I guess its a wait and see then......some are going to be very disappointed.
That is life and our choice.
Regards Tony
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Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?
- Thread starter Deeje
- Start date
That is life and our choice.
Regards Tony
Shad
Veteran Member
I refuted this months ago but here you are still using the claim which include modern design knowledge not present in the Biblical record.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Christians are going to keep waiting and waiting but they are not going to SEE anything except the unfolding of the World Order of Baha'u'llah.
The excerpt from the Watchtower about disfellowshipping was disturbing to read.
Shad
Veteran Member
Those silly nations banning stoning for thought crimes!
I didn't see it...was it from the Watchtower? Tell me what was disturbing about it. Tell me what was unscriptural about it? Do you think that discipline is unnecessary even for adults? God doesn't seem to think so.
The first disfellowshipping took place in Eden. God conducted it and banished the first pair for their disobedience to his stated command.
Since humans inherited sin from Adam (Romans 5:12) then that explains why we all have the propensity to make bad decisions, based on faulty thinking. It doesn't mean that we have no choices about our actions, however. We cannot be forced to break God's law...we can only do so by choice.
Adam and his wife exercised their free will in a wrong way and paid the penalty. God stated the penalty beforehand so there was no excuse.
Same with those in Israel who rebelled against the duly constituted authority of Moses. God demonstrated again that he would not tolerate disobedience and rebelliousness among his people by evicting the rebels permanently.
In the Christian congregation too, there was no place for dissenters. God hates it when those who cause division (and who are serial complainers) make their presence felt among our peaceful brotherhood. When disgruntled people just want to whine about what they see as misinterpreted scripture, or "unfair" or "unjustified" treatment, our loving shepherds will try and appeal to these ones with scriptural counsel. If that is not accepted and the behavior goes into outright apostasy or a continuation of immoral conduct, they will then be expelled from fellowship with the congregation.
We follow what is recommended in scripture for such ones....
Jesus said...."Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."
We follow this directive. Then there was Paul's recommendation.....
1 Corinthians 5:9-13....
"In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves."
God gives authority to the shepherds to "judge" within the congregation whilst he judges those outside of it.
As for those who want to promote their own ideas and disseminate them among their brothers Paul wrote at Titus 3:10-11....
"As for a man who promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition, 11 knowing that such a man has deviated from the way and is sinning and is self-condemned." (see also 2 John 9-10)
Does disfellowshipping feel bad? It should, because usually a lot of effort has gone into trying to correct such a person in a spirit of love, but if it has been ignored or disregarded, or their behavior was blamed on someone else, there will be consequences. The same happened with Adam and his wife.....they also tried to pass the buck.
Does it have to end badly? Not at all....the way back is always open. (Hebrews 12:11) No one stays disfellowshipped who doesn't wish to.
If a person repents and wants to come back into the congregation, then 2 Corinthians 2:6-9 applies....
"This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man; 7 now you should instead kindly forgive and comfort him, so that he may not be overwhelmed by excessive sadness. 8 I therefore exhort you to confirm your love for him. 9 For this is also why I wrote to you: to determine whether you would give proof of your obedience in all things."
It can and does end very well for many.....discipline is a test of a person's humility. The warm "welcome home" touches the whole congregation.
So tell me what is unscriptural about the procedure.
Do parents discipline their children because they hate them?......Neither does God.
Not "species" Adrian...."KINDS". Do you understand the distinction that this classification makes concerning the animals and other creatures that were brought to Noah by God for preservation? Noah did not need to find them and he has decades to plan for the storage of food for them all. It was done under God's instruction, remember?
Kinds of animals can of course be interpreted or understood differently. Seeing the term as analogous to species makes the most sense as a way of distinguishing different animals as of course different species as a general rule can not interbred. They are distinct populations of animals that can be distinguished from other animals by morphology (what they look like) and genetics. The reason bible literalists reject species as not being the same as 'kind' is because its so easy to prove the impossibility of physically locating all species on Noah's Ark. The evidence against placing all known species aboard the Ark is so overwhelming as to be practically irrefutable....that is to all bexcept die hard literalists who are never going to believe anything other than their church teaches them.
