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Debate on Creationism

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I only said that it's not scientific or logical to dismiss or belittle Spirituality as being of value to understand things in the universe

Well... it is, if this "spirituality" time and again fails to add to any understanding about anything, which surely has been the case. In fact, it seems to me that it only ever leads to false answers.

Logic then dictates that that "method" of inquiry, doesn't yield results and thus doesn't work. Meaning that the method best be dismissed and replaced by a method that DOES work. You know... like science.

, when we have no personal actual deep experience in this field

No, the "method of spirituality" doesn't work either if the one using it doesn't have any experience in the field in question. :rolleyes:

That would be as foolish as if an eight year old would dismiss Einsteins E=mc2

Errr....
E = mc² was obtained through science, not through "spirituality". And Einstein knew his field quite well also.

So not sure how you think this is an apropriate analogy at all....

Only dismissing it, because he does not understand, and Einstein is not able to explain it to him does not make this a smart choice.

There's nothing to understand here...
Either your method yields result or it doesn't.
I don't have to know the details of the method to understand that if it doesn't yield results, then it doesn't work.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Because extremely complex, interactive information exists

Do you think such information arises by chance?

Empirical science states otherwise.

(Empirical) science says that information is constant. Like Energy.

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The big bang is not a causal explanation. It's like pulling rabbit out of a hat without a rabbit, without a hat and without a magician.

From secular scientist Dr Marcello Gleiser, winner of the Templeton Prize,

"It's extremely arrogant from scientists to come down from the ivory towers and make these declarations without understanding the social importance of belief systems."

"When you hear very famous scientists making pronouncements like ... cosmology has explained the origin of the universe and the whole, and we don't need God anymore. That's complete nonsense," he added.

"Because we have not explained the origin of the universe at all."

The Templeton prize? Mmh, probably as prestigious as the Ken Ham prize, if he had one. I would call that prize a badge of dishonor.

And who cares about the social importance of people superstitions? Should I take care of not ridiculing people who believe that black cats crossing a road bring bad luck? Or who believe that garden fairies are actually eating the carrots in their garden?

If not, what makes them think that Jesus is more plausible than the above mentioned cats and carrot eaters?

Ciao

- viole
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
For what it's worth, here is what we should expect to see under young-earth creationism.

For this exercise, I'll assume a typical young-earth Biblical creation story. If someone else has a different story, they can see what I've done below and do the same thing with theirs.

A GENERAL TIMELINE
Before we generate a hypothesized expectation of the data, we need to lay out the framework that generates it. In rough chronological order, YEC states....

In six days, approximately 6,000-10,000 years ago:

--God creates the earth. He creates water, then the sky, then land.
--God creates life on earth. He creates seed-bearing plants and fruit trees first (all after their own "kind").
--God creates the sun and the moon.
--God creates more life on earth. He creates aquatic organisms (all after their own "kind").
--God creates more life on earth. He creates terrestrial organisms (all after their own "kind", including livestock).
--God creates two humans, one male and one female.
--There is no death and everything is perfect. There are no carnivores, diseases, parasites, etc. --Humans sin, bringing death to the earth.
--This continues for around 2,000 years.
--God then floods the entire earth, killing everything except 8 people and representative specimens of each "kind".
--All subsequent humans and life on earth are descended from these survivors.​

As I said, that's very basic, but should give us something upon which to base an expectation of what the data should look like if the above actually happened.

THE FOSSIL RECORD/GEOLOGIC COLUMN
Given the above, we would expect the fossil record to look something like this....

Depending on how long Adam and Eve lived in perfection before they sinned, we would either expect 1) if they lived in perfection a long time, the earliest strata would have absolutely no fossil specimens (nothing died to be fossilized), or 2) if they lived in perfection only a short time, the earliest strata would contain fossilized seed-bearing plants, fruit trees, aquatic organisms, livestock, terrestrial organisms, and some signs of human existence (perhaps not skeletal remains, but other archaeological evidence). Also, those organisms that lived in perfection only to later die should show some indications of perfection, e.g. the earliest representatives of the "cat kind" or the "shark kind" should have characteristics that allow them to be herbivorous.

