wandering peacefully
Which way to the woods?
Well, things such as women on their moons only have to say their prayers 25 times a day repeating some lines about how great God is is progressive no?
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What’s your main reason for being a theist or an atheist?
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
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- theism and athiesm
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am glad to hear that.
Nobody should pretend to believe in God just to believe in God...
One either believes in God or not.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The only reason to be a Baha’i is because one believes that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God. When I signed my card in 1970, it did not say “I believe in the Baha’is.” Baha’u’llah wrote somewhere that it would not matter if everyone screwed up, the Cause of God cannot be destroyed because God is Omnipotent. This of course is logic 101 stuff.
“... inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 3-4
What it essentially says is that we will never discover the truth for ourselves if we use the words and deeds of "other people" as a standard by which to understand God and His Prophets. In other words, we cannot measure truth according to what other people say, think or do.
I really have no idea what other Baha’is do but that is irrelevant. I am not in my community but I spend all my free time online doing what Baha’u’llah enjoined us to do.
Baha’u’llah said in so many words that we are to mind our own business and NOT look at the faults of others:
26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10
44: O COMPANION OF MY THRONE! Hear no evil, and see no evil, abase not thyself, neither sigh and weep. Speak no evil, that thou mayest not hear it spoken unto thee, and magnify not the faults of others that thine own faults may not appear great; and wish not the abasement of anyone, that thine own abasement be not exposed. Live then the days of thy life, that are less than a fleeting moment, with thy mind stainless, thy heart unsullied, thy thoughts pure, and thy nature sanctified, so that, free and content, thou mayest put away this mortal frame, and repair unto the mystic paradise and abide in the eternal kingdom for evermore.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 37
What the followers of ANY religion do, is no indicator as to whether that religion is a “true religion” of God. Jesus said He was ashamed of some of those who professed to believe in Him and Baha’u’llah wrote something similar, but that does not change the fact that Jesus and Baha’u’llah were Manifestations of God and it does not change their teachings or laws.
God is watching our every move... I was reminded if that because I just read it in Gleanings today.
It is good for those who do take the teachings and laws seriously. The others will just have to suffer the consequences. Detachment from to the world and things of the flesh is not easy for most people to overcome, no matter how much Baha’u’llah enjoined us to do so.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not need to witness miracles or read about them. The proof that God is real for me is the Person of Baha’u’llah, His Revelation and His Writings.
The proof that Jesus was a Manifestation of God is as follows:
“But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ.
The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear. If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life—that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: “Let the dead bury their dead;” for “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” 1
Observe: those who in appearance were physically alive, Christ considered dead; for life is the eternal life, and existence is the real existence. Wherever in the Holy Books they speak of raising the dead, the meaning is that the dead were blessed by eternal life; where it is said that the blind received sight, the signification is that he obtained the true perception; where it is said a deaf man received hearing, the meaning is that he acquired spiritual and heavenly hearing. This is ascertained from the text of the Gospel where Christ said: “These are like those of whom Isaiah said, They have eyes and see not, they have ears and hear not; and I healed them.” 2
The meaning is not that the Manifestations are unable to perform miracles, for They have all power. But for Them inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things. Consequently, whenever it is recorded in the Holy Books that such a one was blind and recovered his sight, the meaning is that he was inwardly blind, and that he obtained spiritual vision, or that he was ignorant and became wise, or that he was negligent and became heedful, or that he was worldly and became heavenly.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 101-102
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes.
So what? Baha’u’llah came to unseal the Book and God gave Him the authority to do so.
Daniel Chapter 12: 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
The early Church fathers interpreted the Bible the way they did because they could not fully understand it.
The "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.
We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means we can now understand the true meaning of the Bible. By reading the Baha’i Writings that explain the true meaning of the Bible, we can understand what the Bible means.
No, most religions did not say something different about spiritual reality. What was different was add-ons and misinterpretations but now we have the explanation, so what is the problem? Well, your problem is that you are still “undecided” between Baha’i and Christianity after about 50 years.
People and the world change over time, so teachings and laws of God have to change to go along with the times. What’s the problem? This is logic 101 stuff.
“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What are those unprogressive teachings and dealings?
Where did you get all this information?
I do not know the history of the Baha'i Faith that well. Maybe you should check this out with Adrian or Tony.
Do not try to force anybody to change their mind. If a person does not want to hear, do not tell them.
