What can happen when you believe nonsense...

amorphous_constellation · Oct 3, 2019

Evangelicalhumanist said:
I often wish the human species wasn't quite so prone to believing irrational things. It's not always a good thing...

Shadow Wolf said:
Another fine example of freedom of religion being allowed too much freedom, so much that we say "oh well, it's religion," while under any other circumstance we call it criminal or mentally ill behavior.

Very, very broad statements are being made here, I think. I'd like to point out that any freedom does not stretch on forever without it coming into conflict with rationality. I think that much crime could be eliminated at the cost of freedom, but the problem is clearly that great freedoms do not correlate absolutely with crime. If they did, we'd be living in quite a different world.

For example, a village might have someone that's pretty weird with odd habits and beliefs, but that person never would hurt anyone. Well, they are quite freely living away, and we might determine they seem pretty irrational. Well society can't just come out and jail that person, or medicate them, or institutionalize them against their will. That's because our sense of ethical freedom trumps our sense of rational uniformity, because great freedom doesn't always mean great crime.

Is it rational evangelicalhumanist, to lock up all those whom rationality deems as mentally ill? Didn't they have more broad criteria to institutionalize people before the 60's, for example? That's a pretty slippery slope, I'd guess. And to add further complexity to things, I'd argue that the human race hasn't once nailed down what standard rationality even is. So unless you have an actual argument to post, I'm not satisfied that you're proving anything

Shadow Wolf · Oct 3, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
Very, very broad statements are being made here, I think. I'd like to point out that any freedom does not stretch on forever without it coming into conflict with rationality.

It's stretched pretty far when it comes to religion.

ajay0 · Oct 4, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
Religion is known for getting a free pass on behaviors that are otherwise unacceptable, if not illegal.

This goes for religious superstitions and also western philosophies like nihilism, existentialism that states that all values or virtues are abstractly contrived and have no relevance of their own.

Such an absurd conclusion, mainly due to the recent origin of western civilization, have sowed the seeds of the second world war and the holocaust which revealed unprecedented human cruelty and suffering.

“If we present a man with a concept of man which is not true, we may well corrupt him. When we present man as an automaton of reflexes, as a mind-machine, as a bundle of instincts, as a pawn of drives and reactions, as a mere product of instinct, heredity and environment, we feed the nihilism to which modern man is, in any case, prone.
I became acquainted with the last stage of that corruption in my second concentration camp, Auschwitz. The gas chambers of Auschwitz were the ultimate consequence of the theory that man is nothing but the product of heredity and environment; or as the Nazi liked to say, ‘of Blood and Soil.’ I am absolutely convinced that the gas chambers of Auschwitz, Treblinka, and Maidanek were ultimately prepared not in some Ministry or other in Berlin, but rather at the desks and lecture halls of nihilistic scientists and philosophers.”- Viktor Frankl

In eastern philosophy on the other hand, moral values and virtues are considered to be valuable in expansion of consciousness (and destruction of karma) alongside meditation, awareness or total love and instrumental in attainment of enlightenment or Buddhahood.

Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. - Buddha AN 10.1

Western philosophy and psychology, which is of recent origin, has not yet touched upon the phenomenon of enlightenment or Buddhahood , and this is why nihilism and other lopsided philosophies like existentialism were and are prominent in the west leading to an erroneous thought process and corresponding actions, considering all moral values to be mere abstractions.

firedragon · Oct 4, 2019

Evangelicalhumanist said:
A chap in Arizona, Pablo Martinez, believed that his six-year-old son was possessed by a demon, because the boy exploded in a "fit of unnatural rage" at bath time. And so, of course, he poured scalding water down the boy's (presumably unwilling) throat, then held his head under water for 5-10 minutes. Well, naturally, the boy died -- presumably taking the "demon" with him.

I often wish the human species wasn't quite so prone to believing irrational things. It's not always a good thing...

Well, there was a man who thought his wifes head was a ball and kicked it. So this "nonsense" could be a psychological disfunction.

