies in a violent manner. Israel's laws would have prevented them from carrying out anything that heinous.

In the instances where God brought destruction on the wicked, it was mercifully quick.
We also have to remember that God has power over death. He can restore it as easily as he takes it.
There is no afterlife spoken of in the Bible so the dead are not suffering somewhere....they are in an unconscious state. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; John 5:28-29)

You forget that God can see 'the end from the beginning' (Isaiah 46:10).....he can choose to know what every human will become.....as he did with Abraham and his bargaining with God over Sodom and Gomorrah. God would have spared the cities even if there was 10 righteous people in them......God knew that there weren't any.
Same in Noah's day.....God is not unrighteous.....humans are just not privy to all the details. Too many judge by what they think they know.....and judge God as if he was a flawed human...big mistake IMO.

I do indeed, but I don;t think you do. You seem very quick to throw the God of the Bible under the bus and then create another god who is much more appealing to you......of course, you have that freedom and God will not prevent you from making your choices....just remember that every decision we make, especially if it is judged on a false premise, will be judged by God's standards one day, not ours. Do we really have all the details? (Proverbs 18:13)
 baby murderers?...yep.....and all those ignorant fools who want to judge God by their own standards. We choose what we want to believe. I just wish you knew what you were talking about....
If you say so......we will all know soon enough I guess.

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I thought I knew what I was talking about! You say its the creator I'm talking about! Why? Because your Mommy and Daddy and Pastor and Priest and your Brain and some Jewish folks Said So?

You say that God didn't command, but God has the right to command injustice, yet you can't believe that these are merely lies written by criminal human murderers proclaiming it is God commanding it? Oh, I don't know what I'm talking about? I HATE, HATE!!!!!!!! Having to look up verses constantly for people who say I don't know what I'm talking about! Lol at www.bible.cc a great resource! Bible Hub!

This is just some of what I'm talking about:

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”

Is that God Commanding it or just a Murderous Lunatic that you for whatever reason (Your Mommy) believe that God inspired and commanded such.

When the task wasn't completed properly, God "regretted / lamemted" yeah the one with Future Vision you described, the one the Jewish people are slandering in this book of Lies you adore, and then the spared King got chopped up into little bits to make Khorne the Blood God happy, or are these lies by a lying and wicked folk? Yet you believe it as the word of God with no cause to believe such wickedness is the Word of God.

Did you forget these parts or you just choose to act like I am making it up? These are liars who wrote lies, the Bible itself says so about the lying pen of the scribes? Do I have to go look it up for you too or God putting lies into the mouths of the Prophets? Sending Evil Spirits upon people? Want me to look it all up or do you believe that I know the Bible and will produce those quotes? Why couldn't your Mommy have just told you to trust me instead of Ancient Murderous Vile Lying Human Filth?

Numbers 31:17
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,

Psalm 137:9
Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

Look at this Wise Judge, Look how he cares and respects his own, look at this book you give to your family, friends, and children, and defend, aren't you thus as Rotten and Vile as its Lying, Thieving, Tricking, Despicable "Heroes"?:

Judges 19:24
Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them (rape them) and do to them whatever you wish. But as for this man, don't do such an outrageous thing (as to rape him as you requested)."
Judges 19:25
But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go.
Judges 19:26
At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight
Judges 19:27
When her husband got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold
Judges 19:28
He said, “Get up! Let’s go!” But there was no answer. So he put her body on his donkey and took her home.
Judges 19:29
When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel.

Judges 20:4
So the Levite, the husband of the murdered woman, said, "I and my concubine came to Gibeah in Benjamin to spend the night.

Anyway, this is a hideous tale from your beloved book of pornography.

Ezekiel 23:20
There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals (Members, Dicks) were like those of donkeys and whose emission (Cumming, Ejaculation) was like that of horses.

If you love this book, theres a big fire waiting for you and this book you love so much.

Abandon this Filth. Abandon the Devil's Bloody Book! What the Hell is wrong with you that you dare allow this vile trash in yourself or your family? Are you some kind of Pervert?

Abraham Lies Cheats Steals Pimps Out His Wife Tricks People to get his Wealth then says "No I didn't lie, my wife Really Is My Sister He He He" then Lot is raped by both his daughters in some more steamy disgusting hot porn. Esau has his blessing stolen by the liar fraud Jacob and it works!

This is a book of immorality, injustice, wicked lies. Let it go, abandon it, why do you hold on to lies made up by wicked humans to justify their sinfulness and sinning?

Liars, Cheats, Tricksters, Thieves, Treacherous People, Treaty Breakers, Children Killers, Civillian Killers, Rapists, These are VILLAINS who wrote a book to justify their crimes. Do you want God to throw you in hell along with these frauds? Abandon the book now!

Wolf Spirit said:

I am interested in finding out why Muslims believe Islam is the right religion, and discussing these points.
Alternatively, non-Muslims who have an idea as to why Muslims have this belief.

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For the extremely vast majority of them, it's the same reason for why christians believe christianity is the correct religion: from birth onwards, they were told this by figures of authority and the entire culture surrounding them played along in this indoctrinating, brainwashing undertaking.

There are almost 2 billion Muslims, so there must be a reason they believe

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Yes. They parents brainwashed them into it.

, however I have searched many different places and can’t find a reason I can accept.

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Likely because this wasn't spoonfed to you when you were still a kid extremely susceptible to manipulation and unquestioningly absord everything your parents, and other figures of authority, told you.


This, I consider to be the most important reason for why people believe (not just muslims).

This is why 99% of the time, you can accuratly predict the religion of a person based on their ethnicity / culture of origin, if the person in question is religious.

Someone that grew up in rural Afghanistan, almost certainly will be muslim.
Someone that grew up in Italy, almost certainly will be a catholic christian.
Etc


This, it seems to me is reason number 1 in the vast majority of cases for why people believe.
When you ask them why they believe though, only few of them will tell you "because that's how I was raised". Instead, they'll come with a wide variety of apologetics... Most of which has been spoonfed to them as well by the likes of WLC and what-not, or their pastors or other perceived religious authorities.

But those are off course mere attempts at rationalizations of their faith based beliefs.

Tokita said:

Thank you for your reply. It is good to see civilized responses. Dialogue is very important. Don't you agree?
I don't know how much you read into the Hadith. I have studied Islam for several years after I converted to it. What made me walk away were several issues:

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Thank you brother for you message, I agree with you that dialogue is very important as long as it is in the boundary of respect of each other and the beliefs of one another.

It is sad to read that you embarrassed Islam and left it because of doubts, every doubts I had I find the answer in the Quran and the authentique Hadith. allow me to share with you that Hadith.

