Donald Trump is digging his own grave

Ouroboros · Oct 12, 2019

Jollybear said:
How are we the voters harmed by knowing the potential corruption of a political candidate? Further, we can STILL vote for that candidate despite knowing the potential corruption.

So, no, we are not harmed in trump asking ukraine this favor. In fact, its the opposite, we are helped.

Because there's zero oversight of a foreign instigation. They could fabricate evidence for their own purposes to influence the election. Giving them cart Blanche to do it even, with presidential approval. If we can't trust Americans to do it, why can we trust Ukrainians to do it?

Jollybear · Oct 12, 2019

Ouroboros said:
Because there's zero oversight of a foreign instigation. They could fabricate evidence for their own purposes to influence the election. Giving them cart Blanche to do it even, with presidential approval. If we can't trust Americans to do it, why can we trust Ukrainians to do it?

Well, trump in the call to ukraine said hed have rudy guilani his attorney call him.

So, in other words, united states government work together with the ukraine government to investigate.

Because either way you look at it, united states cant just investigate, its there country. So, we work wirh them to investigate it.

And if you dont trust the investigation, ok, well some of us dont trust the former investigation, lol.

So, good grief, you got to trust something. Nothing is without some faith.

Shad · Oct 12, 2019

Ouroboros said:
Because there's zero oversight of a foreign instigation. They could fabricate evidence for their own purposes to influence the election. Giving them cart Blanche to do it even, with presidential approval. If we can't trust Americans to do it, why can we trust Ukrainians to do it?

For Americas to investigate action done or claimed to have been done in Ukraine requires Ukraine to be involved anyways. US does not have power in Ukraine equal to government in Ukraine. The FBI can not start kicking down doors in Ukraine.

The US can vet whatever comes from Ukraine including the accused's defense team.

Ouroboros · Oct 12, 2019

Jollybear said:
Well, trump in the call to ukraine said hed have rudy guilani his attorney call him.

So, in other words, united states government work together with the ukraine government to investigate.

The problem though is that Rudy doesn't have a position in the government. He's not in the cabinet and his official position is that he's Trump's personal lawyer. That actually makes it worse because it points to a personal interest by Trump, not a state interest.

Because either way you look at it, united states cant just investigate, its there country. So, we work wirh them to investigate it.

Absolutely, but that's why we have Department of Justice and State Department to avoid any conflict of interest like this case. In many other cases, it wouldn't have been such an issue. If Trump wanted to investigate someone else, we all probably would have shrugged it off, but now he's investigating another candidate. He would personally gain from getting rid of Biden, so it's a conflict of interest, and he should in such situation not be part of it.

And if you dont trust the investigation, ok, well some of us dont trust the former investigation, lol.

Well, that's the funny thing here. When Trump and his campaign was under investigation by FBI (an American institution, not foreign), it was quite popular in some media to call it corrupt and illegal. So how come it was then but not now? How come it's so fishy if we follow procedure, but it's all okay when we step outside of it?

So, good grief, you got to trust something. Nothing is without some faith.

If we don't trust the American institution and the constitution (impeachment is part of it as well as emolument), then we're not really patriots. What do we defend and what country are we rooting for if we claim America's institution are all corrupt and we rather have another country to take over?

The interesting thing here is that until earlier this year, we had an ambassador in Ukraine, working with them to get rid of corruption. For some reason it looks like Giuliani got Trump to get rid of her... and Giuliani's relationship with the two that just got arrested... it's heating up.

Ouroboros · Oct 12, 2019

Shad said:
For Americas to investigate action done or claimed to have been done in Ukraine requires Ukraine to be involved anyways. US does not have power in Ukraine equal to government in Ukraine. The FBI can not start kicking down doors in Ukraine.

The US can vet whatever comes from Ukraine including the accused's defense team.

Very true, but to avoid conflict of interest, treaty or no treaty, is to work through official channels and follow proper procedures. We have a state department and department of justice and FBI and ... for those reasons to shield and insulate the president from many things, and one thing is conflict of interest. If DoJ did the investigation and worked together with Ukraine, I doubt we'd be here having this conversation. At least not by me.

To me, the issue isn't so much about "what" (investigating Biden), but rather "how" (president personally handling it with a foreign entity), and "why" (president's personal gain). If he did it to get rid of the opposition and he choose to bypass legal procedures, then it doesn't matter what it was he wanted to investigate. You don't get rid of corruption by introducing more corruption.