Shadow Wolf · Oct 4, 2019

ajay0 said:
This goes for religious superstitions and also western philosophies like nihilism, existentialism that states that all values or virtues are abstractly contrived and have no relevance of their own.

When's the last time an existentialist let their child suffer from an easily treatable illness because they did some ritual instead of taking their child to a doctor? When have nihilists stood in front of a funeral home to protest a funeral that is currently going on? When have Stoics ever been allowed to refuse to hire someone, work with them, serve them, or rent to them? And, really, how many people beyond a handful of philosophy students are nihilists and existentialists? Sophists? Stoics? Hegelian? Pretty much any other philosophy that most other people haven't heard of?
Those things are illegal, under any other condition or circumstance, but when it's "religion" we are expected to tolerate it and tolerate that it must exist. If you do it because of religion, it's "tolerated and legally ok" that you act completely and entirely in an unacceptable manner. If you do it because of religion, it's "tolerated and legally ok" to discriminate against people. If you do it because of religion, it's "tolerated and legally ok" to let your children needlessly suffer and die.
And even when the beliefs are benign, those probably have to go as well because it encourages beliefs that are the focus of the OP, in that otherwise sane and rational people believe in ghosts so when someone who isn't necessarily sane or rational believes in ghosts it's suddenly not perceived in an unusual manner as it should be. And it has real and devastating consequences (for others than the practitioner/believer) across the board when it comes to paranormal and superstitious beliefs as a whole. From astrology and tarot cards, seances and psychic detectives, faith healing and demonic possession, real people suffer because those things are believed, real con artists prey upon those who are desperate and believe in those things, and people make real decisions that on occasion does lead to dire consequences for others.

amorphous_constellation · Oct 4, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
When have Stoics ever been allowed to refuse to hire someone, work with them, serve them, or rent to them? And, really, how many people beyond a handful of philosophy students are nihilists and existentialists? Sophists? Stoics? Hegelian? Pretty much any other philosophy that most other people haven't heard of?

Well, how about pure capitalists if they have no religion to restrain their rationality and efficiency. I'd know, because I've been where people are fired and tossed out like hamburger wrappers, on a daily basis. But everything has to run smoother and smoother, cold and rational money comes like a flood to drown the weak

Shadow Wolf said:
And even when the beliefs are benign, those probably have to go as well because it encourages beliefs that are the focus of the OP

Very slippery slope there. So where does this stone cold rationality eventually lead us?

Shadow Wolf said:
From astrology and tarot cards, seances and psychic detectives, faith healing and demonic possession, real people suffer because those things are believed, real con artists prey upon those who are desperate and believe in those things, and people make real decisions that on occasion does lead to dire consequences for others.

The mystery ain't desperate for you. I always tell people that I don't care about proving the spirit world to them. If it wants them, it'll find them, and they might not even want it. Real spirituality is about being humbled. In encountering it, I feel that the individual will get down from their high horse

Shadow Wolf · Oct 4, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
So where does this stone cold rationality eventually lead us?

With these ancient beliefs that overall do more harm than good in the past where they belong. This stuff was thought of when we didn't know what a bacteria or virus is, before we knew a thing about mental illness, and when we looked to the stars to guide us because it was how we tracked the seasons (which included planting and harvesting).

ideogenous_mover said:
Real spirituality is about being humbled, in encountering it, I feel that the individual will get down from their high horse

So pointing out real consequences--consequences that sometimes does include needless suffering and death of others--is to be on a high horse? You are the one attempting to define what "real spirituality" is. "Real spirituality" doesn't have to include belief in ghosts and possession, divination and rituals.

amorphous_constellation · Oct 4, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
With these ancient beliefs that overall do more harm than good in the past where they belong. This stuff was thought of when we didn't know what a bacteria or virus is, before we knew a thing about mental illness, and when we looked to the stars to guide us because it was how we tracked the seasons (which included planting and harvesting).

