• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

When was the foundation of the World

Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
I don't think the Greeks were much influenced by the Jews. They were a pretty small group in a somewhat impoverished province of Syria.

Fair enough. It was just a coincidence that the underlying tropes of Aristotle, Plato and Socrates et al were able to be incorporated into the judeo/christian western philosophies. So you don't think that the libraries of Alexandria, Antioch, Damascus, Babylon and Rome were not rife with intellectuals from all over the Greek world comparing notes from the 300's bce on. The international scholars in Babylon were not discussing things with the writers of the Septuagint.

How then is the claim made that the Babylonian Jews Hellenised the bible when they compiled the Septuagint if they had little contact or influence Greeks.... or was it only one way. Did a tradition that predated the Greeks by a millenium have NO impact on the formulation of their thought? They adopted things from the Egyptians, Phonecians, Myceneans, Assyrians and Babylonians but the Jews had NO influence.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Hi. I'm not a fan either,at least of his more political stuff, bit his work on the subject of architypal stories is formidable.

It is in the fact that the west leans toward the individual rather than the collective that the Judeo/christian ethic comes into it's own. Yes their were other influences but the foundational tropes of our civilisation are biblical.
Peace.
The foundational tropes of our civilization -- including Christian theology -- are Platonic.
 

Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
The foundational tropes of our civilization -- including Christian theology -- are Platonic.
Hi. That's quite a statement to drop, one line and out.

Their is no arguing that Platonic as well as Aristotilian thought melded surprisingly well with christian thought.

It is interesting to note that these Philosophers, who examined and rejected the Greek pantheneon and earlier eastern philosophies that guided their culture for centuries did this at the time when they would have been exposed to the monotheistic belief system and beliefs of the Jews through their mutual contact with the Persians.
That would have been an interesting topic to flesh out.Their is actually quite a body of literature about on the subject. Their are definitely Hebrew and Dharmic influences leaking in from somewhere.

Peace.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I'm not sure if your on the side of it's all a myth anyway but either way thanks for the answer.
So Paul was implying that God knew what was going to happen and decided to act, chosing some for life, before the events actually happened. I'm not sure what that signifies about Gods fairness and justice. It has the smell of tyrany to me. Peace.
Yes, interpreting it in a way that supports predestination, to me, flies smack in the face of Deuteronomy 32:4-5.

It’s always helpful to remember: if there’s more than one way to understand a passage, the one that agrees w/ the whole Bible context, is the one to accept.

That requires reading & studying the entire Bible!

Did you ever read any of the Scriptural writings of Isaac Newton? He reached some fascinating conclusions.
 

Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
Yes, interpreting it in a way that supports predestination, to me, flies smack in the face of Deuteronomy 32:4-5.

It’s always helpful to remember: if there’s more than one way to understand a passage, the one that agrees w/ the whole Bible context, is the one to accept.

That requires reading & studying the entire Bible!

Did you ever read any of the Scriptural writings of Isaac Newton? He reached some fascinating conclusions.
Hi. Yes i've read heaps of newtons writings. Spent many hours at the newton project.

I like his historical stuff too. Man, did he dig into Nicaea or what. His translations and commentaries of Athanasius letters are fascinating. If trinitarians really new what a lying manipulative politial thug the champion of their doctrine was they would be appalled. Newton was pretty sure he had blood on his hands anyway.
Peace.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Hi. Well what a glib dismissive comment, you must have expended at least 10 seconds thinking it all through, Good Job.

As someone who identifies as a metaphysic i would have thought that some insight could have been applied. Their is massive difference between, the world as in the Planet and , the world as in mankind. One is outside or before history and the other is within history.
The author, whoever you think he may have been, was a sophisticated thinker versed in Greek, Roman and Hebrew thought. He used tropes and modes of reasoning fully understandable by anyone who knows about the period. He was saying ONE thing or the OTHER.
I know what i think he meant but i was hoping for intelligent dialogue about the subject of the "world" ( Greek word Kosmos )and which meaning to apply.

BTW... your mention of Omniscience is kindergarden stuff. I thought mataphysics was supposed to be a philosophy about abstract concepts. If you think Omniscience means knowing everything then you need to do some thinking on the subject, maybe some reading as well. These are capacities and attributes and not the black and white that your comment implies.

Peace.

Well, then I propose to call it almostomniscience.

So, you believe that God Will, whatever that is, is not necessarily going to happen. Right?

Ciao

- viole
 

Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
Well, then I propose to call it almostomniscience.