Further, these early fossilized specimens would be representative of each "kind" with little variation or diversity. For example, if there were "frog", "cat", "bird", "fruit tree", etc. kinds, then the earliest strata should only show basal representatives (one or a few species) of all the "kinds". And since all "kinds" were instantaneously created in six days, representatives of each "kind" should all be mixed together in the same strata. IOW, we should see basal cats with basal theropods and such.

As we move forward in time (represented by younger strata, on top of the older strata), all "kinds" would show increasing diversity. We would also expect to see more and more indications of humans spreading across the globe during this time. This would continue until the global flood.

The global flood would be definitively marked in the geologic column by the sort of strata that we know are generated by flooding. In the midst of these strata, we would not expect to see formations that we know would be impossible under such an event, e.g. seasonal layers in lake bottoms, signs of alternating drying/wetting in areas, animal tracks, wind-blown formations, etc.

In the fossil record, we would expect to see an extraordinarily and unmistakably large increase in the numbers of fossilized organisms worldwide, all in the same strata. They would be sorted according to how they would perish in the flood. All benthic marine organisms would be found first (e.g. lobsters, clams, crabs, scallops, starfish, sea urchins, trilobites, and all the other now-extinct benthic marine species (e.g. the ones we know from the Cambrian). Terrestrial animals would generally be sorted by size/density/escapement ability. For example, large dinosaurs and elephants would be mixed together (or at least very close to each other), followed by medium sized organisms (dinosaurs and mammals) mixed together, with smaller and smaller terrestrial animals appearing in greater numbers as we go up.

Organisms that could fly would be expected later and things like eagles, pterosaurs, and bats would be mixed together.

Aquatic animals like sea otters, sea lions, ambulocetus, plesiosaurs, fish, and sharks would appear much higher as they would survive longer.

Most plants would be fossilized where they are and should merely reflect their location at the time of the flood.

The strata representing the last of the flood would contain far fewer, if any fossils, as whatever was going to die would have died.

The strata representing the first several years after the flood would contain very, very few, if any, fossils as all "kinds" are represented by either a single pair or seven individuals. Any fossils we would find should be found around the area where the ark came to rest. We would also expect almost no trace fossils (e.g. tracks, droppings).

After representatives of each "kind" reached their geographic areas (e.g. kangaroos in Australia, penguins in the Antarctic, pandas in Asia), they would reappear in the fossil record. We would then expect the fossil record to show extremely rapid evolution across the board as all species within each "kind" are produced until we see the diversity of species around us today.

So overall, we would expect each "kind" to show a general pattern of very low diversity, followed by increasing diversity, followed by massive extinction (down to a single species), followed by absence/extremely low diversity in the fossil record (any fossils should only be of the same species that rode the ark), followed by extremely rapid evolution and diversification.
The same should hold true for archaeological evidence for humans.

Also in general, we should never see any organisms that show mixtures of characteristics of different "kinds".

DATING TECHNIQUES
We would expect dating techniques to give results no older than 10,000 years.

GENETICS
We would expect comparative genetics to clearly indicate the delineations between "kinds". We would expect all "kinds" to be genetically equidistant from each other.

We would also expect every species alive on earth to show indications of the same extreme population bottleneck at the same time, when each "kind" was reduced to a single species during the flood.

HUMAN CULTURES
All pre-flood non-Semitic (or whatever Noah and family were) cultures should disappear completely, and all their remains, constructions, and other artifacts should be found buried in flood strata.

All post-flood cultures should only be able to trace their history back a few thousand years, with a pattern of the oldest cultures being in areas immediately around Noah's landing place and cultures being younger and younger the farther away they are from the landing place.

Ok, that's about all I can cover right now. I'm sure I've missed several other categories of data, but these are the main ones I wanted to cover.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Nope, you are assuming a creation. This is terribly failed logic. Things exist, we are debating if there was a creator or not...

