Is Fundamentalism a Religious Movement or a Psychological Disorder?

Shadow Wolf · Sep 12, 2019

Sunstone said:
Check out Chapters three and four in Altemeyer's book referenced in the OP.

It does make some good points, but it begs to ask is such stuff learned or inherent? Or could it be both?
And it also must be asked, if our diet can make us ill, then can it be that our "thought diet" can also make us ill? Cognitive behavioral therapy seeks to address self-defeating thoughts, but what of the things that lead to those thoughts?
At the very least though fundamentalism is indeed capable of inducing symptoms that resemble mental illness. Perhaps it is and we haven't properly acknowledged dogmatic ideologies as an "emotional toxin."

Shadow Wolf · Sep 12, 2019

Duke_Leto said:
People change in these respects when they become fundamentalists or cease to be; fundamentalism is more so the cause, rather than symptom, of these changes.

Traumatic experiences themselves are not an illness, however they can cause various problems with cognition and can lead to mental illness, especially with exposure to multiple traumatic events - it can be so profound that it literally changes the shape and functioning of the brain.

Hockeycowboy · Sep 13, 2019

Sunstone said:
I think psychological research along the lines of the research reported in Altemeyer's book leads to calling fundamentalism a disorder. Although it certainly -- quite certainly -- involves the ego.

How does it involve “the ego”?

Unless your beliefs are *your own* ideas, I would certainly see and agree with that!
But what if a person’s beliefs, labeled ‘fundamentalist’, are what they were taught? Their sticking fervently to their beliefs would just display the confidence, i.e., trust, they have in their teachers.

That wouldn’t be ego....would it?

Hockeycowboy · Sep 13, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
And it also must be asked, if our diet can make us ill, then can it be that our "thought diet" can also make us ill?

Very good question! I say yes, definitely. What we ‘feed’ our mind.

Subduction Zone · Sep 13, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
How does it involve “the ego”?

Unless your beliefs are *your own* ideas, I would certainly see and agree with that!
But what if a person’s beliefs, labeled ‘fundamentalist’, are what they were taught? Their sticking fervently to their beliefs would just display the confidence, i.e., trust, they have in their teachers.

That wouldn’t be ego....would it?

I think it may be fear. When an otherwise bright person cannot learn relatively simple ideas I think that fear may be the culprit.

Hockeycowboy · Sep 13, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
I think it may be fear. When an otherwise bright person cannot learn relatively simple ideas I think that fear may be the culprit.

To a point, I agree. But learning doesn’t mean accepting.

Subduction Zone · Sep 13, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
To a point, I agree. But learning doesn’t mean accepting.

Actually in this case it pretty much does. I have only seen a few dishonest, and one can tell that they are dishonest by the lies that they have to tell, scientists that do not accept evolution. The percentage is lower than the rate of the mentally ill of the population as a whole. And that makes this fact fit rather well in this thread.

blü 2 · Sep 13, 2019

Sunstone said:
Is fundamentalism a religious movement or a psychological disorder?

The four most studied fundamentalisms by scientists and scholars are the Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Hindu variations of the phenomenon. There is a wide range of informed opinion about fundamentalism, but most people find fundamentalism remarkably similar regardless of which religion it is associated with.

There is indeed some scientific support for the possibility fundamentalism is more of a psychological disorder than a religion or religious movement. For instance, see Chapters Three (page 75), Four (page 106), and related pages in Robert Altemeyer's introduction to authoritarianism, which can be found here (pdf).

As for myself, I believe calling fundamentalism a "religion" might be like calling Bipolar Mood Disorder a "philosophy". The evidence seems headed in that direction.

EDIT: As I remarked to Dave in a post in this thread: It seems likely to me that fundamentalism might be characterized as a religious movement piggybacking on a psychological disorder.

Your thoughts?*

As one speaking Fundamentalist might say, Fundamentalism is doubleplusungood.

Shadow Wolf · Sep 13, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
That wouldn’t be ego....would it?

It is a hefty deal of the ego because such dogmatic ideologies, though often based on a collective goal, are very heavily based when "I" and what "I" want. "My" group is superior, "my" beliefs are the only correct ones, and "I" have the only acceptable ways. Even the PDF linked to in the OP suggests it's not just ego, but a massively inflated ego with a higher sense of integrity for such people than the others.

sun rise · Sep 13, 2019

Sunstone said:
Is fundamentalism a religious movement or a psychological disorder?
...
Read Chapters three and four of Altemeyer's book referenced in the OP

The book is about authoritarianism and was published in 2006. Given the lack of reproducibility in psychological research, I'm hesitant to accept the author's writing as conclusive.

That said or rather written, I find your question to be too, dare I write it, black/white.

I fast skimmed some of the book and noted this:
The first thing you need to know about religious fundamentalists, in case you haven’t inferred it already, is that they usually score very highly on the RWA scale. 10, 11 A solid majority of them are authoritarian followers.

A "solid majority" is far from the black/white OP. There are those on RF, traditional Jews who adhere strictly the the dictates of Judaism as they know them who I would not call authoritarian-minded and far from psychologically disordered.

And in fact, I find "psychologically disordered" to often be a value judgement not an accurate description of someone's mental health.

Terry Sampson · Sep 13, 2019

Sunstone said:
Robert Altemeyer's introduction to authoritarianism, which can be found here (pdf).

I've only just begun to read it, but even now I'm certain that this is going to be one of the most important books I'll ever read. Thanks for sharing.