So, you believe that God Will, whatever that is, is not necessarily going to happen. Right?

Ciao

- viole

Hi, almostomnescience.. . That's funny.

But no, i do not think that God's will can fail.

The original point to the question was to asertain what the author was trying to convey. Their are two choices here.

1. If World... Greek word kosmos.... Is refering to the Planet. Then by necessity the fall was foreknown before creation and this whole mess we are in is part of Gods unalterable ineffable plan.

2. If World.. . The greek word kosmos, .... Is refering to Mankind.Then his intervention comes after the fall but before the birth of human children. In this view God's intervention comes within the realm of history and he is reacting to the events that happened within history.


My own view is that existence is NOt a movie that God has already watched. That at the time of the rebellion, within the stream of time, the Father implimented a solution to the events that transpired. I do not think he already had Gen3:15 prewritten in his back pocket ready to hit them with because he KNEW what was gonna happen.

Btw... God chosing not to know something beforehand is an intersting discussion and one of those aspects of omniscience that spurred your line almostomniscience.
Peace.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Hi, almostomnescience.. . That's funny.

But no, i do not think that God's will can fail.

The original point to the question was to asertain what the author was trying to convey. Their are two choices here.

1. If World... Greek word kosmos.... Is refering to the Planet. Then by necessity the fall was foreknown before creation and this whole mess we are in is part of Gods unalterable ineffable plan.

2. If World.. . The greek word kosmos, .... Is refering to Mankind.Then his intervention comes after the fall but before the birth of human children. In this view God's intervention comes within the realm of history and he is reacting to the events that happened within history.


My own view is that existence is NOt a movie that God has already watched. That at the time of the rebellion, within the stream of time, the Father implimented a solution to the events that transpired. I do not think he already had Gen3:15 prewritten in his back pocket ready to hit them with because he KNEW what was gonna happen.

Btw... God chosing not to know something beforehand is an intersting discussion and one of those aspects of omniscience that spurred your line almostomniscience.
Peace.

I think you are complicating something simple. If God’s will cannot fail, then we have two cases:

1) Either God does not a will for today or the future
2) Or the present and the future represent what God wants

In case of 2), we should not complain, especially after praying “Thy Will be done” ad nauseam. Although, it should sound “Thy Will, if any, be done”.

Ciao

- viole
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
1) Either God does not a will for today or the future
2) Or the present and the future represent what God wants

Did you forget the Lord’s Prayer, also called the Our Father?

Jesus himself indicated it wasn’t being done, for He taught his followers to pray for God’s “will be done, as in Heaven, also upon Earth.” — Matthew 6:9-10.

What caused the delay? The rebellion in Eden (Genesis 3), and the issues that raised.... briefly, A & E chose independence from Jehovah God, so Jehovah has removed Himself from mankind in general, allowing that independence to continue, letting a record be established showcasing man’s inability to rule himself.


IMO, it was the best way to handle those issues: ju Su l. E. T
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Did you forget the Lord’s Prayer, also called the Our Father?

Probably. It is easy to forget things when you stop doing them.

Jesus himself indicated it wasn’t being done, for He taught his followers to pray for God’s “will be done, as in Heaven, also upon Earth.” — Matthew 6:9-10.
It wasn’t be done? A previous Christian told me it is. Is there some agreement on something so basic?

So, you seem to indicate He has a will. As in heaven as in earth. Otherwise, it would make no sense to pray that He actualizes it.

Correct?

What caused the delay? The rebellion in Eden (Genesis 3), and the issues that raised.... briefly, A & E chose independence from Jehovah God, so Jehovah has removed Himself from mankind in general, allowing that independence to continue, letting a record be established showcasing man’s inability to rule himself.

What delay?

Advice to the creator: next time you decide to create someone in your image, try to do a better job. That looks like a horrible and complicated mess.

Ciao

- viole
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Probably. It is easy to forget things when you stop doing them.


It wasn’t be done? A previous Christian told me it is. Is there some agreement on something so basic?

So, you seem to indicate He has a will. As in heaven as in earth. Otherwise, it would make no sense to pray that He actualizes it.

Correct?



What delay?

Advice to the creator: next time you decide to create someone in your image, try to do a better job. That looks like a horrible and complicated mess.

Ciao

- viole
My bad for not reading your entire post...you did mention the Lord’s Prayer. (I tried to edit, but my keyboard wasn’t responding. I went ahead and posted.)

