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If God spoke directly to everyone...

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Gods don't factor into my thinking, but if they did, I would still use satisfaction as the measure and evidence of a life successfully lived.

I guess that is where you and I differ. I do not use personal satisfaction as a measure of anything. I realize I might have to be unhappy in a material sense in order to gain what I want to gain spiritually. What that means is making a lot of personal sacrifices, but in a very deep level I am happier than I have ever been in my entire life, even though I have hardly any personal enjoyments.

You say that your choices have made you happy, or what I called satisfaction, right after telling me that you and I are different regarding using this experience as a guide to deciding if our choices are good ones. In that sense, I would say that we are the same, not different.

What else can we go by except to simply let others make those choices for us and accept the result however unhappy it made us, like a bad arranged marriage?

There is no way you can know if a different path would be less conducive to happiness unless you took that path.

I did, and that is how I knew to abandon Christianity. It was the opposite of satisfying. It left me with cognitive dissonance for as long as I tried to make sense of it. I traded it for something more satisfying, And as I have said, that is the measure of a good worldview.

You might say that I should choose another religious path, perhaps Baha'i, But I would simply return to that world of cognitive dissonance, since, as I and others have pointed out, many of us cannot simply make ourselves believe anything without good evidence to support the belief, so I would be living an inauthentic existence. I learned that from my Christian experience.

Also, how could I forget how much better life was before returning to religion? Once again, I return to saying that this inner sense is my guide, and it tells me to stay the present course.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
so …..you can't see the line of thought

ain't that too bad

and yeah.....the fault is to the listener
which is why the Carpenter taught in parables

I cannot see what is never presented in the first place.

And your ramblings are devoid of even parabolic symbolism.

Typical of a theist, though: Pretending to be more ... magical? More something than anyone else.

And I have smelled that something: It reminds me of an unkempt, swept horse stall...
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
I speak about Karma, it is you who always go back to speak about slaves. Human people gain karma when doing wrong action speech and thoughts, it is not Me Amanaki, who say it is so, it is teaching in EVERY Asian religions or Cultivation practices that when we do wrongdoings we get karma and it is negative for us so we must suffer to repay it. That we must repay for our own "sins" or wrongdoings is not evil it is only a result of our own actions, so we can blame our self when we suffer.
That you do not believe it to be so that is, of course, no problem for me.

Yes, I DO keep bringing up slavery... do you know why? It's because YOU made the baffling claim that today society is LESS moral than it has been in the past. I replied that since we have abolished slavery as an acceptable institution - one the most morally repugnant practices humans have ever practiced - that we are actually a MORE moral society today.

Sadly, YOUR response was that anyone who suffered through being enslaved NEEDED to endure that suffering for the sake of karma, suggesting that slavery served a needed and necessary function and that consequently people who enslaved other people were performing a GOOD and NEEDED function... a concept that I find to be absolutely disgusting.

By your twisted logic, any suffering that anyone endures is DESERVED and NECESSARY... thus anyone causing other people to suffer are ALSO serving a NECESSARY function and their actions can't be considered wrong or immoral.

Again, you have a VERY bizarre and disturbing definition of morality.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Yes, I DO keep bringing up slavery... do you know why? It's because YOU made the baffling claim that today society is LESS moral than it has been in the past. I replied that since we have abolished slavery as an acceptable institution - one the most morally repugnant practices humans have ever practiced - that we are actually a MORE moral society today.

Sadly, YOUR response was that anyone who suffered through being enslaved NEEDED to endure that suffering for the sake of karma, suggesting that slavery served a needed and necessary function and that consequently people who enslaved other people were performing a GOOD and NEEDED function... a concept that I find to be absolutely disgusting.

By your twisted logic, any suffering that anyone endures is DESERVED and NECESSARY... thus anyone causing other people to suffer are ALSO serving a NECESSARY function and their actions can't be considered wrong or immoral.