And yet, every other daily article on my homepage talks about how our modern culture is skewed and we have to reach back to the wisdom of the ancients. It's all about how something is missing from our high stress, nihilistic, and materialistic lives. Every single day someone is writing something nostalgic about archaic times through the lens of their needling modern anxiety. It's well known this ship doesn't know where it's going, otherwise no one would write about any of that.

Shadow Wolf said:
So pointing out real consequences--consequences that sometimes does include needless suffering and death of others--is to be on a high horse? You are the one attempting to define what "real spirituality" is. "Real spirituality" doesn't have to include belief in ghosts and possession, divination and rituals.

Wasn't talking about you, I was indicating the spiritual con artists you spoke of

Shadow Wolf · Oct 4, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
And yet, every other list of daily articles on my homepage talks about how our modern culture is skewed and we have to reach back to the widsom of the ancients.

The wisdom of the ancients? When crocodile dung was used a contraception, thunder and lightning the anger of god, human sacrifice to keep god happy, and when scratches and insect bites were far more deadly? Not that they were "all dumb," but many of their discoveries and knowledges that were good and worked we still use today, like standards in weights and measurements, writing, code of law, algebra, and the parts of a astrology that work and became astronomy. Casting bones and shells, searching for omens and signs, and spiritual/demonic possession, we've learned better, we really have, but some people still cling onto these beliefs, sometimes to the detriment of others (and where it becomes problematic that people believe these things).

We Never Know · Oct 4, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
The wisdom of the ancients? When crocodile dung was used a contraception, thunder and lightning the anger of god, human sacrifice to keep god happy, and when scratches and insect bites were far more deadly? Not that they were "all dumb," but many of their discoveries and knowledges that were good and worked we still use today, like standards in weights and measurements, writing, code of law, algebra, and the parts of a astrology that work and became astronomy. Casting bones and shells, searching for omens and signs, and spiritual/demonic possession, we've learned better, we really have, but some people still cling onto these beliefs, sometimes to the detriment of others (and where it becomes problematic that people believe these things).

And yet all that craziness brought us forth and opened up doors for exploration to move ahead. Those crazy ancients are why you are here.

amorphous_constellation · Oct 4, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
Casting bones and shells, searching for omens and signs, and spiritual/demonic possession, we've learned better, we really have, but some people still cling onto these beliefs, sometimes to the detriment of others (and where it becomes problematic that people believe these things).

They aren't beliefs if they really work. Everybody can stay in town and sell their overflowing garbage at rummage sales. I see something holy in the clouds, the rivers, and trees. There is a voice there

Shadow Wolf · Oct 4, 2019

We Never Know said:
And yet all that craziness brought us forth and opened up doors for exploration to move ahead. Those crazy accents are why you are here.

Yes. It brought us to a better understanding of what works and why. Yet, for many, they don't shed what has been demonstrated to not work/exist.

Shadow Wolf · Oct 4, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
They aren't beliefs if they really work.

They don't work. And it becomes problematic when people make decisions based on such things.

amorphous_constellation · Oct 4, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
They don't work. And it becomes problematic when people make decisions based on such things.

Some take all their wisdom from the babbling and chattering tv, from the wall street numbers. What ghastly cardboard for the mind to chew on. I go to nature to see a reed blowing in the wind. I would rather take direction from the mystery of the earth, than from the forms that fill power suits

Shadow Wolf · Oct 4, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
I would rather take direction from the mystery of the earth, than from the forms that fill power suits

I'm not saying otherwise, only that personal beliefs are problematic when they have detrimental effects and consequences of others. Beliefs such as demonic possession, clearly it is far more destructive than any good that may come out of it, and we should work towards eradicating this absurd belief that has a tendency of creating victims in its wake.

ajay0 · Oct 4, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
When's the last time an existentialist let their child suffer from an easily treatable illness because they did some ritual instead of taking their child to a doctor? When have nihilists stood in front of a funeral home to protest a funeral that is currently going on? When have Stoics ever been allowed to refuse to hire someone, work with them, serve them, or rent to them? And, really, how many people beyond a handful of philosophy students are nihilists and existentialists?

