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Debate on Creationism

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Of course.
The invention of bullets ... atom bomb have been harming quite a few. So it's not that science is totally harmless I would say

Ow boy..........................


Science is responsible for atomic theory.
Atomic bombs are a political engineering project, that uses the findings of science concerning atomic theory.

Atomic theory is also widely used in medical applications. From scanners to cancer treatments.
The fact of the matter is that you could add another 10 nagasaki's to our history, and still atomic theory based technology would have saved FAR MORE people through it's medical applications then through atomic bomb victims.

Having said that, again: the science is atomic theory. Atomic bombs are practical applications of the findings of science. Scientists didn't decide to build these bombs nore commissioned them. Politicians did that.


I think that Spiritual insights won't give that problem. Even the opposite, because Spirituality means IMO to improve and realize your Self
(Spirituality in this context is totally different than Religion IMO; most religious people are more outward going, e.g. evangelizing. I am not)

"spiritual insights" wouldn't even come up with atomic theory.
And let's not pretend as if "spiritual insights" never leads to any harm.

Contrary to the atomic bomb thingy, the harm caused by "spiritual insights" is actually a direct result of "spiritual insights". People in Nigeria, for example, wouldn't be burning 'witches' if it wasn't for their "spiritual insight" that witches are real and have to be killed.

Nore would gay people be prosecuted due to the "spiritual insight" that they are an "abomination".
Nore would people fly planes into buildings due to the "spiritual insight" that infidels must die.



I believe Spirituality is a personal inner Quest. Better not to evangelize. Those who really want to know, will search for themselves.

And they will come to very very very different conclusions then you do.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I also believe one can be Spiritual without believing in God.
I consider myself spiritual. But I see no reason to capitalize the word.

I consider myself such, because of my love for art, like music and things.
Because I like to reflect on things. I love listening to a piece of music, closing my eyes and going on whatever "journey" that that music is taking me to.
I can go sit behind my drumkit, playing a certain groove for like half an hour non-stop and simply focussing on every single movement, getting every single hit to perfection in terms of sound, volume, timing,... To the point that I actually enter some kind of "trance" from which I literally need a minute or so to "wake up from" when the session is over.
I can go out into my garden at night and just stare at the beauty of the stars in the sky, hopefully catch a falling star here or there.
I've even caught myself watching a spider create its web for 10 minutes straight, and just appreciating its effort and the beauty thereof.

I think such things are mind-expanding and relaxing experiences and I feel enriched by them in terms of emotions and personal growth.
I'ld call such things "spiritual experiences".

None of that requires anything supernatural.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Nothing can "debunk" god because god literally is an unfalsifiable idea.
Like undetectable gravity regulating pixies. It's impossible to falsify because it is defined as unfalsifiable.

Incidently, such ideas are without any value or merrit, with zero explanatory power.
They are also potentially infinite in number, restricted only by your own imagination.

Unfalsifiable models without explanatory power, are a complete waste of time.



Textbook argument from ignorance.

Akin to "gravity exists, science doesn't know how it exists, therefor undetectable graviton regulating pixies created gravity"



Arguments infested with unsupported premises, assumed conclusions, arguments from ignorance, special pleading and other logical fallacies, are never "valid" nore "logical".


It also has little value in determining anything about undetectable gravity regulating pixies, for the exact same reason.
You of all people should know that gravity is due to the FSM and his Noodly Appendages, Ramen.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
It's not an opinion.

Methods that don't yield results, are methods that don't work.
It's that simple.



And I'll make progress, and you'll just sit there.



It's not about being "happy". It's about actually achieving results and using methods that actually work.
I know myself

You don't

A fact
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Ow boy..........................


Science is responsible for atomic theory.
Atomic bombs are a political engineering project, that uses the findings of science concerning atomic theory.

Atomic theory is also widely used in medical applications. From scanners to cancer treatments.
The fact of the matter is that you could add another 10 nagasaki's to our history, and still atomic theory based technology would have saved FAR MORE people through it's medical applications then through atomic bomb victims.

Having said that, again: the science is atomic theory. Atomic bombs are practical applications of the findings of science. Scientists didn't decide to build these bombs nore commissioned them. Politicians did that.
Totally misreading what I said

"spiritual insights" wouldn't even come up with atomic theory.
And let's not pretend as if "spiritual insights" never leads to any harm.