Again, you have a VERY bizarre and disturbing definition of morality.
Do not worry, i will stop answering question in the forum because it seems that i upset people here to much by telling the truth. Truth hurts sometimes you know. I see that EVERY DAY
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Do not worry, i will stop answering question in the forum because it seems that i upset people here to much by telling the truth. Truth hurts sometimes you know. I see that EVERY DAY

If your 'truth' is that people who practiced slavery were performing a good and needed service, then I don't want to have anything to do with it. Your definition of a 'moral society' would be absolute hell.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But those percentages are getting larger and larger because many people are questioning traditional Christian beliefs and becoming agnostics and atheists. However, I agree, the percentages are still small compared to those who continue to adhere to their beliefs.
[/quote]
Yes, you are right about that. There is that factor of general decline in religion too that I wasn't thinking of.

I was not raised in any religion or with a belief in God. Both my parents were ‘fallen away’ Christians. I never saw the inside of a Church or a Bible. Back in the days when 95% of people in the United States were Christians both my parents were rebels.
Did they see themselves as 'fallen away', or was that how others saw them? I know I used to hear Christians refer to those who left the church as 'backsliders', even if they left if for some other reason than going back to being a drunk or something. Were they self-identified atheists, and quit going because they didn't believe that stuff anymore?

I then stumbled upon the Baha’i Faith during my first year of college and became a Baha’i within weeks. It was not for God that I became a Baha’i; it was because of the teachings. I had little interest in God back then, He was just an aside.
That's fascinating. Why wouldn't God have been part of it for you? Was it just the social aspects of community that attracted you?

Only as I got older did I start to consider God important and now I cannot shake Him off my tail. :D
Why as you got older? In what ways?
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
I did not judge others I only answered a question. And no I do not see people as dumbass as you called it. But what I do speak about is that (for those who do follow a spiritual path) there is moral code to follow, to always try to become morally better within themself. To have a view that the world is becoming less moral, and that many do not follow moral code anymore. it is not only difficult to watch it but when trying to help by pointing out that humanity (not individual people) has a huge problem. Then I get spit in the face with that I am evil. I don't take it personally, but I see it as a sign that yes what I said is correct. Because if people did have a higher moral standard they would ask questions about it instead of ridicule

I do not have high enough moral standards (according to Falun Gong) myself self so I don't say others are morally bad and think I am better than others. I have my problems too that I work on every day. Every day I find it challenging because I still get tempted by food that looks good. I still get thoughts that should not be there, I do not swear out load but sometimes the word is formed in my head, and to me, that is a failure.
I don't drink alcohol or smoke (i did drink 20 years ago but was only drunk once) I did smoke for 4 years 20 years ago but quit)
My biggest "error" today is that I don't feel good enough toward others, but others say I burn my self out by always think of others first) But still I don't find it good enough.

I never mean to hurt others with my words, but I realize when I speak the truth it might hurt others who do not see the same things I do. So I understand in the future I will become more and more silent. And that is maybe the right way to go. At this moment i don't know.

You asked me. Who do I know what I am?
My answer to that is. I did actually have a thread about that some time ago. And I can still not fully answer this question. So No at the moment I do not know what I am or who I am.
I know what I want to be but I am not there yet.

Cottleston ****ing pie.

Reading your thread is almost like reading a manifesto.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I cannot see what is never presented in the first place.

And your ramblings are devoid of even parabolic symbolism.

Typical of a theist, though: Pretending to be more ... magical? More something than anyone else.

And I have smelled that something: It reminds me of an unkempt, swept horse stall...
resorting to mud slinging......
how 'artful' of you
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
resorting to mud slinging......
how 'artful' of you

Irony post is Irony: Who slung the mud first? That would be you-- when you pathetically attempted to "humiliate" me because I called you on your horse-exhaust post.

Instead of "explaining" your barnyard waste of a post, you tried to imply I was somehow less or some such for failing to comprehend pure gibberish.