So the next step is to fudge the issue by taking about "kinds of animals" as not being species but something else. However once bible literalists go down that road, their conflict with science just becomes even more insurmountable. No wonder JWs take the view that science and every religion (apart from their own) is under the influence of Satan.
If you had actually read my short post it would have also been clear I was no longer taking the position of Noah collecting the animals but about the animals coming to Noah. So its now established the impossibility of having all the 'kinds of animals' migrate to a single point unless God miraculously teleports them and changes their nature so they can with stand being in an environment they are not designed for.
As for storing the food, you obviously didn't read my last post or given much thought to the proplems associated with feeding every kind of animal. Do you believe that animals reared in Australia and New Zealand can migrate to the Middle East and live off a diet grown in the Middle East and prepared by Noah? If you do then you are simply demonstrating a poor understanding of biological science. Of course you have faith and can imagine God would provide as Jesus turned water into wine.
That's the kind of 'faith' you need to apply. You could have a never ending food supply for every 'kind' of animal.
Of course God is not constrained or bound by human limitation. That includes what Jehovah Witnesses believe He has done or will do in the future.
Whatever God purposes, he accomplishes. (Isaiah 55:8-11) What you consider "allegorical" is because you display little faith in God's ability to do what he says he will. Unless everything is backed by science you won't believe it unless it concerns your prophet....and then you will swallow it all hook, line and sinker.....you don't see a little problem there? Where is the scientific proof that your prophet was from God?
Baha'is don't need to twist science or it malign it as under the influence of Satan. We don't need to create pseudoscience to debunk established science. We don't live in a world of magical thinking proclaiming ourselves 'faithful' and attacking everyone else as 'faithless'. We have very different world views.
I wonder if you have @RedhorseWoman and @savagewind on ignore? It is interesting for me to see a couple of ex-Jehovah Witnesses on the thread you started. Ironically your thread began with criticising my involvement in the interfaith movement when I was posting on a thread started by a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints.
The link was from the Watchtower Online.
Questions From Readers — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
It starts off:
We are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of our fleshly family relationship could be exterminated for apostasy from God and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ordered in the nation of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai and in the land of Palestine. “Thou shalt surely kill him; thy hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him to death with stones, because he hath sought to draw thee away from Jehovah thy God, . . . And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is in the midst of thee.”—Deut. 13:6-11, AS.
Of course stoning people to death for apostosy was God's law in the time of Moses. It is completely outdated now as are some of the Christian laws.
Adam and Eve is another allegorical story and has nothing to do with disfellowshipping IMHO. It is of course about mans relationship to God, His laws and the consequences of following those laws.
As previously mentioned Baha'is reject the doctrine of orginal sin. We see it as a man made doctrine based on a misunderstanding of Paul's verse in Romans and taking it literally. We discussed this before and will have to agree to disagree.
I agree the Hebrew people turned awy from God and were subsequently exiled due to their immorality and idol worship. The consequences included the first exile at the hands of the Assyrians and Babylonians, then the second eile due to the Romans. The physical aspect of that exile has clearly ended. The spiritual relationship is more complex but its certainly not one of perpetual banishment. We've discussed this earlier and again we agree to disagree.
These are problems any faith community has, the Baha'is included. There are much more constructive ways of dealing with and resolving such issues than disfellowshipping. Disfellowshipping is extreme, harsh and cruel. The fact you use scripture that's two thousand years old to justify says it all. It makes as much sense using the approach Paul advocated setting up churches in Greece and Rome as proposing stoning people to death based on Mosaic law. Theology and theocracies based on either Judaism or Christianity are clearly outdated and are unworkable in the modern era. That's why a new revelation from God is required.
