He literally said we are helpless, I quoted the guy.
This is having your cake. And eating it too. We're totally helpless, but also "free."
No, he did not say we are
totally helpless; he said we needed the
assistance from God in order to be able to make choices and act upon them. People who are disabled are not totally helpless; they just need some assistance but they still have free will to make choices and perform actions.
“Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless. This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the help and assistance of God. So this condition is like that of a ship which is moved by the power of the wind or steam; if this power ceases, the ship cannot move at all. Nevertheless, the rudder of the ship turns it to either side, and the power of the steam moves it in the desired direction. If it is directed to the east, it goes to the east; or if it is directed to the west, it goes to the west. This motion does not come from the ship; no, it comes from the wind or the steam.” Some Answered Questions, p. 249
‘God wants us to do our own homework and make an effort to believe.’
Yes, I know. That's an incoherent wish.
What is incoherent about it?
We can never know what God is doing, but you know he's sitting on his "Throne of Glory?"
That is figurative language and it means that God is far above us and glorified. We still do not know what God is ‘doing.’
If God can't do something, he's not omnipotent. Yes, that is Logic 101. Thank you.
Logic does not determine what God
can or will do, ONLY God determines that. Omnipotent means All-Powerful, it does not mean “can do anything.” For example, God cannot become a man because then God would no longer be God. God cannot write because God is not a human with hands.
Omnipotent means that God will only do what He
wants/chooses to do, because an All-Powerful God does not have to do anything He does not
want/choose to do.
To some atheists omnipotent means that God should do what I want Him to do because He can. They are so illogical because if God did what they wanted Him to do instead of what He wants to do he would be demoted to the level of a human. God
might do what you want Him to do but only if He wants to do it.
I don't know what to think, different theists tell me different things. And there's no evidence he's around to care or not care anyway.
Why would it
matter if God cared if people believed in Him? Belief in God is only for our benefit, not for God’s benefit so God only care if we believe for our sake.
Understood. God has chosen to cause a portion of humanity not to believe by hiding. Thank you, that is what I've been saying.
Sorry, God did not choose that. God provided evidence and a portion of humanity has rejected that evidence.... not God’s fault.
I'm sorry that it frustrates you when people point out the obvious logical flaws in your theology.
What are those obvious logical flaws?
Given the amount that you post about this specific subject, I can't help but wonder if at some level, this problem bothers you.
There is no problem, and I am not bothered at all. The reason I have been posting these kinds of threads is because of that atheist I mentioned who I have been posting to for six years. These threads were inspired by what we were discussing.
By all accounts, you're a bright, otherwise very logical person. And you keep after this particular issue relentlessly, trying somehow to find a rationalization for the obvious conundrum divine hiddenness causes for your worldview. And now, because I point out the same issue that philosophers have literally been pointing out for millennia, you lash out and accuse me of being childish. You can do better, Trail.
The idea that God is hiding and He had better come out of hiding or else I won’t believe in Him is very childish. God is not a material being who can just appear on Earth and say “hi.” Not only that, but there is no reason to think that God should come out of hiding (down off His Throne). If you knew what the Writings of Baha’u’llah say about God you
might understand this better, or maybe not.
God is not hiding His existence, because God has
manifested Himself in men who are both human and divine, such that He can act as a mediator between God and man. Nobody can ever know anything about God without a mediator.
You said
“trying somehow to find a rationalization for the obvious conundrum divine hiddenness.”
Right there you made a completely illogical statement because if an omnipotent God chooses to hide His Essence He does not need to make excuses for that.
ALL the evidence indicates that God has always communicated via Messengers who founded all the great religions in the world. For some reason, atheists just cannot accept that reality, but it does not change that reality.
I'll say the same thing I already said to another theist this past week. If you don't want to talk to me about this subject, then don't. You are free to stop replying at any time.
I have no problem talking to atheists as long as the conversation is leading somewhere, even if only very slowly, and in fact I much prefer posting to atheists rather than believers. That certainly does not mean that they have to agree with me. The reason I said what I did about that atheist I have been posting to for six years is because there has been no change in his position for six years. Everyone else on those forums has wondered why I still post to him, but we have a relationship so it is hard to break it off.
I know that one reason I cannot break it of is because I will never abandon anyone who wants to talk to me, since as a child I was emotionally abandoned by both parents. However, I have realized that it is not in his best interest, or mine, to keep covering the same ground over and over and over again. I have no idea why he talks about God so much. Unlike some atheists on this forum who would like to believe in God if there was evidence, he never expressed any interest in believing in God, until today when I called him out and then he said he would have great interest in any REAL god. Then I told him he would only be interested in a REAL God is it was revealed on “his terms” and that is never going to happen.
The only way he would ever be willing to believe in God is if God communicated to him directly. That is not going to happen so it makes no sense to keep talking about it. The only thing that makes sense,
if he wants to believe, is to try to ascertain why God does not communicate directly to everyone. However, he does not accept my reasons because they are scriptural, and he just calls them excuses. How can an omnipotent/omniscient/infallible God need excuses? That is completely illogical.
When you can demonstrate that any of God's alleged manifestations were omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, or existed outside of space-time, I'd love to see it. Put it in that imminent thread you're going to start!
The Manifestations of God do not have all the same Attributes as God, so they are not omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent.
Some of God’s Attributes that are
unique to God are as follows: Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, Righteous, and Immaterial.
Some of God’s Attributes that are shared by the Messengers of God are as follows: Benevolent, Compassionate, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Forgiving, and Patient.