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) observed: Be prompt in doing good deeds (before you are overtaken) by turbulence which would be like a part of the dark night. During (that stormy period) a man would be a Muslim in the morning and an unbeliever in the evening or he would be a believer in the evening and an unbeliever in the morning, and would sell his faith for worldly goods.

At the end, it is Allah who guide:

Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing 28:56

I will do my best and go through each point one by one, and give you my sincere answer.

Deeje said:

Well, do you feel better now?  Have you got it all off your chest? I think you need to settle down a bit before you blow a fuse. You are just a lone voice on an Internet forum.....don’t get carried away.

Are you trying to tell me that the Bible is full of lies and awful deeds because the savage times about which they were written include actions that you find distasteful?....and that your syncretic beliefs somehow make your version of God more palatable? Is everything that is in the Bible rubbish because they don’t sit well with your sensibilities? OK....that is your choice to believe....but it’s not mine. You have the bull by the horns in many of those scriptures because you fail to understand the background concerning the verses you have plucked out of context.

The God of Israel had to present himself as way more powerful than the gods of the pagan nations. That sometimes involved actions that spoke louder than words....the only language that was universal at that time, was to dish back what was meted out to Israel. (Deuteronomy 32:35)
Psalm 137 is about that vengeance.....so is 1 Samuel 15.
If Israel’s God was a whimp, how could he be seen as more powerful than the gods of those savage nations? Israel would have been laughed off the planet because any victory by those nations against whom they fought, was a victory for their gods.

Why do you think that the Pharisees rejected Jesus? Despite his miraculous abilities (which they found annoying) he was a whimp to them....a passive and gentle teacher who took the good news of his kingdom to the downtrodden sinners....the “lost sheep” whom they despised. Their Messiah was going to be a champion....a strong, political mover and shaker who would liberate their nation and elevate them in the eyes of the world. Instead all he did was expose them as the worst of hypocrites.

To try and put today’s sensibilities on the the conduct of people in those times is to completely misunderstand what God’s actions meant to the Israelites as well as to their enemies.

“A little knowledge is a dangerous thing”....so is thinking that God is not who he says he is, and that he did not leave his worshippers written instruction and guidance in a single book. Ignore the book if it upsets you, but for heaven’s sake, it sounds like you have a God who is basically the image of you. Did you find him, or invent him?...or is he a mixture of many gods?

BTW...I do ‘love’ the book for all the other stuff that is in it....the stuff you seem intent on ignoring. It’s your choice and you are welcome to your view....but you have no alternative that I would be remotely interested in.....just out of curiosity, how many share your particular faith? How do you know for certain that syncretic religion is acceptable to your monotheistic god? Syncretism to me is nothing more than shopping for beliefs in the great celestial supermarket. All I can say is....be careful when you get to the check-out.....

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Oh, its only syncretic ( perennial ) so far as I freely utilize anything I think I can towards monotheism, including verses from the Old Testament and New Testament. How many believe in what I believe? Anyone who truly believes and understands the "whimpy" sterilized Qur'an and subscribes to the teachings of Monotheistic Hinduism or what is in the Vedas and Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita, so? Whats that add up to? Majority of humanity without realizing it? I'm not a Trinitarian though, so that would eliminate all the hardcore Trinitarians, the Mormons are out too, but all those Nominal Christians who are "spiritual" and "don't think Jesus was literally God or literally the begotten Son of God" but a "a teacher, a prophet, who taught about God" and "taught God is One" and to worship God and not him, and also all the Universalist Unitarians. Throw in the Monotheistic Jews and Zoroastrians as well, and any who thought there was a Supreme Power over everything from the past.

So if its a numbers game, there are a lot who might make it by my standards.

Yet, why do you find it so hard to believe that the things that I mentioned weren't just made up by some humans?

What if a bunch of humans make a club and have a bunch of followers and write about all kinds of commanding wickedness stuff? You surely wouldn't believe them, you would showcase how what they are saying is nasty, but you're so attached to these things which don't even have anything to do with you or your ancestors most likely, just because of your rather recent in the scope of things familial affiliation to it most likely.

You'll repeatedly perform apologetics for ancient criminals.

You really think God ordered people through some Prophets to kill innocent suckling infants and even animals? That when they failed to complete this hideous task they were punished? Your only proof being "its in the Bible"? Why aren't you ashamed that you would subscribe to something like that? Its because you don't like the sterilized whimpy Qur'an because of the other sand people? I mean what is your reasoning to hold on to villainy? The people who are the role models are depicted as unjust too. Noah curses an INNOCENT who has nothing to do with anything that occurred in the story, David has a woman's husband murdered, things I hope you would never do, but who knows if this Devil's Book is your guide and sets your moral compass.

The New Testament says that people who support or perform the harming of children and innocents should be drowned, which you as a supporter of these things would probably deserve as well, no? Why not? Because someone told you God said they should do that and they did so why should they be blamed or you? Isn't that just being a bloody imbecilic goon?

Now, your job is to justify, always have a reason, give your reasoning, there are verses of this nature, be ready to justify your faith which means trust, why do you trust or believe this wickedness if you think about it. Well, probably because you want to, because your diseased faculties fit well with a book made by diseased minds and diseased heards, because you lack sensitivity, because you want to honor your Mommy even if it means lying about God's Commands and being attached to a book made by the Enemy, Your Enemy, because in all your smug confidence, between me saying "Do not say that God commanded injustice and that they who do deeds like slaughtering innocent and ignorant suckling babies are just, noble, or following God's statements" and you saying "Without any proof other than this Book by Jews, who I say is authored as a good book from God, it says God told them to kill suckling babies, and so they did, it also says God is good and just, so what is commanded by God according to these Jews is good and just. Who are we to question the Jews who wrote this?"

I think it is much more likely my sense of Justice and Righteousness and Support of Righteousness will save me before God than your poisonous book or the Devil's Lies you've been told by who Jesus even called the descendants of these evil ancients the Devil's Own Children in the Synogogue of Satan, they wrote lies and they wrote slanderous things, they claimed God commanded hideous things without giving you any evidence or proof of such, and you just believe it, like a dope. Justify yourself! You think I'm closer to hell?

Tokita said:

1. You mentioned that the Prophet was not killed. The Hadith tells us that he was killed but not in a battle - which is worse). He was poisoned by a Jewish woman after he ate mutton. When he asked her why, her response was because he killed her family and if he was a true prophet, he would be spared. But he died. If Mohamad actually spoke with Angel Gabriel, wouldn't the angel have given him a fair warning?

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There are a number of hadiths on the poisoning incident but here are the ones he quoted.