But in the end, I suspect all this will fall on Giuliani, and Trump will get out of it with just a few bruises but nothing else. Giuliani is most likely in much worse trouble right now.

Prometheus85 · Oct 12, 2019

Jollybear said:
Well, trump in the call to ukraine said hed have rudy guilani his attorney call him.

So, in other words, united states government work together with the ukraine government to investigate.

Because either way you look at it, united states cant just investigate, its there country. So, we work wirh them to investigate it.

And if you dont trust the investigation, ok, well some of us dont trust the former investigation, lol.

So, good grief, you got to trust something. Nothing is without some faith.

you mean the same Rudy guliani that’s under criminal investigation for his deals in Ukraine? And second Rudy has no position in the government or the trump administration. Giuliani, had been attempting to put Trump's personal interests before that of the United States. If Trump were really, legitimately focused on rooting out corruption in Ukraine....

He would Stop cutting State Department anti-corruption funding.

There is an entire State Department bureau—the Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement (INL)—focused on law enforcement efforts overseas, including investigating corruption. Strangely, while Trump has a new-found interest in fighting “corruption”—at least that associated with his political rivals—his administration has requested less money for INL, not more

Alert the Ukraine ambassador, and let him deal with it

If Trump and Pompeo really wanted to police corruption in Ukraine, they would have first alerted the acting U.S. ambassador there to specific concerns, like Ukrainian executives laundering money or a Ukrainian official misusing his or her position (such as the former prosecutor general mentioned in Trump’s phone call).

Request cooperation (officially)

If there were an actual U.S. government investigation into alleged criminal activity by Americans in Ukraine, or foreigners suspected of violating U.S. laws, a request for cooperation could have been made through a formal process that’s run by DOJ’s Office of International Affairs.

sooda · Oct 12, 2019

Evangelicals sure have strange ideas.

The Trumpthumpers are more upset by Fake Don's vulgar tongue than they are by his monumental moral depravity:

Report: Evangelicals Concerned About Trump's Profanity

Jose Fly · Oct 12, 2019

sooda said:
Evangelicals sure have strange ideas.

The Trumpthumpers are more upset by Fake Don's vulgar tongue than they are by his monumental moral depravity:

Report: Evangelicals Concerned About Trump's Profanity

Message to evangelicals: Impeachment is about Donald Trump. It's not an attack on you.

A reminder to my evangelical fellow citizens: The impeachment process is not targeting you.

Part of the problem with the Trump phenomenon is the overly large degree to which his supporters identify with him and find validation in his ascent to the most powerful political position in the world.

This has induced a blind loyalty famously captured in the president's own words when he conjectured that he could shoot someone on a busy New York street and not lose voters. When The Washington Post asked the president of Liberty University whether there is anything that would endanger his and other evangelical leaders' support for Trump, Jerry Falwell Jr. gave an answer as revealing as it was brief: "No."

Polling data backs up Falwell’s point: 80% of white evangelicals 45 and older say they view Trump favorably, about double the approval rating of the aggregate public.

I thought Jesus was the only one who merited such devotion from Christians.

Like I said before, evangelicals' unwavering support for Trump puts me in mind of the story of Satan offering Jesus political power in exchange for his loyalty. Jesus refused, but it seems today's evangelicals do not share Jesus' priorities.

Ouroboros · Oct 12, 2019

Apparently, Trump is not only considering impeachment being illegal but that it should end. Something he expressed at a rally recently. Well, it's in the Constitution, and he made an oath to uphold it, so tough luck.

Jollybear · Oct 12, 2019

Prometheus85 said:
Here’s the thing, I said to you if trump cared so much about Ukraine corruption why didn’t he go after Ukraine corruption in 2018, 2017, 2016? You said because he didn’t trust to former Ukraine president. Well his administration gave 200 million in military aid to the former president. And you have yet gave a adequate response for that falsehood.

You may think its not adequate, but i think it is.

also in the cnn article I gave you it says this about the purpose for the funds.

The funds are intended to enhance Ukraine's command and control, situational awareness systems, secure communications, military mobility, night vision and military medical treatment, a US defense official told CNN.

I quoted another thing cnn said too.

