What’s your main reason for being a theist or an atheist?

Trailblazer said:

No, most religions did not say something different about spiritual reality. What was different was add-ons and misinterpretations but now we have the explanation, so what is the problem? Well, your problem is that you are still “undecided” between Baha’i and Christianity after about 50 years.

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Is Krishna an incarnation of Vishnu? Did he teach reincarnation? Did Jesus rise from the dead? Did he have the authority to forgive sins? Does that make him God? Early Christians thought so. Baha'is come up with explanations that make all those things believed by followers of Jesus and Krishna untrue. Why should I believe the Baha'is? With the resurrection what is the Baha'i explanation? From "Some Answered Questions":

Take a minute and read the gospel accounts. Does Abdul Baha's explanation really make sense? I'm sure you will love it, but it makes zero sense to me. Which, again, shows how followers of a religion will believe everything and anything that their prophet tells them. If the story of the resurrection didn't really happen, if Jesus didn't appear with his disciples for 40 days and then ascend into heaven, then it is all a lie. It was written as true and to be believed as true. But why try and explain it away with some "symbolic" story of a "spiritual" resurrection?

CG Didymus said:

Is Krishna an incarnation of Vishnu? Did he teach reincarnation? Did Jesus rise from the dead? Did he have the authority to forgive sins? Does that make him God? Early Christians thought so. Baha'is come up with explanations that make all those things believed by followers of Jesus and Krishna untrue. Why should I believe the Baha'is?

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You should not believe Baha'is, but if you believed that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God, then you would accept the fact that He had the Authority to unseal the books and interpret any damn thing He wanted to interpret however He damn well wanted to interpret it --- and you would accept that He would be infallibly correct in His interpretations.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

Then you would not be in such conflict anymore.
But alas CG, you do not believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation so you do not believe that.

You are stuck in the past religions as if you are living in a time warp.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Still splitting God CG

Regards Tony

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I'm the one splitting God? Or, are Baha'is trying to piece together one God from all the various gods that religions believe in? Who is God to the Hindus, the Buddhists, etc.? In any basic religious course they will give you the beliefs about God or the Gods of the different religions. Are they wrong? I don't think so. They are teaching what the believers in those different religions believe.

Baha'is ignore or try to explain away these differences. Or, ignore whole religious beliefs and focus their "oneness" of all religions only to what they call the "major" religions. To bring God into only one, Baha'i have to deny the beliefs of the people in the other religions. So try again Tony, what do the Scriptures of the different religions say about their God or Gods? Are they talking about and believing in the same being?

CG Didymus said:

Take a minute and read the gospel accounts. Does Abdul Baha's explanation really make sense? I'm sure you will love it, but it makes zero sense to me. Which, again, shows how followers of a religion will believe everything and anything that their prophet tells them. If the story of the resurrection didn't really happen, if Jesus didn't appear with his disciples for 40 days and then ascend into heaven, then it is all a lie. It was written as true and to be believed as true. But why try and explain it away with some "symbolic" story of a "spiritual" resurrection?

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Abdu'l-Baha's explanation is just one explanation. What makes sense to me is that Jesus could have appeared in a spiritual body and made Himself look physically real in order to restore the faith of the disciples. Then the gospel stories would make sense without having to throw them out. I mean since Jesus could do miracles it would be a piece of cake for Him to appear like that. That is not in-congruent with science because "spiritual things" are outside the scope of science. But to say a physical body came back to life after three days of being dead is ludicrous. People just want to believe that so they believe that.

What does not make sense to me is that the physical body of Jesus rose from the grave and walked around or that the physical body of Jesus ascended into the sky. That is utterly ludicrous and in-congruent with what is scientifically possible, as Abdu'l-Baha said.

There are reasonable interpretations of the NT other than the orthodox Christian interpretation.
Those Christians just cannot face the fact that the body of Jesus is not coming back to earth to rule a Kingdom, because that is what those Christians want. It is all in their psychology.

But how clear are these verses?

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This indicates that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.

Then in the next chapter you have these verses:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

These two verses completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world, or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to be IN this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

I figured this all out by myself, I did not get my interpretation from the Baha'i Writings.

CG Didymus said:

I'm the one splitting God? Or, are Baha'is trying to piece together one God from all the various gods that religions believe in?

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What people believe in has nothing to do with what actually exists. There are not various gods just because people believe in various gods. That is not even logical.

CG Didymus said:

So try again Tony, what do the Scriptures of the different religions say about their God or Gods? Are they talking about and believing in the same being?

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Yes, they are all talking about the one true God.

Trailblazer said:

You should not believe Baha'is, but if you believed that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God, then you would accept the fact that He had the Authority to unseal the books and interpret any damn thing He wanted to interpret however He damn well wanted to interpret it --- and you would accept that He would be infallibly correct in His interpretations.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

Then you would not be in such conflict anymore.
But alas CG, you do not believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation so you do not believe that.