1. Narrated Abu Hurairah: The Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him (would accept a present, but would not accept alms (sadaqah). And Wahb bin Baqiyyah narrated to us, elsewhere, from Khalid, from Muhammad ibn Amr said on the authority of AbuSalamah, and he did not mention the name of Abu Hurairah: The Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him (used to accept presents but not alms (sadaqah). This version adds: So a Jewess presented him at Khaybar with a roasted sheep which she had poisoned. The Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him (ate of it and the people also ate. He then said: Take away your hands (from the food), for it has informed me that it is poisoned. Bishr ibn al-Bara' ibn Ma'rur al-Ansari died. So he (the Prophet) sent for the Jewess (and said to her): What motivated you to do the work you have done? She said: If you were a prophet, it would not harm you; but if you were a king, I should rid the people of you. The Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him (then ordered regarding her and she was killed. He then said about the pain of which he died: I continued to feel pain from the morsel which I had eaten at Khaybar. This is the time when it has cut off my aorta. Sunan Abi Dawud and Al Albani graded it as Hasan Sahih.

2. Narrated Sa`d: I heard Allah's Messenger (Peace be upon him (saying, "Whoever takes seven 'Ajwa dates in the morning will not be effected by magic or poison on that day." Sahih al-Bukhari 3. Narrated `Aisha: The Prophet (Peace be upon him (in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O `Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison." Sahih al-Bukhari

3. Narrated `Aisha: The Prophet (Peace be upon him(in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O `Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison." Sahih al-Bukhari

You see brother the poisoning incident in the life of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be on him, contains in it more than one amazing miracle, all proofs of his prophethood, contrary to the claim of his detractors. I also want you to bear in mind that the incident took place right after the Battle of Khaybar in the second month of 7 AH, corresponding to 629 CE. The Prophet died a full four years after that, in the third month of 11AH.

Some people asked me questions , because they doubted he was a prophet, questions like why did the food "speak" to Muhammad AFTER and not BEFORE taking a bite? Answer: it would still leave room open for doubt about his truthfulness. The reason for its speaking was not just to protect him and the Muslims, it was to prove that he was a true prophet. And it does just that. Had he announced before eating that it was poisoned, then nobody would have eaten from it and Bishr would not have died. There would be no proof that it was poisoned except his word. There were no means available in those days to chemically test the food for poison. If he had said, before eating, that it was poisoned, his modern critics would be saying that he accused the woman without proof and that he was not divinely informed. Would he have forced the woman to eat it herself or forced any of the Jews to eat it to prove that it was not poisoned? No, he would not, as this was not his character. Military leaders and kings always had someone taste the food before they ate. They may not even have accepted food from the enemy. But the prophet did not act as a king or a worldly leader. He showed the loftiness of his character and his status of a true prophet by accepting the food and eating from it. He wanted to show that he was willing to trust the Jews after the battle of Khaybar hoping that, perhaps, they will be guided. He did not act upon suspicion, even with the enemy. Yet, by eating, he did not show any lack of wisdom. Showing suspicions without proof is not the way to build a relationship. His eating from someone who may want to poison him shows his reliance on Allah to protect him. If Allah wanted him to die then no-one could keep him alive. Bishr died after the Prophet proclaimed that it was poisoned, not before. His death confirmed that the food was poisoned and that the Prophet had spoken the truth. The Jewess also confessed that she had poisoned the sheep. So now there was no doubt that it was poisoned. The poison did not take long to act upon Bishr. But, surprise! “The Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him (ate of it and the people also ate” Yet he did not die from it nor did anyone else die from it. A double miracle, supporting his prophethood! When the Jewess was asked why she did it, she said that if he was a true prophet the poison would not harm him. It did not harm him. He lived for four years after the incident. Does this not show that he was protected by God? My friend, if this miracle had happened to Jesus, peace be on him, you would be boasting about it and you would be claiming that it is proof that he was God! Muslims, on the contrary, simply say that Allah miraculously protected the Prophet Muhammad peace be on him.

Or questions like why did Muhammad not get cured by his own remedy of ajwa dates for poison? Why did God not miraculously cure Muhammad...? I have already given the answer above. Allah kept the poison from affecting him for four years. He did not need ajwa dates. Allah is the Controller of life and death. However, since Muhammad, peace be on him, lived another four years, he probably ate ajwa dates on many occasions. Some of your apologetic friends ask why he did not take ajwa dates to protect himself before eating. The answer is above. But an additional point is that maybe Allah caused him to forget to take precautions in order to bring about this miracle. My friend, how long will poison take to kill another man if it killed one man in a few hours or a few days? Have you ever heard of an incident in history when someone died from powerful poison but another survived it and lived without taking any medication for years? Do you know of a case when a group of people took poison and only one died from it? How long after ingesting the poison did the Prophet die? Four years! This is a miracle because it does not happen. Some reports say that the Prophet suffered from the poison during those four years and it is reported from one of his companions that he could see its effects upon his palate. Others who were close to him never mentioned this, though you will find many descriptions of him in hadith in all conditions. But let us assume that it is authentic, yet during those last four years he lived a very active life, more than many people of the past and present. He did not act as if he was sickened by poison. Look at his achievements during that time.

The Prophet was right when he said to the Jewess “Allah will not give you power over me.” Allah enabled him to live an active life and complete his mission in record time. Did anyone who had witnessed the poisoning incident say after his death, “this proves that he was a false prophet” and stopped believing in him?

Brother, do you not find these four years amazing from someone who was suffering from poison?

Wasn’t it the Divine Plan for him to accomplish his mission?
Did God not support him in those last years?
Would God have supported a false prophet all the way to the completion of his mission? Would he have allowed a false prophet to live for four active years after being poisoned (which, according to the Jewess, was supposed to prove him false) and then allow him to make the proclamation in God’s Holy Name “This day have I perfected for you your religion, completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as your religion.” (Quran, 5:3) ???

My brother, imagine if Jesus, peace be on him, had made this declaration before his death, how much you would be boasting about it?? The mere fact that the Qur’an announces the completion of his mission is sufficient proof that he was supported by God. So is it, then, surprising that after his mission was accomplished, he declared “now it is time for the poison to act upon me!” ??

Muhammad, peace be on him, did not accumulate worldly riches for himself. He lived the simplest of life and showed gratitude to Allah for giving him sufficient.

Why did he, peace be on him, say “now is the time for the poison to act upon me” only in his last sickness, a few days before his death? Why did he not say this on other occasions during the previous four years whenever he felt the poison acting up in him? Who inspired him to make this declaration shortly before he died?

Tokita said:

1. You mentioned that the Prophet was not killed. The Hadith tells us that he was killed but not in a battle - which is worse). He was poisoned by a Jewish woman after he ate mutton. When he asked her why, her response was because he killed her family and if he was a true prophet, he would be spared. But he died. If Mohamad actually spoke with Angel Gabriel, wouldn't the angel have given him a fair warning?