"The Trump administration decided that Ukraine's passage of a new national security law, signed by Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko on July 5, met the requirements enshrined in the US legislation, thereby allowing the Pentagon to release the funds."

also those articles you gave me are unrelated to the cnn article that I gave you.

Thats true, correct. But, it still serves to show trumps reasons.

In any case form reading the first article. Now an idiot might read this and think, "See, Zelensky is acknowledging the seriousness of this investigation." But Zelensky is playing politics, Trump has a history of responding well to leaders who stroke his ego, and ending agreements and meetings with leaders who don't. And at this point Ukraine is desperately in need of additional lethal assistance (which Zelensky may, but probably didn't, know was being held up at the request of Trump a week before this call and had been seeking a WH meeting with the two leaders, why not suck up a little bit?

Ok, so basically zelinsky is lying according to you? I disagree, i think hes telling the truth.

In the second article which you cherry-picked. Has this to say about trumps claim of withholding funds because of corruption.

WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump has said he withheld nearly $400 million in military aid from Ukraine because of corruption in the country, but recently released Pentagon documents undercut that explanation and add fuel to the whistleblower complaint that has launched an impeachment inquiry in Congress.

Democrats in the House on Friday demanded answers on what prompted the Trump administration to place a hold on the military aid, which was needed to fight Russia-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine, even as the president was pressing the Ukrainian government to investigate the son of former Vice President Joe Biden.

The Pentagon documents reflect its own assessment that Ukraine was making progress on anti-corruption efforts.

Trump denies putting a hold on the aid because of 2020 politics, and initially said this week he had concerns about corruption in Ukraine, a U.S. priority for years.

However, the Pentagon in May officially certified that it had seen enough anti-corruption progress to justify releasing the congressionally authorized aid, according to documents provided to The Associated Press.

Ok......and, trump said his reason was twofold. Pressure other countries to give more aid and to see if ukraine will fight corruption.

You dont trust thats his motive. Ok, fine.

Jollybear · Oct 12, 2019

Callisto said:
Apparently, you don't understand if you genuinely don't think the transcript shows abuse of power.

ORLY? He's under investigation for a myriad of offenses, including Ukraine and has a multitude of litigation waiting upon his removal from office. It's too bad you folks insist on swimming up and down de'nial.

Again, quid pro quo. The time to have legitimately ask for favors was when the aid was being planned abdabdaagreed upon. NOT, I repeat, NOT after the terms had been decided upon that finalized what aid, if any, would be extended. No, he didn't take a threatening tone, one isn't needed to be threatening. Look up "veiled threat".

Irrelevant. Opining on other countries' efforts is neither here or there. The point remains, the aid had already been determined & approved. Period. Trump's only purpose was to officially convey that aid. Commenting on other countries was superfluous and has no bearing on what the US had agreed to do. He's not in trouble for commenting on other countries, he's in trouble for attempting to hold back already approved aid to get something he wanted.

Deflection.

Try again.

Uhm, no. Firstly, if this was such a concern, then why wasn't it addressed before, at anytime prior to aid bring approved. Secondly, lets see if you have an answer for this because Trump did not when pointedly asked: if he is concerned about "corruption", what else did he ask Ukraine to investigate. Funny how he's concerned about rampant corruption yet the only thing he focused on are the Bidens and couldn't call up one other thing when called on it.

Why is it when trump asks a favor from ukraine with no linkage to the aid to that favor its a bad thing, but when biden commands ukraine to fire a prosecuter with aid linked directly to that command, its all of a sudden good?

Also, why is it when trump asks to find out if biden did wrong, thats bad, but when hillery does it, its ok?

Ukrainian efforts to sabotage Trump backfire

Ouroboros · Oct 12, 2019

Jollybear said:
Ukrainian efforts to sabotage Trump backfire

Interesting. So Ukraine was corrupt and trying to undermine our democracy and election in the past. Should we trust them now though?

Jollybear · Oct 13, 2019

Ouroboros said:
Interesting. So Ukraine was corrupt and trying to undermine our democracy and election in the past. Should we trust them now though?

Should we trust them now?

Well, a new ukraine president was elected, supposidly put into office to fight corruption.

Will he? Time will tell. But zelinsky is on record saying "choose your own president". Lol.