Contrary to the atomic bomb thingy, the harm caused by "spiritual insights" is actually a direct result of "spiritual insights". People in Nigeria, for example, wouldn't be burning 'witches' if it wasn't for their "spiritual insight" that witches are real and have to be killed.

Nore would gay people be prosecuted due to the "spiritual insight" that they are an "abomination".
Nore would people fly planes into buildings due to the "spiritual insight" that infidels must die.
Again totally misreading what I said

And they will come to very very very different conclusions then you do.
Yes
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I consider myself spiritual. But I see no reason to capitalize the word.
I have no problem with you not-capitalizing. You have a problem with me capitalizing them?

I consider myself such, because of my love for art, like music and things.
Because I like to reflect on things. I love listening to a piece of music, closing my eyes and going on whatever "journey" that that music is taking me to.
I can go sit behind my drumkit, playing a certain groove for like half an hour non-stop and simply focussing on every single movement, getting every single hit to perfection in terms of sound, volume, timing,... To the point that I actually enter some kind of "trance" from which I literally need a minute or so to "wake up from" when the session is over.
I can go out into my garden at night and just stare at the beauty of the stars in the sky, hopefully catch a falling star here or there.
I've even caught myself watching a spider create its web for 10 minutes straight, and just appreciating its effort and the beauty thereof.

I think such things are mind-expanding and relaxing experiences and I feel enriched by them in terms of emotions and personal growth.
I'ld call such things "spiritual experiences".
So, it seems we do agree on some things

None of that requires anything supernatural.
I never said Spirituality needs anything supernatural, so we also agree on this one.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hello. I am going to challenge Creationists, more specifically Muslim or Christian Creationists, to present their best logical evidence for God. Since this is not science vs. religion, I don't want anything that's trying to pointlessly debunk evolution since it will only extend the argument or anything like that. I'll try to disprove yours logically, and the cycle will continue until one side stops debating.

Depends on your definition of God, and of course that of the opponent you seek.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Depends on your definition of God, and of course that of the opponent you seek.
True, neither Christians nor Muslims are monolithic in their belief in God. Of course many believers in God are somewhat to blame for this attitude. I know that many Christian creationists claim that those that reject the myths of Genesis are not real Christians.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
B
Nothing can "debunk" god because god literally is an unfalsifiable idea.
Like undetectable gravity regulating pixies. It's impossible to falsify because it is defined as unfalsifiable.

Incidently, such ideas are without any value or merrit, with zero explanatory power.
They are also potentially infinite in number, restricted only by your own imagination.

Unfalsifiable models without explanatory power, are a complete waste of time.



Textbook argument from ignorance.

Akin to "gravity exists, science doesn't know how it exists, therefor undetectable graviton regulating pixies created gravity"



Arguments infested with unsupported premises, assumed conclusions, arguments from ignorance, special pleading and other logical fallacies, are never "valid" nore "logical".


It also has little value in determining anything about undetectable gravity regulating pixies, for the exact same reason.
Blah, blah, blah. What does this have to do with the OP or my response regarding logic ? Absolutely nothing. Just grinding your particular axe.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You of all people should know that gravity is due to the FSM and his Noodly Appendages, Ramen.

Hey, don't put me in the same boat as those wonna-be pasta heritics!

There is only one True Monster and it's not made of filthy spaghetti, but tagliatelli instead

And please, don't even get me started on the wickedness of those blasphemous ravioli's and other such denominations....
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Blah, blah, blah. What does this have to do with the OP or my response regarding logic ? Absolutely nothing. Just grinding your particular axe.

Showing how your argumentation fails, seems pretty relevant to the point you're trying to make with that argumentation.

But you've made clear with your "blablabla" how much you care about your argumentation actually being valid.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The Templeton Prize honors a living person who has made an exceptional contribution to affirming life’s spiritual dimension, whether through insight, discovery, or practical works.

Not to mention the saying above the prestigious Cavendish laboratory in England
The works of the Lord are great; sought out of all them that have pleasure therein’. This use of a Bible passage in architecture is somewhat unusual for a university physics laboratory that was built in 1973.