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Sorry I just remembered a roman catholic friend who asked me why then did Muhammad suffer greatly and die of the ill effects of poison? Can Muhammad be a prophet in light of the above? All prophets suffered. Jesus, peace be upon him, suffered, as Christians will admit. Allah wanted Muhammad, peace be on him, to die a martyr and to have the high status of martyrdom in his long list of achievements. The Prophet, peace be on him, taught that the suffering of a righteous person will erase for him any wrongs that he may have committed so that he can meet his Lord absolutely cleansed of sins or so that he may be elevated to the highest levels in Paradise. Prophets did not commit sins. So his suffering may be to elevate his status in Paradise. Let me add something here. Christian apologetics gleefully quote Surah 69:44-46, “And if he had invented false sayings concerning Us, We assuredly had taken him by the right hand, and then severed his aorta” and claim that since Muhammad’s aorta was severed by his own admission, he is a false prophet. Their reasoning and yours is not right. Let’s examine the words of the Qur’an carefully. What is the meaning of severing his aorta? The Qur’an is using this expression here as a threat. It means that Allah would not allow him to continue making false claims but he would meet his death swiftly. The expression is not being used in its everyday meaning. What is the everyday meaning of this expression “severing the aorta?” My friend, your aorta and my aorta will be cut off when we die. The severing of one’s aorta literally means that our blood will stop flowing to our hearts. This happens to everyone. Obviously, the Qur’an does not mean it in this literal sense as it would mean that Allah is threatening to make him die like everyone else dies!! It would then not be a threat but a meaningless statement! The Qur’an is making a threat. It means that his life would be stopped short and he would die swiftly. But you know that his life was not cut short as he lived for four more years and fulfilled his mission and died content that he had fulfilled his mission. My friend, the Prophet Muhammad, peace be on him, said “this is the time when my aorta will be cut off” Did he drop dead immediately? No, he made this statement four long, active years after ingesting the poison! And even after making the statement, he lived for days before he died.

His life was not suddenly cut short, which would have happened if he were an impostor. Before dying, he was informed that his death was near since his mission was about to be completed. So he was not alarmed when death came. There were many signs of the approach of his death. For example, in his Farewell Pilgrimage, he said: "I do not know whether I will ever meet you at this place once again after this current year." When Surah An-Nasr was revealed, ‘Umar wept. Asked why he wept though the Surah is proclaiming victory for Muslims, he said that it was announcing the death of the Prophet, peace be on him. During his last sickness, he was able to come into the mosque. Here he sat, facing the Muslims. Among the things he said was “A servant was given the choice to remain in the world or to meet his Lord, and he chose to meet his Lord.” Abu Bakr wept because he understood that “the servant” was the Prophet himself, peace be on him. Yes, he was given the choice to remain alive, maybe another few years, or to meet his Lord. And he chose the latter. Moments before he died, at intervals he uttered these words: "The most exalted Companionship on high. To Allâh we belong and to Him we shall return." So he was heard making the choice to return to Allah. “He led the Muslims in prayer for eleven days though he was sick. The total number of his sick days was either thirteen or fourteen.” (The Sealed Nectar) The poison acted only when Allah decreed that it should act so that the Prophet may achieve martyrdom. He lived until he was sixty-three years of age and died when and how Allah decided. According to Christians, the Jews plotted against Jesus, peace be on him, and they succeeded in having him killed! Why do you say that this proves Jesus was the son of God while the killing of the Prophet Muhammad proves that he was not a true prophet? My friend, although you believe that Jesus had to die for your sins, you still blame the Jews! And Christians continued to persecute them for centuries!

If the stories are true, then 4 years later with aorta pain sounds like a heart attack type thing and the heart stopping, but because the people think it was attributed to poison they say its the poison. All these stories come a good deal after the death by names which are not themselves verifiable as collected by Persians from another culture with their own issues. A person who doesn't much care of these tales and takes them with a big helping of salt may say that Muhammed did not know the medical realities of what killed him, except that if he knew anything he would know it is Allah who takes the lives.

The Qur'an repeatedly says "many they slew" and attributes the slaying of prophets also to Jewish people or "The Children of Israel (Wrestles with God) regularly.

Luckily, such matters and conjecturing play practically no role in my thinking or concerns regarding Islam, the whole topic of "Did Muhammed exist as and in the way that they claim, was he really poisoned, how did he die" are all irrelevant.

Its simply the fact that people bring up such things because they have no interest in the religion except to justify their avoidance of it.

Trailblazer said:

As I recall, I was just fed up with going to counselors and not getting any help for a serious problem I have.
So then one day I was doing an internet search related to this problem and that led me to find the Planet Baha'i forum and that led me back to the Faith and God.... that of course is the short version.

It is a little bit better but it is not that great... 
The problem is that I hold God responsible for suffering that is not brought on by me, so I hold God responsible for the particular problem I have that has yet to be resolved and probably will never be resolved until I die.

I hold God responsible for undue suffering because God created the material world in which people suffer, and some people suffer so much more than others. I know the religious apologetic but still something about that does not seem right.

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There is no apologetic from me. God is Evil, the Source of Evil, the Cause of Evil, in every little evil detail. The Muslims frequently lie and disregard and misread the Qur'an to conceal what it states boldly and frankly.

According to the Qur'an, everything, from your reception and interpretation and actions is from God, and your sickness and all sickness whether mental or physical or a distressing situation is God's fault, God's doing, precisely, and the reason why apologetics don't sit right or well with people is because they are simply lying, as if God will offended by the Truth when the Truth is God and God's Praise is simply the Truth, not like how we exaggerate about one another.

God is The Evil One. We worship God because we want to save ourselves from trouble, and there is no other God to escape to or which can save us from the source of Evil and all Harm but its purveyor and executor.

There is no "problem of Evil" as God simply is the Evil One, Creator and Sender of All Evils and not "Omnibenevolent.

We worship only to save our skins and get ahead. If God was benign and harmless God could be ignored or thrown in the trash and ignored and something else sought. No one needs to love God, only the wise understand and Fear God.

God can freely accept or reject prayers for any reason or no reason. That you think to pray at all and the words coming out of your mouth which lead to better or to worse for you are also God's doing, you're just playing out whatever God makes you play out, if God makes you crazy you will be the exact sort of crazy that God makes you to be word for word and act for act, God is the author and artist of your experiences. God can likewise make you sick, heal you, make you evil, torture you, you're simply helpless before God, which is why the religion is called "Surrender", acknowledging and coming to terms to the state you're already in, whether you know it and believe it or deny it, either of which God is making you do moment to moment anyway.

That is why Islam has long been considered heavy in its Fatalism and ideas of Qadr but which humans in general find very hard to swallow just because they like to think they contribute or have some agency and aren't just dancing corpses, but they are just dancing corpses animated by Allah who is painting every nuance of their experience and activity down to their thoughts, deliberation, and decisions. Even their will the Qur'an gives credit to God for if they will or desire this or that.

