Straw Man and God

TransmutingSoul · Nov 29, 2019

KAT-KAT said:
Does this God hear their prayers? Even if many people are somehow getting His true nature wrong?

God knows all our thoughts, all our life before we live it, our life is a gift of the choices we face every moment we exist. Our choices reflect what is from God or what is from our own self, Strawman are a choice.

Foreknowledge is not a cause, we are the cause of what we can be, individually and collectively. All our thoughts and actions also play a part in our material world, we can bring upon ourselves material catastrophic events, or find a balance in Love and unity.

Regards Tony

PoetPhilosopher · Nov 29, 2019

Okay, I'll try to give how this relates to my life...

I feel a tugging emotion in my heart when I worship. I feel myself reaching for a higher self in my soul.

Sure it can be just a sort of evolved mechanism of the brain, maybe.

I feel when I worship Jesus, and when I worship Krishna.

I don't feel worshipping inanimate objects.

But as to what it all means, no idea.

mikkel_the_dane · Nov 29, 2019

KAT-KAT said:
Okay so, if you were to ask a Seventh Day Adventist which they saw to be correct for themselves, they would probably lean more toward the black heart. A Universalist would probably lean more toward the red heart.

If you want to say such an example is wrong or too narrow-minded, that's fine. But I was pretty much asking, what amount of correctness would be needed to accurately worship God, when talking our perceptions of Him?

That is unknown. You don't have to believe anything about the origin of the universe. If you do, all you have, is faith.
So as a religious human, I look at God's work, nature and try to find the answer there and to me the answer is love, justice, hope, learning and so. And I have then faith in that God accepts that.

TransmutingSoul · Nov 29, 2019

KAT-KAT said:
Okay, I'll try to give how this relates to my life...

I feel a tugging emotion in my heart when I worship. I feel myself reaching for a higher self in my soul.

Sure it can be just a sort of evolved mechanism of the brain, maybe.

I feel when I worship Jesus, and when I worship Krishna.

I don't feel worshipping inanimate objects.

But as to what it all means, no idea.

All God's Messengers are the focal point of God, they are all we can know of God and they are the 'Self of God' in each age a Message was given.

Well done, they are the higher self within us, the self that God wants us to find.

Regards Tony

icehorse · Nov 29, 2019

I'm aware of "strawman proposals" as being very different and distinct from a strawman fallacy. I think the OP is making a strawman proposal?

julianalexander745 · Nov 29, 2019

KAT-KAT said:
So someone sets up a Straw Man of the force or forces which they think started the universe, in their mind. A deity.

For this example, yes, we'll assume the person believes that a deity or deities set the universe into motion.

Okay, so this person may picture God as a human when they visualize Him, when who knows, God could be an energy or not even look human. The person visualizing may even get a few other things wrong about Him.

Now, this person visualizes who their God is, with the intent to praise what amounts to the original, the creator or creators.

Does this God hear their prayers? Even if many people are somehow getting His true nature wrong?

Fair question.

Personally, I think it misses the intrinsic value that deities offer humanity.

God can't be proven/disproven - blah blah blah...

I used to be a brash young atheist until I realized that whether or not God exists in any conceivable form (let alone "hears prayers" in any conceivable form) is not what has ever been remotely important.

Higher powers of all kinds help people get through life and regardless of how totally cooked some of the ideas about God are, if prayer and belief allow people to live better lives for themselves and others, the questions of objectivity and veracity seem suddenly trivial.

PureX · Nov 29, 2019

KAT-KAT said:
I feel a tugging emotion in my heart when I worship. I feel myself reaching for a higher self in my soul.

Sure it can be just a sort of evolved mechanism of the brain, maybe.

Just?

KAT-KAT said:
I feel when I worship Jesus, and when I worship Krishna.

I don't feel worshipping inanimate objects.

But as to what it all means, no idea.

If I were to take a powerful hallucinogenic drug, and see/meet God in a vision while under it's influence, does the fact that I am under the influence of the drug de-legitimize my experience of God? I see no logical reason that I should assume so. Any more than I should assume that because I need to use a microscope to see a virus that the vision of the virus isn't legitimate because it was "caused" by the microscope.

The means you use to access (what you/we refer to as) "God" does not legitimize, nor de-legitimize your experience God. It's just your way into that realm of experience. It may or may not be the same as my way in. And we may not all even have a way in to that kind of experience.

PoetPhilosopher · Nov 29, 2019

icehorse said:
I'm aware of "strawman proposals" as being very different and distinct from a strawman fallacy. I think the OP is making a strawman proposal?

I actually kind of think I had both ideas in mind. Sorry, I'm not always coherent. But anyways, I definitely didn't mean it in a negative way. I say this because the word straw man in an argument has a negative sense to it.

PureX · Nov 29, 2019

julianalexander745 said:
I used to be a brash young atheist until I realized that whether or not God exists in any conceivable form (let alone "hears prayers" in any conceivable form) is not what has ever been remotely important.

Higher powers of all kinds help people get through life and regardless of how totally cooked some of the ideas about God are, if prayer and belief allow people to live better lives for themselves and others, the questions of objectivity and veracity seem suddenly trivial.

AMEN BROTHER! I am very glad you're here.

dybmh · Nov 29, 2019

KAT-KAT said:
Yeah... I think I might, possibly........

So maybe expand that, so that worship is just one of many swinging pendulums in a multidimensional approach towards the divine.

The result is more like waves in the ocean.

PoetPhilosopher · Nov 29, 2019

dybmh said:
So maybe expand that, so that worship is just one of many swinging pendulums in a multidimensional approach towards the divine.