So keep on slinging the mud and gibberish. And I'll keep laughing.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Do not worry, i will stop answering question in the forum because it seems that i upset people here to much by telling the truth. Truth hurts sometimes you know. I see that EVERY DAY
Do you feel alone here sometimes? I do, sometimes. It might happen more when I’m trying to counteract misunderstandings and misinformation. Seeing your posts helps me feel less alone.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
He literally said we are helpless, I quoted the guy.
This is having your cake. And eating it too. We're totally helpless, but also "free."
No, he did not say we are totally helpless; he said we needed the assistance from God in order to be able to make choices and act upon them. People who are disabled are not totally helpless; they just need some assistance but they still have free will to make choices and perform actions.

“Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless. This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the help and assistance of God. So this condition is like that of a ship which is moved by the power of the wind or steam; if this power ceases, the ship cannot move at all. Nevertheless, the rudder of the ship turns it to either side, and the power of the steam moves it in the desired direction. If it is directed to the east, it goes to the east; or if it is directed to the west, it goes to the west. This motion does not come from the ship; no, it comes from the wind or the steam.” Some Answered Questions, p. 249
‘God wants us to do our own homework and make an effort to believe.’

Yes, I know. That's an incoherent wish.
What is incoherent about it?
We can never know what God is doing, but you know he's sitting on his "Throne of Glory?"
That is figurative language and it means that God is far above us and glorified. We still do not know what God is ‘doing.’
If God can't do something, he's not omnipotent. Yes, that is Logic 101. Thank you.
Logic does not determine what God can or will do, ONLY God determines that. Omnipotent means All-Powerful, it does not mean “can do anything.” For example, God cannot become a man because then God would no longer be God. God cannot write because God is not a human with hands.

Omnipotent means that God will only do what He wants/chooses to do, because an All-Powerful God does not have to do anything He does not want/choose to do.

To some atheists omnipotent means that God should do what I want Him to do because He can. They are so illogical because if God did what they wanted Him to do instead of what He wants to do he would be demoted to the level of a human. God might do what you want Him to do but only if He wants to do it.
I don't know what to think, different theists tell me different things. And there's no evidence he's around to care or not care anyway.
Why would it matter if God cared if people believed in Him? Belief in God is only for our benefit, not for God’s benefit so God only care if we believe for our sake.
Understood. God has chosen to cause a portion of humanity not to believe by hiding. Thank you, that is what I've been saying.
Sorry, God did not choose that. God provided evidence and a portion of humanity has rejected that evidence.... not God’s fault.
I'm sorry that it frustrates you when people point out the obvious logical flaws in your theology.
What are those obvious logical flaws?
Given the amount that you post about this specific subject, I can't help but wonder if at some level, this problem bothers you.
There is no problem, and I am not bothered at all. The reason I have been posting these kinds of threads is because of that atheist I mentioned who I have been posting to for six years. These threads were inspired by what we were discussing.
By all accounts, you're a bright, otherwise very logical person. And you keep after this particular issue relentlessly, trying somehow to find a rationalization for the obvious conundrum divine hiddenness causes for your worldview. And now, because I point out the same issue that philosophers have literally been pointing out for millennia, you lash out and accuse me of being childish. You can do better, Trail.
The idea that God is hiding and He had better come out of hiding or else I won’t believe in Him is very childish. God is not a material being who can just appear on Earth and say “hi.” Not only that, but there is no reason to think that God should come out of hiding (down off His Throne). If you knew what the Writings of Baha’u’llah say about God you might understand this better, or maybe not.

God is not hiding His existence, because God has manifested Himself in men who are both human and divine, such that He can act as a mediator between God and man. Nobody can ever know anything about God without a mediator.

You said “trying somehow to find a rationalization for the obvious conundrum divine hiddenness.”

Right there you made a completely illogical statement because if an omnipotent God chooses to hide His Essence He does not need to make excuses for that.