Yeah, and because created things exist, we have strong evidence for Creator. Obviously, you could claim that everything came to exist by chance, but that is logically very poor belief, because we don’t see any evidence for such thing to be possible.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yeah, and because created things exist, we have strong evidence for Creator. Obviously, you could claim that everything came to exist by chance, but that is logically very poor belief, because we don’t see any evidence for such thing to be possible.
But just because created things in everyday experience are created, it doesn't follow that all things require creation, much less a creator.
Modern theoretical physics is completely at odds with commonsense explanations.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yeah, and because created things exist, we have strong evidence for Creator. Obviously, you could claim that everything came to exist by chance, but that is logically very poor belief, because we don’t see any evidence for such thing to be possible.
The only "created things" that exist are man made. How does that support your beliefs?

your logic appears to be very faulty.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yeah, and because created things exist, we have strong evidence for Creator. Obviously, you could claim that everything came to exist by chance, but that is logically very poor belief, because we don’t see any evidence for such thing to be possible.
The only "created things" that exist are man made. How does that support your beliefs?

your logic appears to be very faulty.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Well... it is, if this "spirituality" time and again fails to add to any understanding about anything, which surely has been the case. In fact, it seems to me that it only ever leads to false answers.

Logic then dictates that that "method" of inquiry, doesn't yield results and thus doesn't work. Meaning that the method best be dismissed and replaced by a method that DOES work. You know... like science.



No, the "method of spirituality" doesn't work either if the one using it doesn't have any experience in the field in question. :rolleyes:



Errr....
E = mc² was obtained through science, not through "spirituality". And Einstein knew his field quite well also.

So not sure how you think this is an apropriate analogy at all....



There's nothing to understand here...
Either your method yields result or it doesn't.
I don't have to know the details of the method to understand that if it doesn't yield results, then it doesn't work.

Thank you, for sharing your opinion on this. We think different about this, but that's fine with me. You do it your way, I do it my way. If you get "happy" your way, and I get "happy" my way, there is no problem whatsoever,
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
What about the "atomic structure" is complex? What about the "many varieties of cells" is complex?

I didn't say logic does debunk religion, I said it's the only thing that, within reason, can debunk God. It is up to you to decide if logic debunks God, but it is the best tool of all of them to debunk Him.
Logic is a method of finding if a proposition is valid. Logic cannot identify truth.

Logic cannot ¨ debunk " God.

Life exists, science doesn´t know how it exists, therefore, God created life.

There s no physical evidence of God, all things have physical evidence, therefore God does not exist.

Both syllogisms are valid, both logical, yet opposite of one another.

Logic has little value in determining anything about God.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
I only said that it's not scientific or logical to dismiss or belittle Spirituality as being of value to understand things in the universe, when we have no personal actual deep experience in this field.
Please share what claims you are proposing that have value in understanding the universe. Having a conscious experience that everything is One, or some such thing, for example; I'm not sure how experiences such as this explain anything.

I'm not belittling people who wish to enjoy various kinds of conscious experiences for their enjoyment or edification or whatever. As long as they are not harming anyone or society.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
The Templeton prize? Mmh, probably as prestigious as the Ken Ham prize, if he had one. I would call that prize a badge of dishonor.

And who cares about the social importance of people superstitions? Should I take care of not ridiculing people who believe that black cats crossing a road bring bad luck? Or who believe that garden fairies are actually eating the carrots in their garden?

If not, what makes them think that Jesus is more plausible than the above mentioned cats and carrot eaters?

Ciao

- viole

The Templeton Prize honors a living person who has made an exceptional contribution to affirming life’s spiritual dimension, whether through insight, discovery, or practical works.

Not to mention the saying above the prestigious Cavendish laboratory in England
The works of the Lord are great; sought out of all them that have pleasure therein’. This use of a Bible passage in architecture is somewhat unusual for a university physics laboratory that was built in 1973.

There you have it! A quotation from the classical Psalm 112
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I'm not belittling people who wish to enjoy various kinds of conscious experiences for their enjoyment or edification or whatever
Thank you.