That is the real Quran and religion and can be reasoned clearly as I have in some writing explained in detail why it is so and must be so and can't be otherwise and isn't otherwise, but it is too disturbing for most to accept, yet there is no God but this, nor is any other mentioned in any scriptures generally.

Two Logics One Miracup(s) - Pastebin.com
ttps://pastebin.com/mL92xeJQ

No one really knows God or any God or The God except by coming to term with God's Total Control and being the source, cause, bringer, sender, maker of all Evil and Harm and suffering. Not anyone's daddy, not anyone's mommy, not their buddy buddy, not their snuggle muffin, sugar daddy, gramps, but The Enemy of Both Sides, which no one is ever safe from, which is why we grovel, as there is no escape.

4:78
Wheresoever ye may be, death will overtake you, even though ye were in lofty towers. Yet if a happy thing befalleth them they say: This is from Allah; and if an evil thing befalleth them they say: This is from yourself. Say: All is from Allah. What is amiss with these people that they come not nigh to understand a happening?

57:22
No Evil can happen on earth or in your own self but is recorded in a decree before We bring it into existence: That is truly easy for Allah:

53:43
And that it is He who causes laughter and weeping.

67:19
Do they not observe the birds above them, spreading their wings and folding them in? None can uphold them except (Allah) Most Gracious: Truly (Allah) Most Gracious: Truly it is He that watches over all things.

81:29
But ye shall not will except as Allah wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds
And ye will not, unless (it be) that Allah willeth, the Lord of Creation.

9:51
Say: "Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our protector": and on Allah let the Believers put their trust.

3:145
And no person can ever die except by Allah's Will / Doing / Permission and at an decreed / appointed term. And whoever desires a reward in (this) world, We shall give him of it; and whoever desires a reward in the Hereafter, We shall give him thereof. And We shall reward the grateful.

76:30
But ye will not, except as Allah wills; for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom.

6:80
And his people argued with him. He said, "Do you argue with me concerning Allah while He has guided me? And I fear not what you associate with Him [and will not be harmed] unless my Lord should will something. My Lord encompasses all things in knowledge; then will you not remember?

10:100
No one can believe / have faith without the Will of God. God will cast down filthiness / defilement on those who have no understanding.

7:179
And We have certainly created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind. They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear. Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray. It is they who (you see) are the heedless ones.

5:37
They will wish to get out of the fire but they will not have such a choice. Their torment will be constant.

28:68
Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and Exalted above all that they associate (with Him)!

11:118
And if your Lord had willed, He could have made mankind one community; but they will not cease to differ.

13:31
If there were a Qur'an with which mountains were moved, or the earth were cloven asunder, or the dead were made to speak, (this would be the one!) But, truly, the command is with Allah in all things! Do not the Believers know, that, had Allah (so) willed, He could have guided all mankind (to the right)? But the Unbelievers,- never will disaster cease to seize them for their (ill) deeds, or to settle close to their homes, until the promise of Allah come to pass, for, verily, Allah will not fail in His promise.

14:4
And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of his people to state clearly for them, and Allah sends astray [thereby] whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

3:154
Then, after grief, He sent down security for you. As slumber did it overcome a party of you, while (the other) party, who were anxious on their own account, thought wrongly of Allah, the thought of ignorance. They said: Have we any part / influence in the cause? Say: (No, you do not) The cause belongeth wholly to Allah. They hide within themselves (a thought) which they reveal not unto thee, saying: Had we had any part in the cause we should not have been slain here. Say: Even though ye had been in your houses, those appointed to be slain would have gone forth to the (precise) places where they were to lie. (All this hath been) in order that Allah might bring forth what is in your breasts and make manifest what is in your hearts. Allah is Aware of what is hidden in the breasts (of men).

37:96
While Allah created you and that which you do?"
When Allah hath created you and what ye make?
"But Allah has created you and your handwork!

10:107
And if Allah should touch you with adversity / evil / affliction, there is no remover of it except Him; and if He intends for you good, then there is no repeller of His bounty. He causes it to reach whom He wills of His servants. And He is the Forgiving, the Merciful

22:73
O mankind! A similitude is coined, so pay ye heed to it: Lo! those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from it. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought!

5:48
And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

47:4
Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may (bring forth results and) try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.

21:23
He cannot be questioned for His acts, but they will be questioned.

7:43
And We remove whatever ill-feeling may be in their hearts. Rivers flow beneath them. And they say: The praise to Allah, Who hath guided us to this. We could not truly have been led aright if Allah had not guided us. Verily the messengers of our Lord did bring the Truth. And it is announced unto them: This is the Garden. Ye inherit it for what ye used to do.

DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan said:

We worship only to save our skins and get ahead. If God was benign and harmless God could be ignored or thrown in the trash and ignored and something else sought. No one needs to love God, only the wise understand and Fear God.

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According to my beliefs, we were created to know and worship God. Moreover, nearness to God is equated with heaven whereas distance from God is hell, so we cannot get to heaven if we do not love God and want to be near to God in our hearts. This presents a problem for me because I do not love God, but I am not going to deny it is the case just because I am on the outs. I believe it is the case so I make an attempt to love God, futile as it seems. Moreover, I realize that as long as I do not love God, God's love will not reach me because I am pushing God away and God does not violate free will and force us to love Him, love has to be a free choice.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

So my goal is to figure out why I do not love God and to try to do something about it, before I die and it is too late.

[QUOTE="Tokita, post: 6662855, member: 69003"]

Now you are mentioning an authentic hadith narated by Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her), who said:

When it was my night when the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) was with me, he came in and took off his cloak, took off his shoes and put them by his feet, spread the edge of his waist wrapper on his bed and lay down. He waited until he thought that I had gone to sleep, then he picked up his cloak slowly, put on his shoes slowly, opened the door slowly, and went out, then he closed it slowly. I put my chemise over my head and veiled myself, and wrapped my waist wrapper around me, then I set out following him, until he reached al-Baqee‘ where he stood for a long time, then he raised his hands three times. Then he set off, so I set off, then he hastened, so I hastened, then he jogged, so I jogged, then he ran so I ran, then I reached home before him and went in. No sooner had I laid down but he came in and said: “What is the matter, O Aishah? Why are you out of breath?” I said: It is nothing. He said: “Either you tell me or the Subtle One, the All-Aware will tell me.” I said: O Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be sacrificed for you! And I told him. He said: “So you were the person that I saw in front of me?” I said: Yes. He gave me a painful shove on the chest, then he said: “Did you think that Allah and His Messenger would be unjust to you?” She said: Whatever the people conceal, Allah knows it; yes. He said: “Jibreel came to me when you saw. He called me but he concealed it from you, and I answered him but I concealed it from you. He would not enter upon you when you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep and I did not want to wake you up, and I was afraid that you might be frightened. He said: “Your Lord is commanding you to go to the people of al-Baqee’ and pray for forgiveness for them.” I said: What should I say to them, O Messenger of Allah? He said: “Say: Peace be upon the people of these abodes, believers and Muslims. May Allah have mercy on those of us who have gone on before and those who come later, and we will – if Allah wills – join you soon.”