The result is more waves in the ocean.

Good idea.

My own thoughts were a bit more simple beforehand. Like on one hand, I saw what qualifications it took for a person to get to heaven, the afterlife. On the other hand, I saw what methods or qualifications it took to be granted peace of mind and strength, a mental heaven, while on this Earth, with the help of said deity.

SigurdReginson · Nov 29, 2019

Interesting god concept. I feel that if an all knowing god does exist, It might realise that the person was directing their prayers to it instead of what the people may think is "The Great Spirit of the Mountain." What about pantheons or other gods, though? When someone prays to many gods for many gifts, would all of those prayers be directed towards that god? What if prayers were offered to a god with positive and negative traits that the deity might not identify with? Odin grants wisdom and inspiration, but he's also a god who creates war and accepts human sacrifices. What about when people pray to evil gods for good outcomes? Would this god ignore the fact they were praying to Ahriman, the Persian deity of pure darkness and evil, for the sake that they just want to help their child who is terminally ill?

I like the idea that an all knowing and all wise god would be able to see past people's attempts at knowing it for the intent they have. This makes for a very all encompassing kind of deity. However, it would still just be a god concept among many.

KAT-KAT said:
Okay, I'll try to give how this relates to my life...

I feel a tugging emotion in my heart when I worship. I feel myself reaching for a higher self in my soul.

Sure it can be just a sort of evolved mechanism of the brain, maybe.

I feel when I worship Jesus, and when I worship Krishna.

I don't feel worshipping inanimate objects.

But as to what it all means, no idea.

Do you attend temple or church services by chance?

dybmh · Nov 29, 2019

@KAT-KAT ,

Maybe this is a weird question, but, have you ever looked into Liberation Theology?

PoetPhilosopher · Nov 29, 2019

SigurdReginson said:
New Interesting god concept. I feel that if an all knowing god does exist, It might realise that the person was directing their prayers to it instead of what the people may think is "The Great Spirit of the Mountain." What about pantheons or other gods, though? When someone prays to many gods for many gifts, would all of those prayers be directed towards that god? What if prayers were offered to a god with positive and negative traits that the deity might not identify with? Odin grants wisdom and inspiration, but he's also a god who creates war and accepts human sacrifices. What about when people pray to evil gods for good outcomes? Would this god ignore the fact they were praying to Ahriman, the Persian deity of pure darkness and evil, for the sake that they just want to help their child who is terminally ill?

I like the idea that an all knowing and all wise god would be able to see past people's attempts at knowing it for the intent they have. This makes for a very all encompassing kind of deity. However, it would still just be a god concept among many.

Great expansion and explanation of my thoughts.

SigurdReginson said:
Do you attend temple or church services by chance?

Not yet.

PoetPhilosopher · Nov 29, 2019

dybmh said:
@KAT-KAT ,

Maybe this is a weird question, but, have you ever looked into Liberation Theology?

I don't think I really have.

dybmh · Nov 29, 2019

KAT-KAT said:
I don't think I really have.

I think Hinduism might be a great fit for you... I'm not saying anything against it.

But you strike me as an activist. And that reminds me of Liberation Theology.

Left Coast · Nov 29, 2019

mikkel_the_dane said:
]Why are we assuming that whatever "set the universe into motion" is some kind of natural and non-conscious?

I agree! Which means we are therefore resigned to the honest truth of saying, "I don't know."

The correct question is: Why do we assume that is possible to know the ontological status of the origin of the universe or if there was one at all? If we are skeptical, as your question is, then why not start with the core epistemological question of can we know the ontological status of the universe itself?

I tend to agree with you that we can't know "the ontological status of the universe itself." And if the answer to a question is unattainable, the rational position is to remain unconvinced of any claim regarding it.

SigurdReginson · Nov 29, 2019

KAT-KAT said:
Great expansion and explanation of my thoughts.

Not yet.

Oh, yet? Did you have an idea for ones you wanted to attend? Where I live there are many different churches and temples from a lot of different religions. Everything from the local country Baptist church to the newly built Sikhi temple.

PoetPhilosopher · Nov 29, 2019

SigurdReginson said:
Oh, yet? Did you have an idea for ones you wanted to attend? Where I live there are many different churches and temples from a lot of different religions. Everything from the local country Baptist church to the newly built Sikhi temple.

There's a Hindu temple in my town. Haven't had a chance to research about it yet, though.

PureX · Nov 29, 2019

SigurdReginson said:
What about pantheons or other gods, though? When someone prays to many gods for many gifts, would all of those prayers be directed towards that god? What if prayers were offered to a god with positive and negative traits that the deity might not identify with? Odin grants wisdom and inspiration, but he's also a god who creates war and accepts human sacrifices. What about when people pray to evil gods for good outcomes? Would this god ignore the fact they were praying to Ahriman, the Persian deity of pure darkness and evil, for the sake that they just want to help their child who is terminally ill?

Most religious 'pantheons' come with the understanding that each of the various gods are specified representations of a kind of arch-God concept. The god of the sea, for example, is a representation of divine influence as it relates to the sea. Whereas a god of fertility is a representation of divine influence as it pertains to matters of reproduction. And so on. Pantheons are just multiple representations of a divine 'God-head'. Not dissimilar to the Christian trinity, wherein "Christ" and the "Holy Spirit" are specified representations of God's will, wisdom, and spirit, as manifested (to us) in various ways: both internally, and externally.

Straw Man and God

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

My own religion

Veteran Member

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist

Active Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש

Veteran Member

Grēne Mann

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש

This Is Water

Grēne Mann

Veteran Member

Veteran Member