Let me ask you this: aren’t you glad you can make your own choices? I’m sure you wouldn’t want to be restricted, that way. I wouldn’t. But I also see the wisdom in applying Jehovah God’s counsel for Christ’s followers in the NT.

“A horrible and complicated mess,” huh? I agree. Most people on here, though, think life is great....I try to show how bad things are....that we’re living in the Last Days....and they say ‘things are better than ever before!’

Yeah, technology has improved, but peoples’ attitudes are worse than ever! Greed and selfishness have created global problems! Just keep in mind, the people who suffer the most, like in Sudan, etc., their suffering is relatively short. For most of the rest of us, it only lasts 70-90 years. (Think about that, please.) Then, what? The Resurrection God has promised, through Christ (John 5:28-29)! When people will once again get a chance to live their lives under better conditions, no longer “under the sun” (which means life without Jehovah’s protection), they’ll experience life as our Heavenly Father intended all along, partially described in Revelation 21:3-4. Can you imagine when Isaiah 11:6-9 gets fulfilled? Awesome, IMO!

This trial, already over 6,000 years long, where humans have tried every form of government possible, is just about over. It’s really been a failure....Jehovah knew it would be, but it had to play out. He’s set things in motion....providing a Redeemer and a Kingdom for Jesus to rule...
 

Goodman John

Active Member
Hi. I'm not sure if I missed a joke or not. It's not the melue that i swim in.
I would be interested in your viewpoint though.

Peace.

As far as 'when' the world was founded (referring to time) I'm going with 4+ billion years science has been able to determine. When our universe (the physical realm) was created, that's beyond my scope- science is still working the question, and I defer to the experts on that sort of thing.

As for 'how the world/universe came about' I go with the Big Bang. I have my own take on what caused it, but you might want to take a deep breath and sit down. It helps if you have some background of Gnostic and Manichaean ideas.

Simply put, I believe in a Duality- equal and opposite Principles of Good and Evil (or Light and Dark, however you want to look at it) with God representing the Good and Satan representing the Evil. Both God and Satan dwelt in the spiritual realm, and balance was maintained. At some point Satan decided he wanted it all, and made war on God. Satan was defeated, but his defeat was so cataclysmic that he created the physical universe and he escaped into it to avoid God's wrath. Along with him, Satan took a great number of spirits, both of those that served him in his war and those he stole from God.

Satan settled upon our world, and saw what had evolved here (billions of years to us, perhaps an instant for Satan?) and desired his own worshipers. He settled on one creature, but he couldn't make it 'work' until one of the spirits was placed within it. Man was the result. (I don't think of it as Man springing forth fully formed and fully aware- I see more like the proto-Man creature touching the Monolith in the film 2001- self-awareness and Knowledge being imparted. Modern Man- and his intelligence- comes later down the evolutionary line.)

From here, the story is pretty mundane, following (other than the ridiculous Garden of Eden story) the early history of Man as recounted in the Pentateuch. The problem, though, is that the 'God' of the Pentateuch is Satan masquerading AS God in order to deceive Man as to his spiritual nature and thus be the Big Man On Campus. Hence all the jealousy, the genocides, the nuking of cities, and this fake 'God' generally acting like an a** while demanding that Man worship him. This continues on through the entrance of the Hebrews, who buy into the fake God and receive a boatload of rules and regulations- some of them decent, and some insanely ridiculous. (This does not in any way imply that the Jews themselves are evil; they're just recognizing the wrong God but could not have known any better.)

Fast forward to the New Testament times. Enter Jesus (in whose body the spirit of Christ has been placed- one of the powerful Good spirits that was swept up in the God-Satan war) and his message (Christ speaking through him) of the Good God.

Now the game is REALLY on, because the message Jesus/Christ brought started waking people up to their nature and spirits started escaping the physical realm, thus weakening Satan's grasp. Satan counters this with a number of plays ranging from convincing Man he doesn't exist (and God doesn't exist either) to distracting Man with riches and power and all manner of seductions- anything to keep us in the dark, or at least keep our souls weak so they can't escape.

Fast forward again to the last chapter: When the number of spirits returned to God surpasses the number remaining in the physical realm (on earth or in holding or on other planets, for all we know), the physical universe will cease to exist. Satan will be returned to the spiritual realm to await whatever sort of beat-down God has in store for him, and the remaining spirits will be utterly destroyed or otherwise cut off from God's grace. So it's a good idea for us to recognize our divine connection and strengthen our soul and spirit so we can get off this rock (the physical world IS essentially Hell for our spirits) and not miss the Last Bus to Paradise. It's in our spirit's best interest as well, because the physical realm is painful for them and they don't want to be here any longer than necessary- unless they've been totally corrupted by Satan, that is- so if you want a chance at what's behind Door #3, be kind to your spirit and to yourself and GET RIGHT WITH GOD.
 