But, the main point that i was trying to make is that its the democrate party that cannot be trusted because they are having this double standard. When it comes to trump, they accuse and fight him, but when it comes to themselves doing what they accuse, its apparently ok.

sooda · Oct 13, 2019

Jollybear said:
Well, trump in the call to ukraine said hed have rudy guilani his attorney call him.

So, in other words, united states government work together with the ukraine government to investigate.

Because either way you look at it, united states cant just investigate, its there country. So, we work wirh them to investigate it.

And if you dont trust the investigation, ok, well some of us dont trust the former investigation, lol.

So, good grief, you got to trust something. Nothing is without some faith.

In addition to the two men that Giuliani was working with, Lev and Igor (the money launderers of Mara Lago with the fake Ukrainian gas company) he also has to worry about Rick Perry and Pompeo and Sondland (maybe even Barr?) because they could turn on him and sing too. .

What Giuliani was doing was part of a criminal conspiracy to defraud Ukraine

Prometheus85 · Oct 13, 2019

Jollybear said:
You may think its not adequate, but i think it is.

I quoted another thing cnn said too.

"The Trump administration decided that Ukraine's passage of a new national security law, signed by Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko on July 5, met the requirements enshrined in the US legislation, thereby allowing the Pentagon to release the funds."

Thats true, correct. But, it still serves to show trumps reasons.

Ok, so basically zelinsky is lying according to you? I disagree, i think hes telling the truth.

Ok......and, trump said his reason was twofold. Pressure other countries to give more aid and to see if ukraine will fight corruption.

You dont trust thats his motive. Ok, fine.

no, no, no, no. Your major claim is trump was withholding aid from you Ukraine because of corruption, but yet every article you send me contradicts that claim. The pentagon says it saw enough anti corruption progress in Ukraine to justify releasing the money but trump never did. So now you say it’s two fold?? He was withholding the money because of corruption and because he wanted to Pressure other European countries to give more.

Trump has changed his story about why he personally withheld the military support at least twice. Trump told reporters that his decision was due to concerns about corruption in (remember you said it was the former government trump didn’t trust which was false and you have yet to correct yourself) Zelensky’s new government. But asked a similar question on Tuesday, Trump’s talking point suddenly changed: now he said he’d withheld the aid out of frustration that European countries were not doing enough to support Ukraine themselves.

My “favorite” part of this is that the two rationales contradict one another.

First excuse: Why would anyone want to give money to a corrupt government

Second excuse: I was trying to get other countries to do their share in giving money to the corrupt government.

And no, Zelensky is not lying. He’s playing politics. He already told the press that he doesn’t want to interfere in US domestic politics. Trump is the one that’s lying. Everyone on this thread has broken down everything that is bull about trump statements regarding withholding aid. It cannot be stressed more that this is the POTUS seeking information from a foreign nation to damage a likely election competitor. This would be a campaign finance violation at a minimum, a breach of public trust, and definitely a violation of the oath of office.

Prometheus85 · Oct 13, 2019

Jollybear said:
Why is it when trump asks a favor from ukraine with no linkage to the aid to that favor its a bad thing, but when biden commands ukraine to fire a prosecuter with aid linked directly to that command, its all of a sudden good?

Also, why is it when trump asks to find out if biden did wrong, thats bad, but when hillery does it, its ok?

Ukrainian efforts to sabotage Trump backfire

Fact-checking Charlie Kirk on Democrats, Ukraine

Ouroboros · Oct 13, 2019

Jollybear said:
Should we trust them now?

Well, a new ukraine president was elected, supposidly put into office to fight corruption.

Will he? Time will tell. But zelinsky is on record saying "choose your own president". Lol.

The article was about how Ukraine was involved in influencing our election in 2016, you saw that, right? So having them involved in influence our election in 2020 should be out of the question.

But, the main point that i was trying to make is that its the democrate party that cannot be trusted because they are having this double standard. When it comes to trump, they accuse and fight him, but when it comes to themselves doing what they accuse, its apparently ok.

They're all corrupt, and there needs to be standards, but the more we push the envelope and go closer to the edge, the worse it's going to get. If it was wrong what dems did in the past and Trump does it the same things, then why even bother, they're all corrupt, Trump included, and we'll never see the end of it.