You see brother the words of ‘Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her), “he gave me a painful shove in the chest” indicate that what the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) did was merely a shove, i.e., he pushed her or poked her in the chest; this does not reach the level of real hitting that is intended to cause pain and to humiliate. In fact it is stated in Lisaan al-‘Arab (3/393) that one of the meanings of the word lahd (translated here as shove) is poke. In Taaj al-‘Aroos (9/145) it says that one of the meanings of the word lahd is to apply pressure.

All of these meanings indicate that the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) did not hit her in the sense meant by those who want to cast aspersions upon him; rather he poked her or pushed her in the chest in such a way that she felt pain, but it was mild and unintended pain; rather the purpose behind it was to point out something and teach.

If you reflects on this hadeeth you will realise that it is one of the proofs of the greatness of the Prophet’s attitude. A man may live with his wife for many years, and she may do many things because of the jealousy that is an inherent part of women’s character, but he (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) is not known to have ever caused her harm in word or deed, except for what is mentioned in this hadeeth, despite the large number of narrators who transmitted all the details of his life (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him). This is indicative of his perfect character (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him).

As for those haters who seek to cast aspersions upon him, they wish that they could find any suggestion that he (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) hit his wife in such a way that it caused pain, or at least that he hit her in a way that hurt her, by way of rebuking and humiliation. But they failed to do so. The most that is mentioned in this hadeeth is that ‘Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) said: He gave me a painful shove in the chest. The one who wants to hit and humiliate someone will not limit it to a shove in the chest; rather he will focus his energies on the sides of the body or the face, and have a humiliating impact on the mind of the one whom he hits. We do not see anything of that nature in the hadeeth of ‘Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her).

This hadeeth is indicative of the perfect character of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) and of his compassion and tenderheartedness, because he did not rebuke or strike or tell off; rather he chided her gently with the aim of teaching ‘Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) and the Muslim nation after her. Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, and His Messenger (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) do not treat anyone unjustly, and it is not permissible for anyone to think negatively of Allah or His Messenger. Rather what is required of others is to think positively of Allah and to accept whatever Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, decrees. That “shove” was one of the means of teaching and highlighting a matter of great importance that it is not appropriate to forget or neglect, no matter how great her jealousy concerning the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) and her love for him. It is not appropriate for it to be thought that the Prophet of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) would wrong any of his wives for the sake of another, Allah forbid.

Another indication that this “shove” was not by way of beating and causing pain; rather it was by way of teaching and pointing out something, is the rest of the conversation between the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) and Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her). It was a peaceful and beneficial discussion in which the compassion of the greatest teacher (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) was manifested, as he explained to her the reason why he had gone out of the house at that late hour. He (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) had opened the door quietly and left the house without a sound so as not to disturb her sleep. Such an explanation could not stem from anger or the aim of causing pain; rather it came from a compassionate, kind and noble husband who respected his wife and explained to her, telling her the details of what had happened with him, so as to share his story with her. Thus he instilled in her heart a sense of confidence and trust in her honest and sincere husband.

She said: Whatever the people conceal, Allah knows it; yes. He said: “Jibreel ( Gabriel) came to me when you saw. He called me but he concealed it from you, and I answered him but I concealed it from you. He would not enter upon you when you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep and I did not want to wake you up, and I was afraid that you might be frightened. He said: “Your Lord is commanding you to go to the people of al-Baqee’ and pray for forgiveness for them.” I said: What should I say to them, O Messenger of Allah? He said: “Say: Peace be upon the people of these abodes, believers and Muslims. May Allah have mercy on those of us who have gone on before and those who come later, and we will – if Allah wills – join you soon.”

Let the one who honestly and sincerely seeks the truth reflect on the story of a husband to whom an important matter came when he was sleeping in his wife’s bed at night. He wanted to go out and leave her, but he did not want to wake her up or disturb her sleep; he also did not want her to wake up and feel lonely, anxious and afraid that she had suddenly lost her husband who had been by her side.

If we were to quote all the hadeeths that highlight the forbearance of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with his wives, it would take a long time. He was forbearing and compassionate in situations where an ordinary husband might lose his cool. But the one who had this great character (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) was patient and forbearing; indeed he refrained from doing anything that could upset his wife.

Another example of that is seen in the report narrated by Umm Salamah (may Allah be pleased with her), which says that she brought some food in a dish of hers to the Messenger of Allaah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon her) and his companions, then Aisha came, wrapped up in a garment, with a stone pestle and broke the dish. The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) gathered the broken pieces of the dish and said: “Eat; your mother got jealous,” twice. Then the Messenger of Allaah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) took the dish of Aisha and sent it to Umm Salamah and he gave the dish of Umm Salamah to Aisha

It was narrated that Nu‘maan ibn Basheer (may Allah be pleased with him) said:

Abu Bakr came and asked permission to enter upon the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), and he heard Aisha raising her voice to the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him). He gave him permission to enter, so he entered and said: O daughter of Umm Roomaan! – and he grabbed her – do you raise your voice to the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)? The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) separated them, and when Abu Bakr left, the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) started saying to her, to make her feel happy: “Do you not see how I intervened between the man and you?”

He said: Then Abu Bakr came and asked for permission to enter upon him, and he found him laughing with her. Permission was given to him, and he entered, and Abu Bakr said to him: O Messenger of Allah, make me a partner in your peace as you made me a partner in your war.

So let those haters reflect on how great the compassion of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) was towards his wife ‘Aa’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her), and how much he loved her, even in difficult circumstances in front of his guests before whom she broke the dish of food, and he looked for an excuse for her, saying: “your mother got jealous.”

Isn’t jealousy the same factor that motivated Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) to go out following the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) that night, when she thought that he had gone out to see one of his other wives, but that did not cause him (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) to rebuke her by hitting her in a way so as to cause pain, as happens with many husbands.

If this “shove” had been hitting in a real and violent sense, Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) would have wept like young women do, and she would have expressed her pain and objection to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him). But she did not do that; rather she continued the conversation with the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) and showed politeness by asking about the dhikr that is recommended when visiting graves. This indicates that the “shove” was no more than a gesture aimed at alerting and teaching, and that Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) did not feel the slightest sense of hurt or offence that these haters are looking for to use against our noble Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him).

