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Why atheism and atheists are just wrong

sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Polymath257 said:
I have yet to see any logical theology. At the very least, theology has to make the logical leap to think there is something to talk about at all.

EVERY argument I have ever seen to show the existence of a deity is deeply flawed. Until that logical leap is repaired, theology has nothing to say at all. It really is simply rearranging biases.
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Theology doesn’t “show the existence of God,” though. That’s not it’s job.

If you want a pretty good book on theology, look for Sallie McFague’s The Body of God: An Ecological Theology.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Polymath257 said:
I think it is a mixed bag. Theism certainly has inspired great art, literature, and architecture. It often encourages us to explore the beauty and awesomeness of the world around us.

It has also inspired horrid oppression, cruelty, and slaughter. It tends to lead quickly to fundamentalism, which is almost always problematic. And it tends to dive people into 'us' and 'them' in a very counter-productive way. And it often promotes a type of regression from the world that I think is harmful.

On balance, I think the scales tip to it being a net negative. But there are times when religion seems to motivate people to do what needs to be done.
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But you don’t think that fundamentalism would exist without religion??? <cough> Communism.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Phaedrus said:
It becomes less of a generalization when you encounter it constantly.
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But again, I’m against the things you mention, too. In fact, I may dislike them more, because they profane something I hold very dear. I’m a member of the clergy in a mainstream denomination. I can hate these things but still espouse the religion. That’s s why I say that atheism often presents as reactionary.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
sojourner said:
But you claim beauty exists — it’s a thing. Where’s the quantitative proof? That seems to be what atheists ask for where God is concerned.
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Beauty is a personal thing. I am not going to insist that there is a standard for beauty or that it is a real trait. And often it may be an evolutionary thing. I do no think it is a good analogy to God.
 
Howard Is

Howard Is

Lucky Mud
Phaedrus said:
I don't have to use poetic language to know the soul is not real. There's simply no evidence for its existence.
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Do you feel an aversion to soul music ?
Soul food ?

Do you believe there is only one possible meaning to any word...and worse, that you know what the correct meaning is ?
 
blü 2

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
PruePhillip said:
It's an unfair game.
In America you can't bring religion into the classroom.
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Not quite. You can't bring religion into the classroom of a state school, the public education system. That is, you can't proselytize at the government's expense. But in non-state schools, and in Sunday schools, and at home, and so on, you can proselytize to your heart's content.
PruePhillip said:
But you can bring secularism into that class - and all its nihilist, sexual, drug addled baggage. Secularism declares it is not a religion - but it holds we came from nothing, for no reason whatsoever, and "no hell below us and above us only sky." So secularism can be taught, but "religion" can't.
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So you favor a theocracy? Compulsory Rainbow Serpent observances before and during class?

That's to say, secularism is a single notion. Religion is ten or twenty thousand notions ─ who gets to choose which one?
 
Howard Is

Howard Is

Lucky Mud
Howard Is said:
Similarly, you can’t see someone’s soul - their essential qualities - but you can see what it moves.

I do not have a belief in an entity called the soul.
I qualified the word in my post as essential qualities, meaning the personal qualities that characterise an individual.
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But when someone has a hammer in their hand, everything looks like a nail....

Phaedrus said:
That's what you think.
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That’s right.
 
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Evangelicalhumanist

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
sojourner said:
Show me the formula. What does hunger weigh? What are it’s dimensions? What color is it? Is it liquid or gaseous? What are its energetic properties? Does it produce lumens or amperage or temperature? Show me hunger. Put it out there in front of me. If you can’t do it, it doesn’t exist. No such thing. It’s a delusion that’s all in your head, and I’m. Not buying it. There are no hungry children in Africa.
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You'll be surprised to learn that I'm not all that impressed with what you will or won't buy. I put it to you that you have felt hunger yourself -- which made it quite real to you at the time -- and in order to make this rather lame point, you're going to pretend it never happened. That's purest twaddle.
 
Polymath257

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Howard Is said:
I do not have a belief in an entity called the soul.
I qualified the word in my post as essential qualities, meaning the personal qualities that characterise an individual.

I am claiming my right to use poetic language.

Just because you’re an atheist doesn’t mean you have to have antiseptically logical language.

Poetry isn’t logical or scientific.
Should we discourage all poetry for fear of religion ?
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Not at all. But we should also acknowleldge that poetry is very poor at giving truths, which require precision of language
 
Polymath257

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
sojourner said:
Not necessarily. Sometimes they upset us. And let’s not conflate truth with fact. For example, we know that George Washington chopping down a cherry tree isn’t factual. But it does convey the truth of his honesty.
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But the story about chopping down is false.

No, but that’s the concept you know. Having a concept for something and believing are two different things.
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That is the concept others have proposed for 'God'. And, of course, having a concept and believing in the reality of the concept are two different things. I have the concept of a unicorn. That doesn't mean I believe unicorns exist.

Doesn’t have to be “awe-inspiring.” It can be as simple as tying your child’s shoes. Myths bring meaning. One of the fundamental human questions is existential: why are we here? Myth creates space and language for us to wrestle with that question. What does our existence mean to us? Surely there’s something more than merely converting
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And perhaps we should just realize there may not be an answer that is 'deep'. I am here because my parents had sex. It really is that simple.

Again, I fail to see how myth-making has any bearing on the issue. To lie to ourselves with falsehoods (myths) seems to be the *worst* way to answer important questions.
 
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