You are stuck in the past religions as if you are living in a time warp.

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Who are the accepted Baha'i manifestations? I think you include Adam. Should we accept the teachings of Adam as the infallible truth? Go through all of them. Not one can you say has the infallible truth. Jesus supposedly believed in a heaven and hell and a Satan. Is that infallible truth? It is to a lot of Christians. But not to you. You don't read the Bible. You don't study the Bible. You don't care about the Bible. But you know your religion and your prophet has the infallible truth. And so did all the other believers in all the other religions. Were they correct? No, you don't believe that and Atheists here don't believe that. And they are questioning your belief in God too. And I'm questioning whether or not your religion really is the truth. I have my doubts. And how you answer is more telling then with what you answer with. Are Baha'is here bringing people together? Are they finding the things people have in common and building on those? Unfortunately, Baha'is come off as no better then the staunchest Christian Fundamentalist.

CG Didymus said:

You don't read the Bible. You don't study the Bible. You don't care about the Bible.

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That is not true.

CG Didymus said:

But you know your religion and your prophet has the infallible truth.

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That is true.

CG Didymus said:

Unfortunately, Baha'is come off as no better then the staunchest Christian Fundamentalist.

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Unfortunately, what the Baha'is do has no bearing on whether Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God or not.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

I've noticed you use the phrase "logic 101 stuff" several times on this page, but it seems you've only used it to describe bundles of unjustified claims, not anything that shows any sign of being derived by logic.

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So, for Baha'is, God's spiritual laws have never changed in any of the major religions. However, God has given temporary laws that are suited for a specific people at a specific time? Yet, that religion was the truth for that day for everybody? That is if the Baha'i concept of "progressive" revelation is true. But is it? Should Hindus have left their temporary laws of God and followed the temporary laws of Judaism? I don't understand the logic.

On top of that, anything that sounds like a "spiritual" law or a definition of who God is that doesn't agree with the Baha'i writings, those things are said to be misinterpretations or additions by men? So logically, for Baha'is, whatever they say is true is true.

Trailblazer said:

Logically speaking, how could anything humans do destroy anything God has ordained, if God is omnipotent?

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Did humans destroy what God ordained through his messenger Jesus? Isn't that kind of what Baha'is say happened to all the other religions? That people messed up the "original" message? So, logically, if the original plan brought by the manifestations was changed and distorted by the followers of that messenger, then was that what God ordained to happen?

Trailblazer said:

If most or all Baha'is did what Baha'u'llah enjoined us to do, I think the Baha'i Faith would have grown a lot more by now, like it did in the heroic age of the Faith. It does make me wonder what Baha'is are doing now, but I am in no position to judge anyone.

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In the 70's in Southern California a lot of things were looking like major change was just around the corner. The Baha'is had Bill Sears and Seals and Crofts in S. Cal. They were doing "mass teaching" and expecting tons of people to join. What happened?

In the 80's, I went to the Baha'i Peace Conference in San Francisco. Things sounded like Baha'is were going all out to promote their Peace message. What happened? Some Baha'is quoted a pilgrim note where it said that the "lessor" peace would happen by the year 2000. What happened? Is the "Cause" of God stagnating? Or, is the problems in the world today exactly what God wanted to happen? Wars and strife. Hurricanes and tsunamis. Mass shootings and the rest. Is allowing these things part of God's plan? I think Baha'is do believe it is. That God is putting the people of the world through all of this as part of his test. We rejected his messenger, so now he is going to put the world through hell. Nice guy. But even if we change and stop killing each other, will God stop causing natural disasters? Or, will he still cause earthquakes and hurricanes and other things to keep us on our toes?

Trailblazer said:

God is beyond human comprehension.

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If that was even remotely the case, there would be no god in which to believe and about which to have subjective opinions. Something being beyond human comprehension means being incapable of imagining it exists whatsoever.

I said: You don't read the Bible. You don't study the Bible. You don't care about the Bible.

Trailblazer said:

That is not true.

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Good. Then what is your opinion of the resurrection stories in the gospels? Do you agree 100% with Abdul Baha's answer and 100% disagree with early Christians believing the resurrection to be literal?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

.. to be one loving human race, loving and worshiping One God.

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All paying obeisance to one person of your choice. I have no problem with your first wish but have problems with your two requirements. IMHO, they are a hindrance to the first. So, which one is closer to your heart? A loving human race or worship of Allah, the one God (Remember! We believe in many), and acceptance of Bahaullah as a 'manifestation' of Allah (Why? What proves that?).

Trailblazer said:

What people believe in has nothing to do with what actually exists. .. That is not even logical.

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You are absolutely right, Trailblazer. The 'maid of heaven' is logical. Making false claims is surely logical if you have ignorant people who can believe in it.