There you have it! A quotation from the classical Psalm 112

So, it is like winning, as an astronomer, a prize for exceptional contributions to astrology. Or something like that.

Ciao

- viole
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Well... it is, if this "spirituality" time and again fails to add to any understanding about anything, which surely has been the case. In fact, it seems to me that it only ever leads to false answers.
TagliatelliMonster, you miss something here. Spirituality is not about creation or evolution, it is about 'after creation' (if I may say so). It concerns Societies, people and environment. It is a different field though related to science, sociology, psychology, etc.
Obviously, you could claim that everything came to exist by chance, but that is logically very poor belief, because we don’t see any evidence for such thing to be possible.
Chance is when an asteroid hits the earth and there have been thousands of such cases or even millions. Or you would claim that your God threw them here.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
From secular scientist Dr Marcello Gleiser, winner of the Templeton Prize, "It's extremely arrogant from scientists to come down from the ivory towers and make these declarations without understanding the social importance of belief systems."

I presume that he is referring to religious worldviews. Important to whom? Religions aren't important to me or anybody else who has learned to navigate life outside of all of them. What I find arrogant is somebody like this telling me that I should value or respect a belief system because somebody else needs it. That's fine for them, just as some people need glasses to see well. But I'd say that being able to see well without glasses is preferable, as is living without religion for those who can.

We don't need religions for there to be social cohesion. In fact, religions are a major source of bigotry, hatreds, and wars.

"When you hear very famous scientists making pronouncements like ... cosmology has explained the origin of the universe and the whole, and we don't need God anymore. That's complete nonsense," he added. "Because we have not explained the origin of the universe at all."

We don't need a god hypothesis for anything any more. We have naturalistic hypotheses and theories to account for how the world works every day (why the sun appears to go through the sky without invoking Apollo, how lightning forms without Thor, etc), how the universe and the life in it evolved from (material evolution = Big Bang cosmology, biological evolution), and for the origins of these seed states (multiverse generates the seeds of universes, chemical evolution = abiogenesis generates the first replicators).

Gods have been excluded from the daily operation of the universe (leading to the birth of deism) and its evolution. They have not been excluded from the twin origins problems, but they are not needed until naturalistic possibilities have been ruled out, a very unlikely occurance given that we only see supernaturalistic explanations being ruled out (no more Thor or Apollo) and replaced with naturalistic ones

Yeah, and because created things exist, we have strong evidence for Creator.

You're begging the question if to you, created means deliberately created by a sentient, volitional, potent agent. Mindless processes also create. Plate tectonics tells us how the earth creates volcanoes, earthquakes, and mountain ranges, but no other creator (or Creator) than the earth's crust, the magma below it, and the laws of physics is needed.

Obviously, you could claim that everything came to exist by chance, but that is logically very poor belief, because we don’t see any evidence for such thing to be possible.

You don't see the evidence that our present universe could have arisen due to blind natural forces absent an intelligent designer? I do, as do millions of other people.

Life exists, science doesn´t know how it exists, therefore, God created life.

There s no physical evidence of God, all things have physical evidence, therefore God does not exist.

Both syllogisms are valid, both logical, yet opposite of one another.

Neither of those syllogisms is valid. Both contain logical fallacies. They are two forms of argument from ignorance, one saying that if you can't tell us how life came to exist, it must be due to a god, and the other being that if you can't produce evidence of a god, god are ruled out.

Logic has little value in determining anything about God.

I can rule out the god of the Christian Bible with logic alone. That god is described as possessing mutually exclusive traits at the same time, such as having and granting free will while also knowing all future events, or who is perfect, but also makes errors that he regrets and tries to correct as with the flood story. The law of contradiction tells us that no such thing can exist.

This argument doesn't rule out the possibility of gods, just logically impossible ones.

I've even heard atheists refer to themselves as spiritual, not because they believe in a supernatural or spiritual realm, but rather, because they are not afraid to admit that the human mind has all kinds of components.

Agreed. The religious have no monopoly on spirituality. Furthermore, I would add that they misinterpret the spiritual experience, which is one of euphoria, a sense of mystery and wonder, a sense of gratitude, a sense of awe, and a sense of connectivity. These are generated by our own minds - pleasant psychological states, but just psychological states nevertheless, not due to experiencing a god.