Sunstone · Sep 13, 2019

sun rise said:
Given the lack of reproducibility in psychological research....

Would you please not manufacture facts about Altemeyer's research. You have no evidence for your implicit claim that his research is unsound and his results cannot be reproduced.

As for your charge that the OP is "black and white", that is certainly not my intended meaning. I do not think every last fundamentalist is mentally ill -- if that's what you're getting at.

Sunstone · Sep 13, 2019

Terry Sampson said:
I've only just begun to read it, but even now I'm certain that this is going to be one of the most important books I'll ever read. Thanks for sharing.

I do indeed hope you find the book useful. Thanks for sharing your reaction to it.

Sunstone · Sep 13, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
How does it involve “the ego”?

Unless your beliefs are *your own* ideas, I would certainly see and agree with that!
But what if a person’s beliefs, labeled ‘fundamentalist’, are what they were taught? Their sticking fervently to their beliefs would just display the confidence, i.e., trust, they have in their teachers.

That wouldn’t be ego....would it?

Great question. I would love to write to you about my understanding of the ego -- an understanding Salix and I largely share. I honestly don't have time at the moment to do so -- it's a huge subject.

Sunstone · Sep 13, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
At the very least though fundamentalism is indeed capable of inducing symptoms that resemble mental illness. Perhaps it is and we haven't properly acknowledged dogmatic ideologies as an "emotional toxin."

I think we tend to cut ideologies of all sorts tremendous slack. So many of them are more or less pathological thinking, but we make excuse after excuse for why they are just "differences of opinion". For instance, Altemeyer's experiments show that both Right Wing Authoritarians and fundamentalists are not only prone to illogical thinking but in most cases cannot be taught to think any better than they do. If that does not suggest mental illness to us, then what on earth will? In any other set of circumstances we would say "mental illness", but the moment you tell us "these are fundamentalists we're talking about" their inability to reason logically combined with their inability to learn suddenly becomes "a mere difference of opinion". Well, hogwash.

Sunstone · Sep 13, 2019

firedragon said:
How do "you" define fundamentalism?

You're an adult. Surely you know the groups and the type of thinking the word typically refers to.

JJ50 · Sep 13, 2019

Some extreme fundies I have met over the years appeared to have mental health problems.

exchemist · Sep 13, 2019

Sunstone said:
Is fundamentalism a religious movement or a psychological disorder?

The four most studied fundamentalisms by scientists and scholars are the Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Hindu variations of the phenomenon. There is a wide range of informed opinion about fundamentalism, but most people find fundamentalism remarkably similar regardless of which religion it is associated with.

There is indeed some scientific support for the possibility fundamentalism is more of a psychological disorder than a religion or religious movement. For instance, see Chapters Three (page 75), Four (page 106), and related pages in Robert Altemeyer's introduction to authoritarianism, which can be found here (pdf).

As for myself, I believe calling fundamentalism a "religion" might be like calling Bipolar Mood Disorder a "philosophy". The evidence seems headed in that direction.

EDIT: As I remarked to Dave in a post in this thread: It seems likely to me that fundamentalism might be characterized as a religious movement piggybacking on a psychological disorder.

Your thoughts?*

*Please read Chapters Three and Four in Altemeyer before responding -- unless you are very familiar with the science on this subject.

Two comments:

1) What I have not found in the book so far (I've read Chapter 3) is anything that indicates RWAs suffer from any recognised psychological disorder. The author seems to have identified a psychological type, but that is quite different. But I may have missed something - I read it quickly. Can you direct me to any passages in which he claims RWAs suffer from an actual disorder?

2) I find his definition of "right wing" tendentious. He seems to categorise anyone who strongly identifies with the existing authorities in society as right wing, even in a socialist society. I don't know why he bothers with the qualifier "right wing" at all. He seems to mean simply "authoritarian", as far as I can work out. Adding "right wing" seems to make his thesis politically slanted.

I have known a few fundies, both religious and political, and while I find their worldviews repellantly simplistic and rather at odds with reality, I would hesitate to stigmatise them as psychologically disordered.

Have you read "Lord of the Flies"? That book, written after the 2nd Word War, seems to me a good exploration of the effects of galloping groupthink on supposedly innocent people.

Marcion · Sep 13, 2019

Sunstone said:
Is fundamentalism a religious movement or a psychological disorder?

I would not call it a psychological disorder, but rather a psychological backlog or disadvantage.
If you would go back in time one or two thousand years, most people would make the same mistakes in their reasoning that fundamentalists still make.

Integrating a flexible type of honest logic and reasoning into your way of thinking is something quite new to humanity. Some folks just don't have the capability to step out of the dark ages with the way they use their brain. It's not a disorder, but just having been born with a less developed human brain.

Sunstone · Sep 13, 2019

exchemist said:
The author seems to have identified a psychological type, but that is quite different. But I may have missed something - I read it quickly. Can you direct me to any passages in which he claims RWAs suffer from an actual disorder?

You seem to be assuming that a type cannot be a disorder. Perhaps you will be able to see how a type can indeed be a disorder if you take a look at these seven traits of authoritarians (according to one researcher) and in each case ask yourself whether the trait is relatively dysfunctional compared to the corresponding trait in a "normal person".

7 Characteristics of Authoritarian People, According to Psychology — Exploring your mind

Is Fundamentalism a Religious Movement or a Psychological Disorder?

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