Paul's approach and advice two thousand years ago was during very different social times.
Here's his advice about woman speaking in churches:
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 14:34
Is that appropriate for the twenty first century?
If the 'shephards' are judging based on an archaic understanding of laws that were necessary when setting up the church, they are no 'shephards' in my opinion.
Ironically its the JWs who have set up their own sect promoting their own ideas and disseminating them among their brothers. That's one reason among many the JWs are poorly regarded by their fellow Christians.
In many instance it ends with permanent estrangement and damage to relationships between family members and friends when members of your congregation make a reasonable and informed decision to leave your church. I don't believe its because they are wicked and immoral people but because they have seen the light. They see in the JWs what the JWs see in the rest of Christianity...a man made fallible organisation making grandiose claims that are not even remotely inspired by Christ.
Good parent's don't disown their children and children of good character shouldn't cut ties with their parents. There may be rare exceptions such as sexual abuse and severe violence but nothing to do with what the JWs advocate.
Another disturbing aspect is knowing that whatever I say, or anyone else says, is not going to change the thinking of JWs one iota.
You will note it says one does not know the day or hour. As William Miller predicted the year it does not make His Interpretation of Prophecy wrong. the day and hour still had to be found.
It was accurate, as an event did happen in 1844. Thus now the question is if the event can be further validated by other scripture. the way 1844 is calculated is noted in short below;
"The Book of Daniel fixes the period between the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the martyrdom of Christ at seventy weeks, for it is through the martyrdom of Christ that the sacrifice is ended and the altar destroyed. This prophecy thus refers to the advent of Christ.....
1844 was arrived at by first using Daniel to prove Christ with the third edict, which was issued in 457 B.C. This is the most likely the intended edict. Now the Seventy weeks makes 490 days. Each day, according to the text of the Bible, is one year, for in the Torah it is said: “The day of the Lord is one year.” Therefore, 490 days is 490 years. The third edict of Artaxerxes was issued 457 years before the birth of Christ, and Christ was thirty-three years old at the time of His martyrdom and ascension. Thirty-three added to 457 is 490, which is the time announced by Daniel for the advent of Christ....
Now that the advent of Christ has been proven through the prophecies of Daniel, let us establish the advent of Bahá’u’lláh and of the Báb.....
...In Daniel 8:13 it is said: “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”, until it says: “at the time of the end shall be the vision”. That is to say, how long shall this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation endure? Or, when will the morn of Revelation dawn? Then he said, “two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”. Briefly, the point is that he fixes a period of 2,300 years, for according to the text of the Torah each day is one year. Therefore, from the date of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the advent of the Báb there are 1,844 years, and if 456 years are added to this number it makes 2,300 years. That is to say, the fulfilment of the vision of Daniel took place in A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the advent of the Báb. Examine the text of the Book of Daniel and observe how clearly he fixes the year of His advent! There could indeed be no clearer prophecy for a Manifestation than this."
The year 1844 is also the year 1260. Which means the book of Revelation takes on a whole new meaning, as the Message of Muhammad was in the year 1260 when the Bab gave His Message.
So references to Times Time and half a times, 3 1/2 years, 42 months and 1260 days all revert to 1260 years and the events that happened in the Dispensation of Muhammad.
the 2520 prophecy is another story.
Regards Tony
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
High hopes.Christians are going to keep waiting and waiting but they are not going to SEE anything except the unfolding of the World Order of Baha'u'llah.
Best wishes.
ajay0
Well-Known Member
Where do the Brahmakumaris serve the purpose of war !
Peace can come only with tolerance and acceptance.
Well, I have never seen the devil except in horror films. Same with Dracula, Werewolf , Frankenstein and the rest of the dudes.
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ManSinha
Well-Known Member
If you take away the exclusivity - there is nothing that Christ taught that is different from what is in the Upanishads and Vedas and SGGS - in many ways - that is the defining characteristic is it not?