As long as they are not harming anyone or society.
Of course.
The invention of bullets ... atom bomb have been harming quite a few. So it's not that science is totally harmless I would say
I think that Spiritual insights won't give that problem. Even the opposite, because Spirituality means IMO to improve and realize your Self
(Spirituality in this context is totally different than Religion IMO; most religious people are more outward going, e.g. evangelizing. I am not)

Having a conscious experience that everything is One, or some such thing, for example; I'm not sure how experiences such as this explain anything.
That is a good example.
Once you have such an experience, you will never feel the need to belittle other's (non) faith. This has been the source of many religious wars.

Please share what claims you are proposing that have value in understanding the universe
Why you keep asking for claims? I never made a claim. I have my own experiences, but feel no need to share them.
I believe Spirituality is a personal inner Quest. Better not to evangelize. Those who really want to know, will search for themselves.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
The invention of bullets ... atom bomb have been harming quite a few. So it's not that science is totally harmless I would say
Yes. Technology is developed based on perceived human needs. As brute beasts, we think we need weapons. Perhaps taking someone else's food to prevent starvation is justified in some people's minds. And then with tribalism where we kill for no good reason, well,... we are doomed as a species.

But this doesn't reflect badly on science, except when it logically leads to outrageous activities. Bioengineering to create slave labor that doesn't get tired and doesn't go on strike is an example of science that should not be done.

But I don't think the impulse to be outraged by such abuses of science; I don't think it comes from religion. It comes from moral sensibility.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
I think that Spiritual insights won't give that problem. Even the opposite, because Spirituality means IMO to improve and realize your Self
I've even heard atheists refer to themselves as spiritual, not because they believe in a supernatural or spiritual realm, but rather, because they are not afraid to admit that the human mind has all kinds of components. Just as the concept of love is not taboo, just so, with some atheists, the idea of spirituality (atheistic spirituality) is OK too. Maybe it's not very common, I don't know.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Having a conscious experience that everything is One, or some such thing, for example; I'm not sure how experiences such as this explain anything.
Why you keep asking for claims? I never made a claim. I have my own experiences, but feel no need to share them.
Sorry, I got mixed up and confused you with someone claiming that integrating spiritual experiences would improve science. It's hard to keep track of the various conversations on this forum as they all get tangled up and intertwined together with no easy way to sort them out.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I've even heard atheists refer to themselves as spiritual, not because they believe in a supernatural or spiritual realm, but rather, because they are not afraid to admit that the human mind has all kinds of components. Just as the concept of love is not taboo, just so, with some atheists, the idea of spirituality (atheistic spirituality) is OK too. Maybe it's not very common, I don't know.
I also believe one can be Spiritual without believing in God.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Thank you, for sharing your opinion on this.

It's not an opinion.

Methods that don't yield results, are methods that don't work.
It's that simple.

We think different about this, but that's fine with me. You do it your way, I do it my way.

And I'll make progress, and you'll just sit there.

If you get "happy" your way, and I get "happy" my way, there is no problem whatsoever,

It's not about being "happy". It's about actually achieving results and using methods that actually work.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Logic is a method of finding if a proposition is valid. Logic cannot identify truth.

Logic cannot ¨ debunk " God.

Nothing can "debunk" god because god literally is an unfalsifiable idea.
Like undetectable gravity regulating pixies. It's impossible to falsify because it is defined as unfalsifiable.

Incidently, such ideas are without any value or merrit, with zero explanatory power.
They are also potentially infinite in number, restricted only by your own imagination.

Unfalsifiable models without explanatory power, are a complete waste of time.

Life exists, science doesn´t know how it exists, therefore, God created life.

Textbook argument from ignorance.

Akin to "gravity exists, science doesn't know how it exists, therefor undetectable graviton regulating pixies created gravity"

There s no physical evidence of God, all things have physical evidence, therefore God does not exist

Both syllogisms are valid, both logical, yet opposite of one another.

Arguments infested with unsupported premises, assumed conclusions, arguments from ignorance, special pleading and other logical fallacies, are never "valid" nore "logical".

Logic has little value in determining anything about God.
It also has little value in determining anything about undetectable gravity regulating pixies, for the exact same reason.
 
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