ALL the evidence indicates that God has always communicated via Messengers who founded all the great religions in the world. For some reason, atheists just cannot accept that reality, but it does not change that reality.
I'll say the same thing I already said to another theist this past week. If you don't want to talk to me about this subject, then don't. You are free to stop replying at any time.
I have no problem talking to atheists as long as the conversation is leading somewhere, even if only very slowly, and in fact I much prefer posting to atheists rather than believers. That certainly does not mean that they have to agree with me. The reason I said what I did about that atheist I have been posting to for six years is because there has been no change in his position for six years. Everyone else on those forums has wondered why I still post to him, but we have a relationship so it is hard to break it off.

I know that one reason I cannot break it of is because I will never abandon anyone who wants to talk to me, since as a child I was emotionally abandoned by both parents. However, I have realized that it is not in his best interest, or mine, to keep covering the same ground over and over and over again. I have no idea why he talks about God so much. Unlike some atheists on this forum who would like to believe in God if there was evidence, he never expressed any interest in believing in God, until today when I called him out and then he said he would have great interest in any REAL god. Then I told him he would only be interested in a REAL God is it was revealed on “his terms” and that is never going to happen.

The only way he would ever be willing to believe in God is if God communicated to him directly. That is not going to happen so it makes no sense to keep talking about it. The only thing that makes sense, if he wants to believe, is to try to ascertain why God does not communicate directly to everyone. However, he does not accept my reasons because they are scriptural, and he just calls them excuses. How can an omnipotent/omniscient/infallible God need excuses? That is completely illogical.
When you can demonstrate that any of God's alleged manifestations were omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, or existed outside of space-time, I'd love to see it. Put it in that imminent thread you're going to start!
The Manifestations of God do not have all the same Attributes as God, so they are not omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent.

Some of God’s Attributes that are unique to God are as follows: Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, Righteous, and Immaterial.

Some of God’s Attributes that are shared by the Messengers of God are as follows: Benevolent, Compassionate, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Forgiving, and Patient.
 
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Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
The Manifestations of God do not have all the same Attributes as God, so they are not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, or existed outside of space-time.

Hold on... if god exists outside space/time? God cannot possibly interfere WITH space/time.

It kinda goes with being outside of it....

That explains so much! God cannot do anything, because god isn't in the Universe in the first place! May as well not exist at all, then, for all the good it could do-- which would be nothing.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Regardless, my point still stand, your bunch of claims which you have provided 0 evidence to backup any of them, that's very unconvincing.
Again, I am not trying to ‘convince’ anyone of anything. I was just offering my opinions/beliefs.
Btw, what is the purpose of your op? Why do you making so many bold empty claims (regards your God) in your op in a religious debate forum?
These are not claims. They are beliefs, based upon what was revealed in the scriptures of my religion. They might be bold, but I do not consider them empty. YMMV.

Anyone who wants to debate them is welcome to debate them.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What you mean seems to directly contradict that which you claim you don't mean.

"Beliefs aren't choices, but if you choose, then..."

It makes no sense.
Either beliefs are a choice or they aren't.
Beliefs are a choice, but not everyone will want to or be able to make that choice.

My point was that God wants it to be OUR choice IF we want to or are able to believe, not something He foisted upon us.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You can answer that question yourself.

Consider "choosing" to sincerely believe that Santa is real.
Could you really do that?

I say no, you couldn't.

You could choose to order a steak instead of fried chicken, but you could not choose to sincerely believe santa is real.

Because beliefs aren't mere choices.
If you have made up your mind that God does not exist you will choose not to believe in God because you are convinced God does not exist.

Belief in God is a choice people make when they become convinced that God exists based upon the evidence (or maybe without evidence). Non-belief in God is a choice people make when they become convinced that God does not exist based upon the lack of evidence.

If people never become convinced that God exists then they will never make the choice to believe.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Beliefs are a choice, ...

Absolutely, 100% false. Do you need to "believe" in gravity, for gravity to make you fall towards the center of the earth?

Do you need to "believe" in oxygen, to make you continue to breathe in and out?

Nope. Belief is being convinced something is accurate or true, whereas not-believing is a failure to be so convinced.