RedhorseWoman
Active Member
No, JWs do NOT follow what is recommended in scripture. JWs do NOT go to their brothers to discuss any sins with the person in private. They do NOT then bring one or two more to talk to the sinner. The do NOT reveal the matter to the congregation as a whole. The MO in JW congregations is to run to the elders and report the "sinner" to them, at which point a judicial committee is established wherein the suspected sinner is questioned and three elders determine in their opinions if the sinner is "repentant." If they think that the person is not repentant or not repentant enough, they will mete out punishment, up to and including disfellowshipping.
And this is a total farce. Nowhere in Paul's "recommendation" does he mandate that congregation members shun anyone who is unrepentantly sinning. He urges the congregation members not to associate with them, but it is NOT an order that would result in a congregation member being disfellowshipped themselves if they should choose to continue any sort of association. The JWs take this "recommendation" and twist it into something it was never intended to be.
Oh, please. A lot of effort? Come on, Deeje...JW disfellowshipping is quite arbitrary and doesn't have much to do with the elders bending over backward to help someone with their efforts being ignored or disregarded. One of the main criteria for whether or not a person is disfellowshipped is if the "sin" is obvious to "the world." For instance, a young woman who makes the mistake of having sex outside of marriage and gets pregnant will almost always be disfellowshipped no matter how repentant she might be or even if her "sin" occurred just once simply because pregnancy can't be hidden for long, and the congregation would "look bad" to the world.
Conversely, if a pedophile lies and claims that his victim or victims "misunderstood" his intentions or outright lied about him, nothing will be done. He will remain as a JW in good standing, while someone who committed a very minor "sin" would be thrown out because "the world" would be aware of the "sin" and they don't want the congregation to look bad to the world.
Yes, those who have actually committed gross sins very often do return. It's not exactly a "welcome home," however. The "sinner" needs to first of all, pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and overcome whatever issue caused them to be disfellowshipped in the first place. Then they have to submit to months of attending meetings (preferably sitting in the back, entering the meeting after the starting prayer, and leaving prior to the ending prayer so as not to offend the "good JWs) where no one will speak to them. Then they can petition the elders to reinstate them, at which point these men will make an opinion as to whether or not the sinner is repentant enough. This process can go on for months or possibly years...depending on the opinions of the elders.
The procedure as laid out in scripture is not the issue. It is the twisting of that scriptural procedure by the JW organization that makes it so abhorrent.
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sooda
Veteran Member
Very disturbing..
Excerpt:
We are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of our fleshly family relationship could be exterminated for apostasy from God and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ordered in the nation of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai and in the land of Palestine. “Thou shalt surely kill him; thy hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him to death with stones, because he hath sought to draw thee away from Jehovah thy God, . . . And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is in the midst of thee.”—Deut. 13:6-11,
sooda
Veteran Member
What terrible people..
The Jehovah's Witnesses who are faithful to the governing body do not seem to realize the psychological programming that is being done by the writing team.
ManSinha
Well-Known Member
That is a pretty harsh condemnation
I would like to believe that the vast majority are reasonable individuals - and if one is allowed to appeal to the side that seeks new knowledge - may be they will listen (to what the rest of us may be called the voice of reason) but then again - may be I am the odd optimist who does not know any better
Generally people base their feelings on their experiences with the people of any particular group. Since those experiences vary, our feelings vary accordingly. Personally I see groups or individuals claiming to have 'THE WAY' as all pretty much the same. That single factor seems to override the differences in beliefs, for me.
It wasn't any human that I listened to to be informed of something other than the Jehovah's Witnesses' beliefs. It all came from within me or even from Heaven. I was a "good" JW and obeyed the rules. One rule was not to seek anything good or true in the World.
It is not true that Jehovah's Witnesses, as a rule, are hateful and stupid. But they who will never question the authority of The Watchtower are careless and blinded.