joe1776
Well-Known Member
I agree completely. That's a worthy goal. I'd like to suggest that we might become more aware that making criminals of others for behavior that has harmed no one is a shortcoming (intolerance).
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Why Prostitution Should be Legal
- Thread starter Rational Agnostic
- Start date
PureX
Veteran Member
Prostitution harms everyone involved in it. So does pornography and most other forms of 'sex-for-money'. It's sad that you can't allow yourself to see this.
joe1776
Well-Known Member
Many people agree with you. However, it isn't your opinions that I find immoral, it's that you think your opinions are sufficient grounds for making criminals of your neighbors who don't agree with you.
But your position isn't just immoral; it's dumb. It's like thinking that we can stop people from drinking alcohol by making the act illegal. All you do by making prostitution illegal is to create a business opportunity for criminals.
Usually, the question of whether something should be legal or illegal depends on whether or not it harms somebody. My view is that if there's no victim, then there's no crime.
But either way, this is beside the point. You were talking about dignity earlier, so are you saying that if something isn't dignified, it should be illegal?
Then my question still stands unanswered, since I listed activities which involve sexual activity and the buying and selling of it.
The Reverend Bob
Fart Machine and Beastmaster
You really think legalizing prostitution is going to prevent pimping and sex trafficking. That is very naive. Prostitution is a billion dollar industry ran by organized crime and I doubt they are going to give up their golden goose. In fact legalizing prostitution will probably make it easier for them, then they can just do what they do right out in the open with no one to interfere with their business.
The Reverend Bob
Fart Machine and Beastmaster
You mean "supply and demand"
The Reverend Bob
Fart Machine and Beastmaster
You actually believe these criminals are going to give up their business whether it is legal or not? You actually believe this. And please tell me if prostitution is decriminalized how and where is this newly legit industry going to get it's supply of prostitutes because I know how they fill their supply and it ain't pretty. 800,000 women and children a year are trafficked and forced into prostitution; do you really think that "legalizing" it is going to stop that? You are naive.
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PureX
Veteran Member
Too bad. Some of our neighbors would rob and rape people at will if they were allowed to, because they don't agree with our collective desire to tell them they can't. And yet, we do have the collective desire to stop them, and the ability as a civil society. So, there ya go.
No one is making sex illegal. No one is stopping consenting adults from having sex. We're just saying that it's damaging to individuals, and to society to treat it like a commodity, to be bought and sold for money. That you can't/won't recognize this is your own problem, and to my mind, only serves to validate that opinion.
PureX
Veteran Member
I think it's sad that you refuse to see a woman driven into prostitution by poverty, drug addiction, and/or a lifetime of physical and sexual abuse by men, as a victim. Or that you can't see that we are all victimized by a culture that so worships money that even sexual intimacy must be subjugated to mighty dollar.
I've answered your questions several times, now. You just refuse to recognize the truth within the answers that I gave you.
Legalized prostitution is one of those things that when available, the demand for it outruns the supply. In other words, in areas with legalized prostitution, the demand for prostitutes increases, and sex trafficking increases in those areas to fill the increased demand.
Shad
Veteran Member
Depends on how much control the government has and the systems government uses. Making something legal typically involved regulations not merely turning a blind eye or removing the illegal status. A legal system can be more costly due to taxes, min wage, employment benefits, licensing, etc. The illegal elements may just avoid it due to cost. If prostitution is also decriminalized the illegal element namely customer and contact face low risk low end penalties like fines for a low cost "product" in exchange for legal warranty protections and customer protections. For example STD regulation.
joe1776
Well-Known Member
Killing off the illegal trade isn't a problem. Customers aren't going to go to illegal suppliers and risk going to jail if they can get what they need from a legal source. Prostitutes aren't going to work illegally if they can work legally.
Prostitution is legal in Denmark. Denmark's problem is that they are the only legal supplier so Amsterdam's red light district is handling the demand from other countries. Tourism is up also.
I read an estimate that 95% of the prostitutes in Denmark are foreign born women who were prostitutes in their native countries. They moved to Denmark where they can work legally. The police protect them rather than hassle them. In countries where prostitution is illegal, they get raped by the police who hold power over them. Some cops think of it as a benefit of their job.
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joe1776
Well-Known Member
Well, of course it does. The illegal trade is going to lose business in Utah if customers in Utah can go to Nevada to get laid legally. The stats for Nevada won't show that there is no increased demand overall.
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There are a lot of things in this world, in this society, in this culture - which are sad. But my suggestion would be to set our collective sadness aside and just look at the facts of what is being argued here.