Last edited:

Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
I think you are complicating something simple. If God’s will cannot fail, then we have two cases:

1) Either God does not a will for today or the future
2) Or the present and the future represent what God wants

In case of 2), we should not complain, especially after praying “Thy Will be done” ad nauseam. Although, it should sound “Thy Will, if any, be done”.

Ciao

- viole
Hi. Not meaning to belabour the point but this is a literary question about the intent and word use of a particular author. He used the word kosmos I'm just asking which meaning of the word the author intended. Peace.
 

Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
As far as 'when' the world was founded (referring to time) I'm going with 4+ billion years science has been able to determine. When our universe (the physical realm) was created, that's beyond my scope- science is still working the question, and I defer to the experts on that sort of thing.

As for 'how the world/universe came about' I go with the Big Bang. I have my own take on what caused it, but you might want to take a deep breath and sit down. It helps if you have some background of Gnostic and Manichaean ideas.

Simply put, I believe in a Duality- equal and opposite Principles of Good and Evil (or Light and Dark, however you want to look at it) with God representing the Good and Satan representing the Evil. Both God and Satan dwelt in the spiritual realm, and balance was maintained. At some point Satan decided he wanted it all, and made war on God. Satan was defeated, but his defeat was so cataclysmic that he created the physical universe and he escaped into it to avoid God's wrath. Along with him, Satan took a great number of spirits, both of those that served him in his war and those he stole from God.

Satan settled upon our world, and saw what had evolved here (billions of years to us, perhaps an instant for Satan?) and desired his own worshipers. He settled on one creature, but he couldn't make it 'work' until one of the spirits was placed within it. Man was the result. (I don't think of it as Man springing forth fully formed and fully aware- I see more like the proto-Man creature touching the Monolith in the film 2001- self-awareness and Knowledge being imparted. Modern Man- and his intelligence- comes later down the evolutionary line.)

From here, the story is pretty mundane, following (other than the ridiculous Garden of Eden story) the early history of Man as recounted in the Pentateuch. The problem, though, is that the 'God' of the Pentateuch is Satan masquerading AS God in order to deceive Man as to his spiritual nature and thus be the Big Man On Campus. Hence all the jealousy, the genocides, the nuking of cities, and this fake 'God' generally acting like an a** while demanding that Man worship him. This continues on through the entrance of the Hebrews, who buy into the fake God and receive a boatload of rules and regulations- some of them decent, and some insanely ridiculous. (This does not in any way imply that the Jews themselves are evil; they're just recognizing the wrong God but could not have known any better.)

Fast forward to the New Testament times. Enter Jesus (in whose body the spirit of Christ has been placed- one of the powerful Good spirits that was swept up in the God-Satan war) and his message (Christ speaking through him) of the Good God.

Now the game is REALLY on, because the message Jesus/Christ brought started waking people up to their nature and spirits started escaping the physical realm, thus weakening Satan's grasp. Satan counters this with a number of plays ranging from convincing Man he doesn't exist (and God doesn't exist either) to distracting Man with riches and power and all manner of seductions- anything to keep us in the dark, or at least keep our souls weak so they can't escape.

Fast forward again to the last chapter: When the number of spirits returned to God surpasses the number remaining in the physical realm (on earth or in holding or on other planets, for all we know), the physical universe will cease to exist. Satan will be returned to the spiritual realm to await whatever sort of beat-down God has in store for him, and the remaining spirits will be utterly destroyed or otherwise cut off from God's grace. So it's a good idea for us to recognize our divine connection and strengthen our soul and spirit so we can get off this rock (the physical world IS essentially Hell for our spirits) and not miss the Last Bus to Paradise. It's in our spirit's best interest as well, because the physical realm is painful for them and they don't want to be here any longer than necessary- unless they've been totally corrupted by Satan, that is- so if you want a chance at what's behind Door #3, be kind to your spirit and to yourself and GET RIGHT WITH GOD.
Hi. Well i did ask for your opinion
Thanks for the reply. While interesting i think you missed the point of the question.

I am not asking when the creation of the world was i am asking whether Eph1:4 is talking about the foundation of the Planet or the foundation of mankind. Both readings are valid it must mean one or the other.
Peace
 
Top