The difficulty is on an open forum, people ask, but really do not want the question answered.
It does take some time to know when not to post.
"... It is true that Bahá'u'lláh lays on every Bahá'í the duty to teach His Faith. At the same time, however, we are forbidden to proselytize, so it is important for all believers to understand the difference between teaching and proselytizing. It is a significant difference and, in some countries where teaching a religion is permitted, but proselytizing is forbidden, the distinction is made in the law of the land. Proselytizing implies bringing undue pressure to bear upon someone to change his Faith. It is also usually understood to imply the making of threats or the offering of material benefits as an inducement to conversion. In some countries mission schools or hospitals, for all the good they do, are regarded with suspicion and even aversion by the local authorities because they are considered to be material inducements to conversion and hence instruments of proselytization....."
Regards Tony
You get to choose who was portraying God like attributes and who were not.
What Baha'u'llah knows, what we do not, is how the new infusion of spirit permeates our being. Even when it does, we still have choices.
Regards Tony
Hi @JChnsc19 , thank you for sharing. I really believe we need to be true to ourselves. If becoming an atheist works best for you, then why change, especially if being a theist meant being dishonest with yourself and others.
I’m haven’t started this thread to convince anyone to change their beliefs or to belittle the views of others.
Thanks for sharing.
I've noticed you use the phrase "logic 101 stuff" several times on this page, but it seems you've only used it to describe bundles of unjustified claims, not anything that shows any sign of being derived by logic.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Bundles of unjustified claims such as?
My choice of religion was derived by logic, not by emotion.
However, God is not subject to logical analysis, given God is beyond human comprehension.
Such as this:
Baha’u’llah wrote somewhere that it would not matter if everyone screwed up, the Cause of God cannot be destroyed because God is Omnipotent. This of course is logic 101 stuff.
You can't get to "God is omnipotent" to "...therefore the cause of God cannot be destroyed" without a boatload of steps you didn't provide.
... so you ended up really just making three claims without giving any support for them:
- God is omnipotent
- the cause of God cannot be destroyed
- God's omnipotence somehow implies the indestructibility of the cause of God
This isn't about your choice of religion; it's about your arguments.
Describing something as "logic 101 stuff" implies that the reasoning in what you're saying should be obvious to the reader. When you just fire off claims without properly explaining why you believe them, the reasoning isn't obvious to the reader.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Logically speaking, if God is omnipotent the Cause of God cannot be destroyed because God has ALL Power to prevent that, and He did because the Cause of God is still standing and growing. All of the true religions of God prevailed, whereas no cults that claimed to be religions have survived.
It is said that Queen Victoria, upon reading the Tablet revealed for her by Baha'u'llah, remarked:
"If this is of God, it will endure; if not, it can do no harm." (pdc 65) (18:49)
From: 2nd Coming of Christ by David Yamartino
What I fired off to CG was not meant to be an argument and it was not a claim. It was in the context of a conversation I was having about why it does not matter what the Baha’is do; it does not matter if the Baha’is do not follow the teachings and laws of Baha’u’llah because that will not destroy the Cause of God.
Logically speaking, how could anything humans do destroy anything God has ordained, if God is omnipotent?
I had a period of 9 years where I turned away from my faith and I did have a wow of a time. I see that time very differently now and see happiness in a very different light.
I wish for you and all much happiness.
Regards Tony
To be honest with that question I see God 'Makes' us so we all have a chance to see it that way, to be one loving human race, loving and worshiping One God. You did ask.
Actually I am due, thanks you very much for the reminder, my glasses prescription needs renewal, you must read minds.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I had a period of about 9 years plus or minus where I turned away from God, but I never lost my belief in Baha'u'llah, so I was never able to drop God off at the bus depot.
Instead, I had to try to make peace with God, and that is still a work in progress.
I too see happiness now in an entirely different light.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I'm talking about the hypocrisy of those that say they believe... "Now I ask... Hypocrisy is stupid but a "stupid" reason to leave a religious group? I don't think so. If the people that say they "believe" aren't going to live up to the standards of their professed religion, why should anyone take that religion seriously? The followers don't even take it seriously.
Your answer is focused on believers not being able to attain the knowledge of God until they "cease" to look to people. But what does Baha'u'llah say about the hypocrisy of people that say they are believers? A related question is what should Baha'is be doing? I'm sure Baha'is are told some specific things that they should do to please God and being doing his will. If Baha'is don't do those things what does Baha'u'llah say about that?