If a woman is physically forced into prostitution and is made a prisoner unable to escape - then that woman would be a victim. However, she would be a victim of kidnapping, not prostitution. Kidnapping is still illegal and would remain so even if prostitution becomes legal.
I agree with you about the culture, but until the revolution comes to overthrow it, the only thing anyone can try to do is advocate that the ruling class be reduced in power. Those who advocate for the current ruling class to gain even more power are going in the wrong direction, imho.
Your answer wasn't a clear "yes" or "no."
So, you're saying that pornography should be outlawed? Yes or no.
What about cybersex? Yes or no.
Girly magazines? Yes or no.
Should exotic dancing (stripping) be outlawed? Yes or no.
If we're talking about things which are bought and sold for money and which sexually arouse a male, then by your own stated principles (regarding dignity, dehumanization, degradation, etc.), there are a lot of things which would/should be outlawed.
That would include the fashion industry, the cosmetics industry, beauty pageants, and so on. Most of it is bourgeois nonsense which society can do without, but at this point, it's hypocritical for such a society to outlaw prostitution while all these other activities are legal and encouraged.
PureX
Veteran Member
The facts are that nearly all humans everywhere see prostitution is humiliating and dehumanizing. Which is why most cultures refuse or encourage to justify it by making it legal. And I concur with their decision, for those same reasons.
What does physics have to do with it? Is force not real unless it's physical? Is suffering not real unless it's physical? Because this seems to be your attitude and I strongly object to that kind of absurdly narrow interpretation of reality.
We do not have to ratify the greed. We can say no to it at any time. And in this instance, I think that's exactly what we should be doing. I also think we need to ban pornography for money, and other forms of sexual exploitation for profit. But let's start with the obvious one: prostitution.
No, I'm saying that the buying and selling of it should be outlawed. As should any dissemination of it without both the subject's and the recipient's permission.
Not for money. I have no problem with humans engaging in any of these things through mutual desire and consent. I do not, however, believe they should be commodified and sold for profit.
They should not have to be outlawed, they should be avoided as an expression of common respect for humanity and decency. But that is not the culture we are living in, so I think we have to start at the beginning. And that is with outright prostitution.
"Nearly all humans everywhere"? Really? Do you have some sort of citation for this claim?
I wouldn't even say it's "most cultures," if you look at this link: Prostitution by region - Wikipedia
"Absurdly narrow interpretation of reality"? Maybe it would be better if you'd stop trying to make the subject about me and stick to the topic at hand.
I was merely drawing a distinction between "prostitution" (a voluntary act) versus "kidnapping" (which is involuntary and implies being held prisoner against one's will).
And yes, it is a physical action. If a woman has the capability of walking away from her captors undetected (if even they are captors) and finding a public place or a phone to call the police, then she would be free. If she's physically prevented from doing so, then that would be kidnapping, wouldn't it?
We agree on some things, but where we differ is in how we pick our battles. I would say that in order to fight greed, one has to attack the top tier of society. Prostitutes and most of their customers are at the lower tiers in society - close to the bottom. Why pick on them? They're easy targets - and the ruling class already goes after them anyway.
This is consistent with your view on prostitution, so I have nothing to add here.
These activities are currently legal.
Well, you've made your position clear enough. You don't wish to see prostitution legalized. You've cited a number of reasons, although I also know that we've agreed in the past on most economic issues and seem to view the capitalist system similarly.
However, I don't accept the notion that all prostitutes are forced into doing it.
One can be against kidnapping, sex trafficking, crimes against children, etc. - while still supporting and respecting a woman's choice to become a prostitute, as long as it's done with her informed consent and her own free will. You would deny a woman that choice because you automatically assume that she's "driven into prostitution by poverty, drug addiction, and/or a lifetime of physical and sexual abuse by men."
But I can't believe that this is the case for each and every woman who becomes a prostitute. You don't even entertain the slightest possibility that there might be women who actually want to do that job.
Sigh. Such denial. Let’s try again.
Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking? by Seo-Young Cho, Axel Dreher, Eric Neumayer :: SSRN
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I see that you failed again. You quoted nothing, you did not post any data. You did not even define "trafficking" . Trafficking could be as lame as more women voluntarily entering the progression. At least that is all that it seems to be here.
You lose. I linked you to the source. So lazy.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Nope, since you cannot follow the basic rules of debate you are the lazy one here. Or perhaps you realize that that article is just another nothing burger.
Copy and paste, if there is anything of note. I read the article and found it making in substance.
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