The second world war was created by nihilist nazi ideologues (as stated by Victor Frankl) who saw all moral values to be mere abstractions including love, compassion, kindness and so on.

This outlook resulted in human cruelty in an unprecedented scale as shown by the grotesque experiments done on human beings, including women and children in Nazi concentration camps, including the genocides against the Jews, gypsies and Slavs.

All this shows that western philosophical systems are yet immatured, half-baked and cannot be trusted in guiding the course of human progress and enlightenment.

amorphous_constellation · Oct 4, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
Beliefs such as demonic possession, clearly it is far more destructive than any good that may come out of it, and we should work towards eradicating this absurd belief that has a tendency of creating victims in its wake.

I think maybe the evil spirit had entered the man who killed the poor kid, not the other way around. It's a pretty creepy thing to ponder, but I think evil spirits enter those who do very bad things in society, like the serial killers. It's a pretty creepy thing to think about, but like take jeffery dahmer for example. He said he did not remember offing his first victim. Now what in the world is going on with that. You tell us science. I don't even want to know, but to me that touches on it right there. He did not remember what the hell he did. That is creepier than anything, and if anything points to the possibility of an evil entity being in control, it is that. Call it insanity, call it whatever. I don't think science has it quite totally mapped

Shadow Wolf · Oct 4, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
I think maybe the evil spirit had entered the man who killed the poor kid, not the other way around. It's a pretty creepy thing to ponder, but I think evil spirits entered those who do very bad things in society, like the serial killers. It's a pretty creepy thing to think about, but like if jeffery dahmer for example. He said he did not remember offing his first victim. Now what in the world is going on with that. You tell us science. I don't even want to know, but to me that touches on it right there

No. We can't keep going on believing in such things and expect this behavior to stop. There was no demon involved, but an idiot believed there was an now his child is dead. And it doesn't help, at all, to downplay what humans are capable of doing and instead attribute it to supernatural forces. Serial killers aren't possessed by demons, they are people who had extremely difficult and traumatic childhoods, suffer with mental illness, and occasionally struggle with themselves, their urges and impulses, and their feelings regarding it all. Bundy, Manson, Dahmer, Shawcross, they weren't possessed by demons, they were ill. And it's problematic that you "don't even want to know." If you'd take some time to study serial killers and cults, you'd see how absurd your claim is because you don't know anything about them, including how they too are people like you and I, human beings who overall, largely, and mostly aren't that different from us. They love their kids, they have goals and dreams, they feel love and pain, but they are also sick. And we learned that not even lepers and seizures are demonically possessed, though it was once widely believed so. It's pretty much about the same idea and concept when it comes to serial killers.
Human beings, on our own, no supernatural entities or forces involved, are capable of extreme hatred and cruelty that is more dreadful than most people's worst nightmares, as well as great depths of compassion and love that not even the Saints expressed. That's just who we are.

Shadow Wolf · Oct 4, 2019

ajay0 said:
The second world war was created by nihilist nazi ideologues

Is that why Christian ideology was plastered all over everything? Is that were Himmler's volkish obsession came from? It's more evidence we may not be able to trust a man who says he's doing the work and will of god.

JJ50 · Oct 4, 2019

Evangelicalhumanist said:
A chap in Arizona, Pablo Martinez, believed that his six-year-old son was possessed by a demon, because the boy exploded in a "fit of unnatural rage" at bath time. And so, of course, he poured scalding water down the boy's (presumably unwilling) throat, then held his head under water for 5-10 minutes. Well, naturally, the boy died -- presumably taking the "demon" with him.

I often wish the human species wasn't quite so prone to believing irrational things. It's not always a good thing...

At one time some people believed people suffering from epilepsy were demonically possessed!

What can happen when you believe nonsense...

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