What's really interesting in all this is that Giuliani seems to be the one who's egging Trump on. Giuliani seems to be the one who pushed Trump to get rid of the ambassador in Ukraine (she was working there to get rid of corruption already, why did Giuliani want her gone?) and he's the one pushing Trump to ask Ukraine president for favors, and Giuliani knows better. So I wonder if he 1) has gone of the rockers and doesn't know 5 from green apples? 2) There's a conspiracy going on as the Dems seem to believe? Or 3) He's Judas, a Brutus, who's actually working for the "Deep State" and is doing all this to ultimately ensnare and ruin Trump.

Callisto · Oct 13, 2019

Jollybear said:
Why is it when trump asks a favor from ukraine with no linkage to the aid to that favor its a bad thing, but when biden commands ukraine to fire a prosecuter with aid linked directly to that command, its all of a sudden good?

Also, why is it when trump asks to find out if biden did wrong, thats bad, but when hillery does it, its ok?

Ukrainian efforts to sabotage Trump backfire

So once again you resort to what-aboutism and conspiracy theories instead of addressing the real crimes of and evidence against Trump.

The GOP and the rest of Congress has had ample time to have brought charges against Biden had any been warranted. There are protocol and agencies in place to investigate plus at times, the GOP held both the House and Senate. They didn't because they couldn't.

Biden was one voice among others - the US and countries, including Ukrainians, called for Shokin's removal, a man known to be corrupt coming into the position.

Address the mountain of evidence against Trump, stop trying to deflect and distract. It doesn't work.

Jollybear · Oct 13, 2019

Prometheus85 said:
no, no, no, no.

Yes, yes, yes, yes

Your major claim is trump was withholding aid from you Ukraine because of corruption, but yet every article you send me contradicts that claim. The pentagon says it saw enough anti corruption progress in Ukraine to justify releasing the money but trump never did. So now you say it’s two fold?? He was withholding the money because of corruption and because he wanted to Pressure other European countries to give more.

Correct.

Trump has changed his story about why he personally withheld the military support at least twice.

No, its not a change, its a twofold supplemental reasons.

Trump told reporters that his decision was due to concerns about corruption in (remember you said it was the former government trump didn’t trust which was false and you have yet to correct yourself) Zelensky’s new government.

Trump knew ukraine was corrupt. Why did he give aid still? It certainly wasnt because he believed they wer not corrupt, because he knew they were. He gave it due to them being an ally and due to working with them. In otherwords, conditions went with that aid.

But asked a similar question on Tuesday, Trump’s talking point suddenly changed: now he said he’d withheld the aid out of frustration that European countries were not doing enough to support Ukraine themselves.

And thats ALSO true. In FACT that talking point was brought up in the very conversation with zelinsky.

My “favorite” part of this is that the two rationales contradict one another.

Theres a difference between a true contradiction and what you WANT to be a contradiction.

First excuse: Why would anyone want to give money to a corrupt government

Second excuse: I was trying to get other countries to do their share in giving money to the corrupt government.

Again, theres conditions to the aid to fight corruption and not missuse the aid. Thats also common sense by the way. I hope you see that.

And no, Zelensky is not lying. He’s playing politics. He already told the press that he doesn’t want to interfere in US domestic politics. Trump is the one that’s lying. Everyone on this thread has broken down everything that is bull about trump statements regarding withholding aid. It cannot be stressed more that this is the POTUS seeking information from a foreign nation to damage a likely election competitor. This would be a campaign finance violation at a minimum, a breach of public trust, and definitely a violation of the oath of office.

So zelenski is not lying then when he said trump did not push him or blackmail him

Ok, good, so, whats the problem then?

Subduction Zone · Oct 13, 2019

Jollybear said:
Yes, yes, yes, yes

Correct.

No, its not a change, its a twofold supplemental reasons.

Trump knew ukraine was corrupt. Why did he give aid still? It certainly wasnt because he believed they wer not corrupt, because he knew they were. He gave it due to them being an ally and due to working with them. In otherwords, conditions went with that aid.

And thats ALSO true. In FACT that talking point was brought up in the very conversation with zelinsky.

Theres a difference between a true contradiction and what you WANT to be a contradiction.

Again, theres conditions to the aid to fight corruption and not missuse the aid. Thats also common sense by the way. I hope you see that.

So zelenski is not lying then when he said trump did not push him or blackmail him

Ok, good, so, whats the problem then?

Come on in, de water's fine.

Donald Trump is digging his own grave

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