Here's something supposed said by Jesus:
Matthew 5:13-16 13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. 14"You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
And whether not you aren't affected by the hypocrisy of people claiming to be Christians, lots of people are. People do look at the behavior of others to judge whether or not what they say they believe matches up with what they profess. Oh yeah, Baha'is say "Let deeds, not words, be your adorning." So, are Christians "salty"? Do Baha'is adorn themselves with deeds and not words? I'm sure it affects other believers, but we are talking about "proof" of God here. If the believers are flaking out on following the commands and laws of the God they say they believe in, then what should non-believers think of those people? What should they think of the God of those people?
But you're a Baha'i. So it's up to you to figure out what your God wants and expects from you. But what does the Christian God expect of them? To know and to worship him? Who do they believe he is? So forget about them being hypocrites and not being able to live up to the standard their God sets for them, let's look at who they say God is. A Trinity? Hmmm? A God that created the Earth and all the universe in 6 days? Hmmm? A God that blew up the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah? Hmmm? A God that flooded and killed all the living things on Earth because they didn't follow his commands... except Noah and his family and the animals he took with him on the boat? Hmmm? The God that cast Satan down to Earth to tempt and test people? Hmmm? And on and on.
So not only do I think Christians lose credibility because of the hypocrisy of some of their leaders and followers, but what about the things they say is true about God? Things that come straight out of their Scriptures? Baha'is say none of those things really happened or are true about God. So Baha'is, themselves, destroy the credibility of the beliefs of most Christians. And Baha'is lose credibility when they claim God has always given people guidance. Yes, wrong guidance. Or, at best, allowed his guidance to be changed and used to exploit others and teach them false things. So I guess if I were a Christian, it would be a good thing not to follow those beliefs and be a hypocrite. And at some point stop saying I believe in that God. Now what about inactive Baha'is? Do they really believe in the Baha'i God? If they don't do as that God commands, I don't think so.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I already addressed that. What other believers DO is no reason to leave a religious group, Imo.
Here is one thing He says. There are more quotes like this one but this one is my favorite quote.
How far, how very far, most people are from living up to this standard of behavior. "The world" has most people held firmly in its grasp and that does not exclude Baha'is, Imho.
“My captivity can bring on Me no shame. Nay, by My life, it conferreth on Me glory. That which can make Me ashamed is the conduct of such of My followers as profess to love Me, yet in fact follow the Evil One. They, indeed, are of the lost.
When the time set for this Revelation was fulfilled, and He Who is the Day Star of the world appeared in ‘Iráq, He bade His followers observe that which would sanctify them from all earthly defilements. Some preferred to follow the desires of a corrupt inclination, while others walked in the way of righteousness and truth, and were rightly guided.
Say: He is not to be numbered with the people of Bahá who followeth his mundane desires, or fixeth his heart on things of the earth. He is My true follower who, if he come to a valley of pure gold, will pass straight through it aloof as a cloud, and will neither turn back, nor pause. Such a man is, assuredly, of Me. From his garment the Concourse on high can inhale the fragrance of sanctity…. And if he met the fairest and most comely of women, he would not feel his heart seduced by the least shadow of desire for her beauty. Such an one, indeed, is the creation of spotless chastity. Thus instructeth you the Pen of the Ancient of Days, as bidden by your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bountiful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 117-118
That depends upon what you mean by inactive. If you mean showing up at Feast and Baha'i activities, that is not a criterion to determine whether they really believe in God. However, if they do not do anything for the Cause of God or what Baha'u'llah has enjoined us to do, that might be a criterion.
“Wert thou to consider this world, and realize how fleeting are the things that pertain unto it, thou wouldst choose to tread no path except the path of service to the Cause of thy Lord. None would have the power to deter thee from celebrating His praise, though all men should arise to oppose thee.
Go thou straight on and persevere in His service. Say: O people! The Day, promised unto you in all the Scriptures, is now come. Fear ye God, and withhold not yourselves from recognizing the One Who is the Object of your creation. Hasten ye unto Him. Better is this for you than the world and all that is therein. Would that ye could perceive it!”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 314
If most or all Baha'is did what Baha'u'llah enjoined us to do, I think the Baha'i Faith would have grown a lot more by now, like it did in the heroic age of the Faith. It does make me wonder what Baha'is are doing now, but I am in no position to judge anyone.
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