CG Didymus said:

Trailblazer said: Logically speaking, how could anything humans do destroy anything God has ordained, if God is omnipotent?

Did humans destroy what God ordained through his messenger Jesus?

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Nope, Christianity is still standing and 33% of people in the world are Christians.

CG Didymus said:

Isn't that kind of what Baha'is say happened to all the other religions? That people messed up the "original" message? So, logically, if the original plan brought by the manifestations was changed and distorted by the followers of that messenger, then was that what God ordained to happen?

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It was distorted but not destroyed and the distortion was done by humans.

The omniscient God knew that would happen and that is one reason He sent Baha'u'llah to clean up the mess in the kitchen.

Trailblazer said:

You should not believe Baha'is, but if you believed that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God, then you would accept the fact that He had the Authority to unseal the books and interpret any damn thing He wanted to interpret however He damn well wanted to interpret it --- and you would accept that He would be infallibly correct in His interpretations.

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Do you realize that from the outside that looks like a major weakness of the creed?

CG Didymus said:

In the 70's in Southern California a lot of things were looking like major change was just around the corner. The Baha'is had Bill Sears and Seals and Crofts in S. Cal. They were doing "mass teaching" and expecting tons of people to join. What happened?

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I have no idea. I never became very active in the Faith after I joined owing to serious personal problems.

CG Didymus said:

In the 80's, I went to the Baha'i Peace Conference in San Francisco. Things sounded like Baha'is were going all out to promote their Peace message. What happened? Some Baha'is quoted a pilgrim note where it said that the "lessor" peace would happen by the year 2000. What happened? Is the "Cause" of God stagnating?

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Again, I have no idea. It could be for any number of reasons this has happened.

CG Didymus said:

Or, is the problems in the world today exactly what God wanted to happen? Wars and strife. Hurricanes and tsunamis. Mass shootings and the rest. Is allowing these things part of God's plan?

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Yes, I think it was part of God's plan, and we were told that these these things would happen.

“A tempest, unprecedented in its violence, unpredictable in its course, catastrophic in its immediate effects, unimaginably glorious in its ultimate consequences, is at present sweeping the face of the earth. Its driving power is remorselessly gaining in range and momentum. Its cleansing force, however much undetected, is increasing with every passing day. Humanity, gripped in the clutches of its devastating power, is smitten by the evidences of its resistless fury. It can neither perceive its origin, nor probe its significance, nor discern its outcome. Bewildered, agonized and helpless, it watches this great and mighty wind of God invading the remotest and fairest regions of the earth, rocking its foundations, deranging its equilibrium, sundering its nations, disrupting the homes of its peoples, wasting its cities, driving into exile its kings, pulling down its bulwarks, uprooting its institutions, dimming its light, and harrowing up the souls of its inhabitants.” The Promised Day Is Come, p. 3

“Dear friends! The powerful operations of this titanic upheaval are comprehensible to none except such as have recognized the claims of both Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb. Their followers know full well whence it comes, and what it will ultimately lead to. Though ignorant of how far it will reach, they clearly recognize its genesis, are aware of its direction, acknowledge its necessity, observe confidently its mysterious processes, ardently pray for the mitigation of its severity, intelligently labor to assuage its fury, and anticipate, with undimmed vision, the consummation of the fears and the hopes it must necessarily engender.” The Promised Day Is Come, p. 4

We were also told that it would come to its final consummation eventually, at God's appointed time.

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119

CG Didymus said:

I think Baha'is do believe it is. That God is putting the people of the world through all of this as part of his test. We rejected his messenger, so now he is going to put the world through hell. Nice guy. But even if we change and stop killing each other, will God stop causing natural disasters? Or, will he still cause earthquakes and hurricanes and other things to keep us on our toes?

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No, God is not putting us through this hell; humanity chose to put themselves through this hell by rejecting Baha'u'llah. God is in no way responsible for that because we have free will. Humans also cause a lot of natural disasters because they continue to go against what Baha'u'llah taught so they live the materialistic lifestyles that lead to global warming, causing floods and hurricanes, but maybe the earthquakes are God trying to shake things up.

LuisDantas said:

Do you realize that from the outside that looks like a major weakness of the creed?

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Why? What is that weakness?

Phaedrus said:

Trailblazer said: God is beyond human comprehension.
If that was even remotely the case, there would be no god in which to believe and about which to have subjective opinions. Something being beyond human comprehension means being incapable of imagining it exists whatsoever.

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Correction: The Essence of God is beyond human comprehension, but we can know some Attributes of God and the Will of God. From the latter, we are able to piece some things together and form a picture in our head.

The picture formed in your head is precisely that, just a manifestation of the imagination that exists no where except in the mind as a concept.

Trailblazer said:

Why? What is that weakness?

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Did you not just claim that surrendering to Baha'u'llah's judgement and authority is necessary in the Bahai Faith?