Tokita said:

2. The Hadith speaks of many superstitions that came out of the Prophet's mouth.

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I wouldn`t call it superstitions, but prophecies, you see one of the ways in which a person proves his prophethood is honesty, whether it be in regards to incidents in the past, in their everyday life, or things to come in the future. In addition to the Quran, there are many sayings of Prophet Muhammad which contain prophecies he made in his lifetime dealing with near and distant future. Some of them have come true, others await fulfillment. Hudhaifah, a disciple of Prophet Muhammad, tells us:

"The Prophet once delivered a speech in front of us wherein he mentioned everything [all the signs] that would happen till the Final Hour without leaving anything. Some of us remembered it and some forgot it. After that speech, I used to see events taking place which were referred to in that speech, but I had forgotten them before their occurrence. Then I would recognize such events as a man recognizes another man who has been absent and then sees and recognizes him." (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)

There are at least 160 known and confirmed prophecies of Prophet Muhammad which were fulfilled in his lifetime and the first generation after him. I will mention some here.

(1) Preceding the Battle of Badr, the first and decisive confrontation with pagan Meccans in the second year of migration from Mecca in 623 CE, Prophet Muhammad foretold the precise spot every pagan Meccan soldier would fall. Those who witnessed the battle saw the prophecy come true with their own eyes.

(2) Prophet Muhammad prophesized the Battle of the Confederates (al-Ahzab) would be the last invasion the tribe of Quraish (the pagan Meccans) would launch against the Muslims. It was fought in the fifth year of migration, 626 CE and was the last military conflict between the two sides. All Meccans embraced Islam after a few years.

(3) The Prophet informed his daughter, Fatima, that she would be the first member of his family to die after him. There are two prophecies in one: Fatima will outlive her father; Fatima will be the first member of his household to die after him. Both were fulfilled.

(4) The Prophet Muhammad prophesized Jerusalem would be conquered after his death. The prophecy was fulfilled when, according to Encyclopedia Britannica: "In 638 the Muslim Caliph, Umar I, entered Jerusalem."

(5) The Prophet Muhammad prophesized the conquest of Persia. It was conquered by Umar’s commander, Sa’ad ibn Abi Waqqas. In the words of Encyclopedia Britannica:

"…raids into Sasanian territory were quickly taken up by Muhammad’s Caliphs, or deputies, at Medina - Abu Bakr and Umar ibn al-Khattab… an Arab victory at Al-Qadisiyyah in 636/637 was followed by the sack of the Sasanian winter capital at Ctesiphon on the Tigris. The Battle of Nahavand in 642 completed the Sasanids’ vanquishment."

(6) The Prophet Muhammad prophesized the conquest of Egypt. In the words of Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Amr… undertook the invasion in 639 with a small army of some 4,000 men (later reinforced). With what seems astonishing speed the Byzantine forces were routed and had withdrawn from Egypt by 642… Various explanations have been given for the speed with which the conquest was achieved."

(7) The Prophet foretold confrontation with the Turks. The first conflict took place in the caliphate of Umar in 22 AH.

(8) The Prophet foretold the first maritime battle to be undertaken by Muslims would be witnessed by Umm Haram, the first woman to participate in a naval expedition. He also prophesied the first assault on Constantinople.

The first maritime battle in Muslim history was in 28 AH in the rule of Mu’awiya. It was witnessed by Umm Haram as foretold by Prophet Muhammad, and Yazid ibn Mu’awiya led the first attack on Constantinople in 52 AH.

(9) The prophecy that Rome, Persia, and Yemen will be conquered was made during the Battle of Confederates in 626 CE, under extreme circumstances, as is described by the Quran:

"[Remember] when they came at you from above you and from below you, and when eyes shifted [in fear], and hearts reached the throats and you assumed about God [various] assumptions. There, the believers were tested and shaken with a severe shaking. And [remember] when the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is disease said, ‘God and His Messenger did not promise us except delusion.’" (Quran 33:10-12)

(10) Prophet Muhammad prophesized an imposter claiming to speak in the name of God would be killed at the hands of a righteous man in Muhammad’s lifetime. Al-Aswad al-Ansi, an imposter prophet in Yemen, was killed in the Prophet’s lifetime by Fayruz al-Daylami.

And let me tell you brother, there are at least an additional 28 prophecies pertaining to the end times which are awaiting fulfillment.

Indeed these well-documented prophecies are clear proofs of the Prophethood of Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him. There is no possible way that the Prophet could have knowledge of these incidents except if it were inspired by God Himself, all in order to further prove the authenticity of the Muhammad, that he was not an imposter, but rather a Prophet raised by God to deliver humanity from Hellfire.

People have a lot of trouble accepting those many quotes I provided above in an earlier post here regarding some things like will and Allah's creation of evil things and bringing of harm. They also have trouble understanding why there is a paradise or hell.

I explained it like this:
"
Maybe you have to refresh and go back to the paradise post and see all thats after
There is one that says Tevildo thats cool
If you search on page
I copy pasted the quotes one and dream one right here now
there are also fun anti-biblical ones
page 10, 11, 12 all are full of new stuff after the paradise post
Anyway, the way to understand it is like this
The calculation or math doesn't work:
Two Logics One Miracup(s) - Pastebin.com

and the scriptures all get contradicted as well less importantly by the free will thing.

As you'll see, the reason there can't be free will or agency is that information moments can't create themselves because they don't have that power and aren't even available or existing in order for the next moment or frame to appear which is explained in that link hopefully albeit very briefly covered probably.

So thats the math that doesn't add up and makes it impossible.

So what is happening is just what it looks like on the surface, you do everything the same, think as you do, make decisions etc, deal with laws and causes and effects, but on the higher level you're a character in a book or a tv show, just like a tv show can have laws and a society or is an episode of Law & Order Special Victims Unit, has characters making decisions and thinking things and doing things, has bad guys and good guys and everything in between, has actions and consequences and laws and scenarios but its all just written and acted out based on the script, thats exactly the same, there us justice, there are events, there are decisions but those are made up characters existing as they do and doing what they do because they were moment to moment authored as doing such, they have no will of their own or existence even, they are all fictions consciously determined by the writer in every detail.

So, thats how it is, you're doing everything, imagining you are independent but you're not, you're an invention as are the laws as are Judgment Day Paradise whatever sci fi just like a movie, its one of an infinite amount of possible made up realities, wherd the good guys supposedly win, the bad guys do bad and go to hell, etc. "

That is for people who don't understand how there can be the things in this world or the things in the afterlife or good or bad seeming things while there is no co-creation with Allah or influencing Allah.

Deeje said:

A Christian never sees safety in numbers. God's people have always been in a minority. Why do you think Jesus foretold that "few" are on the road to life? (Matthew 7:13-14) If you are one of the "many"...be afraid....be very afraid. 



If you knew what Jesus' Jewish audience understood by the term, you would know that there is no "hell".