There is little choice here-- unless you engage in "insert fingers into ears and yell 'lalalalala' at the top of your voice" which is so very common among creationists, when presented with facts that refute creationism...
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
If you have made up your mind that God does not exist you will choose not to believe in God because you are convinced God does not exist..

What if you haven't made up your mind, but are requesting evidence? Which, so far, no one seems to be able to provide?

Hmmmmmmm..... again... you make a false claim.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: We do choose if we are convinced by the evidence.

No.
Why not?
You are not convinced by the evidence so you do not choose to believe.

Being convinced by the evidence compells you to believe (or not). It's a compulsion, not a choice.
The point is that you make a choice to believe or not believe if you are convinced or not convinced. Nobody is forcing you to make that choice so you are not compelled to make it.
All the evidence suggests that Santa is a fairy tale for children.
No evidence suggests the dude exists.

By compulsion, this forces us to disbelieve santa is real.

Please point out where the "choice" is in the reasoning that leads us to disbelieve in santa.
We choose not to believe in Santa because we know that Santa is just a fairy tale for children. We are not forced to disbelieve in Santa, we could choose to believe in Santa if we wanted to, even though there is no evidence that a real Santa exists.
It is a conscious choice I made just like everything we do is a choice.

As I keep pointing out: it really isn't.
I guess you do not believe in free will, but I do.
  1. First we acquire knowledge (gather information related to God’s existence).
  2. Then we apply our will (volition) to that knowledge.
  3. Then we perform an action, and in this case the action is a conscious choice to believe or disbelieve based upon the knowledge we acquired.
I did not just suddenly decide one day to believe in God. I did not believe in God before I became a Baha'i because I had no reason to believe that God existed.

And then you came across things that convinced you which triggered you to believe.
True, and then I made a choice to believe.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You say that your choices have made you happy, or what I called satisfaction, right after telling me that you and I are different regarding using this experience as a guide to deciding if our choices are good ones. In that sense, I would say that we are the same, not different.
I am spiritually happy but I do not use happiness as a guide to deciding if my choices are good ones. I am happy because I believe I am finally starting to fulfill the purpose of my existence after all these years. I believe that purpose is serving God by serving humanity, knowing God and trying to love God.

The physical circumstances of my life are not optimal right now, but I can deal with them until I have time to improve them. Retirement is looking large in the horizon.
What else can we go by except to simply let others make those choices for us and accept the result however unhappy it made us, like a bad arranged marriage?
Imo, we should never let others make choices for us. I am a firm believer in free will and with that goes making our own choices. That is one reason I never try to convince anyone to believe in God or Baha’u’llah even though I am always being asked to. It is not my job to convince anyone and if I did it would not be their belief, because it was not their free choice based upon their own research.
I did, and that is how I knew to abandon Christianity. It was the opposite of satisfying. It left me with cognitive dissonance for as long as I tried to make sense of it. I traded it for something more satisfying, And as I have said, that is the measure of a good worldview.
Tell me about it. ;) Most of the people I have been posting to for the last six years are atheists, most of whom were formerly Christians, so I think I understand a lot about that experience. There are some things about Christianity I find attractive but they are emotion-based, not reason-based, so I know I could never be a Christian. I could never be any religion but Baha’i; otherwise I would probably be agnostic.
You might say that I should choose another religious path, perhaps Baha'i, But I would simply return to that world of cognitive dissonance, since, as I and others have pointed out, many of us cannot simply make ourselves believe anything without good evidence to support the belief, so I would be living an inauthentic existence. I learned that from my Christian experience.
I do not think you should believe in any religion unless the evidence indicates to you that it is true. That is the only reason I am a Baha’i, I have no mushy gushy feelings about God and no emotional attachment to Baha’u’llah the way Christians are attached to Jesus.
Also, how could I forget how much better life was before returning to religion? Once again, I return to saying that this inner sense is my guide, and it tells me to stay the present course.
I am happy that you are happy and I believe we need to listen to that inner voice. Of course, nobody knows what the future holds.

I would only encourage you not to make hasty generalizations because not all religions are like Christianity. It is in a class by itself. ;)
 
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