Scientific knowledge greatly enhances the spiritual experience of one's world. Looking out at the night sky and recognizing what you are experiencing - how connected we are to that star, how far the drop of light has traveled to inform one's eyes of its presence, and the understanding that we are made of stardust, is an authentic spiritual experience.

I find nothing spiritual in believing in spirits like gods, angels, and demons. Nor in a faith like Christianity that rips the adherent out of his universe, describing matter and flesh as base, man as sick, recommending detaching oneself from the world and not trusting one's own mind not to be a demon trying to steal his soul. He is told to deflect his attention and gratitude to a god and place that don't exist (see the logical ), and to live life as if he is waiting at some kind of cosmic bus stop waiting to be carried away to someplace better. I find nothing spiritual there. That's the opposite of connectivity. That's alienation at just about every level.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
I presume that he is referring to religious worldviews. Important to whom? Religions aren't important to me or anybody else who has learned to navigate life outside of all of them. What I find arrogant is somebody like this telling me that I should value or respect a belief system because somebody else needs it. That's fine for them, just as some people need glasses to see well. But I'd say that being able to see well without glasses is preferable, as is living without religion for those who can.

We don't need religions for there to be social cohesion. In fact, religions are a major source of bigotry, hatreds, and wars.



We don't need a god hypothesis for anything any more. We have naturalistic hypotheses and theories to account for how the world works every day (why the sun appears to go through the sky without invoking Apollo, how lightning forms without Thor, etc), how the universe and the life in it evolved from (material evolution = Big Bang cosmology, biological evolution), and for the origins of these seed states (multiverse generates the seeds of universes, chemical evolution = abiogenesis generates the first replicators).

Gods have been excluded from the daily operation of the universe (leading to the birth of deism) and its evolution. They have not been excluded from the twin origins problems, but they are not needed until naturalistic possibilities have been ruled out, a very unlikely occurance given that we only see supernaturalistic explanations being ruled out (no more Thor or Apollo) and replaced with naturalistic ones



You're begging the question if to you, created means deliberately created by a sentient, volitional, potent agent. Mindless processes also create. Plate tectonics tells us how the earth creates volcanoes, earthquakes, and mountain ranges, but no other creator (or Creator) than the earth's crust, the magma below it, and the laws of physics is needed.



You don't see the evidence that our present universe could have arisen due to blind natural forces absent an intelligent designer? I do, as do millions of other people.



Neither of those syllogisms is valid. Both contain logical fallacies. They are two forms of argument from ignorance, one saying that if you can't tell us how life came to exist, it must be due to a god, and the other being that if you can't produce evidence of a god, god are ruled out.



I can rule out the god of the Christian Bible with logic alone. That god is described as possessing mutually exclusive traits at the same time, such as having and granting free will while also knowing all future events, or who is perfect, but also makes errors that he regrets and tries to correct as with the flood story. The law of contradiction tells us that no such thing can exist.

This argument doesn't rule out the possibility of gods, just logically impossible ones.



Agreed. The religious have no monopoly on spirituality. Furthermore, I would add that they misinterpret the spiritual experience, which is one of euphoria, a sense of mystery and wonder, a sense of gratitude, a sense of awe, and a sense of connectivity. These are generated by our own minds - pleasant psychological states, but just psychological states nevertheless, not due to experiencing a god.

Scientific knowledge greatly enhances the spiritual experience of one's world. Looking out at the night sky and recognizing what you are experiencing - how connected we are to that star, how far the drop of light has traveled to inform one's eyes of its presence, and the understanding that we are made of stardust, is an authentic spiritual experience.

I find nothing spiritual in believing in spirits like gods, angels, and demons. Nor in a faith like Christianity that rips the adherent out of his universe, describing matter and flesh as base, man as sick, recommending detaching oneself from the world and not trusting one's own mind not to be a demon trying to steal his soul. He is told to deflect his attention and gratitude to a god and place that don't exist (see the logical ), and to live life as if he is waiting at some kind of cosmic bus stop waiting to be carried away to someplace better. I find nothing spiritual there. That's the opposite of connectivity. That's alienation at just about every level.


Regarding "We don't need religions for there to be social cohesion" Under Atheism quite a large number of people died in the 20th century.
 
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