"Gehenna" was a reference to the Valley of Hinnom where the apostate Israelites used to sacrifice their children to Molech. God put a stop to that and the valley (just outside the walls of Jerusalem) became the city's garbage dump. It was kept burning day and night by adding brimstone (sulfur). The carcasses of dead animals and the bodies of executed criminals were thrown into the fires of gehenna for disposal along with the rubbish....nothing alive ever went into 'gehenna'. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off....that is why the worms never died, because they always had plenty to feed on.

For Jews, a burial place marked with their name and family lineage was seen as a certainty that God would remember them in the resurrection. (The ancient Jews had no belief in an afterlife.) These ones who were cast into 'gehenna' were not considered worthy of a resurrection, and so would stay in sheol (the grave) forever. Think about it.....everlasting death is the opposite of everlasting life. No passage in the Bible contrasts "heaven or hell" as opposite destinations. No consciousness survives the death of the body. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10)



That may be so...but are they fine with God? 



Did you write that?
You are right.....I am unlikely to read something that will take that much time and only give me one person's 'stories' of how things look to them. It doesn't look meaningful to me at all, sorry.



As I said...I have no reason to doubt them. If I believe that God is Almighty (which I do) then he is quite capable of inspiring humans to write accounts about his activities and teachings. If he has ability to create the Universe, why would I doubt his ability to inspire and to preserve his word? Do you place limitations on God?



Who is "they"? "They" is not "me" or my brotherhood. We reject much of what Christendom teaches.....but it doesn't mean that we reject the Bible...we reject Christendom's interpretation of it. There is no trinity...there is no immortal soul...there is no hell....all of these teachings came from paganism, not the Bible.



I have explained my views on that already. You are free to believe whatever you wish, but unless there are others who share your beliefs, what does that make you? Jesus led a movement away from a corrupted religious system and he said that it was going to happen again. Christianity would be corrupted just as Judaism was. When he was to return, he was going to again lead people of all nations out of an equally corrupt religious system. Its the "wheat and the weeds".....remember Jesus' parable?

A spiritual cleansing was necessary....and that is what happened. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10) Those who identify as "Christians" but who hold beliefs contrary to the only scriptures that God inspired, will not be acceptable.....they will face a stinging rejection as those whom Jesus "never knew". (Matthew 7:21-23) What does "never" mean?



If this is how you interpret the Bible...that is your business.....but calling the Bible writers and their believers something from the Devil is not exactly what Jesus did. He accepted the scripture that was available to him as devout Jew. He called none of it into question, so why do you?

The so called "New Testament" is merely a compilation of the life and times of Jesus the Christ, and the ones who carried on his legacy. But after the death of the apostles, the rot set in again, and men took people away from God and on into their own ideas about how to worship. Haven't you done the same thing?

They all said "I think" too.....and look at the result. Total confusion.
The logical way to measure the authenticity of something is to match criteria. But if you have no faith in the criteria how can you possibly measure anything?

You are left to worship your opinion....so where is that going to get you? 

If you have no brotherhood....you have no truth....just an opinion.

BTW, my religion is stated quite clearly. 

Click to expand...

Gei Hinnom was understood by some of that Jewish audience to refer to a location in the New World and around the New Jerusalem in the Afterlife mentioned by Isaiah and then also Jesus. In Second Temple Judaism they had an understanding of an afterlife and Gei Hinnom, meaning the Valley or Rift of Bitter Wailing was not the burning garbage dump you may think only, but was used to refer to the concept of the place of punishment and ongoing deaths and destruction. Molech was the "King of the Dead" and Judge of the Dead to the Ancient Semitic Language peoples. You probably won't believe me or study the matterm anyway, but you will find that the Second Temple Jews had a concept of a fiery place of punishment and a New World of the ressurected dead they derived from Isaiah and it was very important to their thinking. It is this real future Hell that is referred to here:
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna)

Its not Sheol in this verse or talking about a current world dump. You can read about the Jews belief in Hell in the Next World.


Luke 12:5
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!

The Worm Dieth Not business was that they imagined the person to be in a state of constant death, dying, and decay, and suffering, where their decaying and burning never ceases while they experience it. They can't die or cease to experience, but will wish they could!

DANIEL 12:2-3 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

" Isaiah 66:24 is the key to understanding Gehenna Isaiah 66:24 states “And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.” Why is this verse key? Because Jesus quotes it verbatim in Mark 9:48. Therefore, it is a clear statement about Gehenna (hell) and must be looked at in the context of Isaiah 66. (Jesus would have known it in context and so should we.) Also, the word “Gehenna” is what Jesus used whenever he spoke of “hell” "

Do you know about the New World and Ressurection or are you just totally a disbeliever in all these concepts and haven't yet discovered their existence in the Old and New Testament?

The Second Temple Jews were fully aware of these concepts, don't let Satan dupe you yet again by making you think "there is no such thing as hell or fire or punishment".

Why are you so deceived by Satan? What denomination is lying to you and deceiving you this much and making you think you are wise?

I have my brotherhood with those who believe in the ressurection and judgment and paradise for those judged good (no baby murderers who support baby murderers and say God told them to murder suckling infants) and punishment for the evildoers (like baby murderers and those who support baby murderers and say that God told them to murder suckling infants just because its written in a book, do believe every book tells the truth? Why do believe this book of lies in particular?)

The link I gave you was not some story, it was the clear reasoning given as to explaining what God is, its logic stuff, almost like math, you can skip it though, since you are just bent on holding on to a book for no good reason.

You said: "If he has ability to create the Universe, why would I doubt his ability to inspire and to preserve his word? Do you place limitations on God?"

No, I just don't understand why you think some liar making up lies makes it a true account of things you were not even around for? If some trashy lunatic sits in a hovel and writes "God told me to rape my daughter" are you such a dufus to say "yes, yes, I think it is so". Like, what the heck is wrong with you? Why in the world do you believe them? Why? They are lying, you weren't there, they are saying God told them to kill suckling infant babies, they are LYING can't you get that through your noggin'? Why do you believe these Devils and their lies about God and God's commands? God doesn't command such things, why should you think or believe God commands such things? Only a person who is evil themselves thinks God commanded such things just because its written in a filthy pornographic book of the past, The Bible.

You asked if the believers in God who reject that God ordered the killing of suckling infant babies are:

"That may be so...but are they fine with God? "

Yes, why shouldn't they be? God is going to do something to people who devotedly worship God and reject filthy lies about God like "God commanded people to kill suckling infant babies"? What wacko, twisted beliefs and morality you have? Plus, what is their penalty anyway if they are wrong? Nothing? Oblivion? What the Atheists think?

Give me the full run down on your lunatic fringe heresies and blasphemous notions, you and your "brotherhood" what is their name? How many of you corrupters spreading deception are there?

Lets number you the way your God numbered you:

1 Chronicles 21:1
Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” (2 Samuel 24:1)

Your God, Satan.