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Atheism is a RELIGION

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Ok, what is the first law of thermodynamics.
Disorder or randomness in the universe, but out of chaos was brought forth order.
So, without a Creator, the universe could revert, but since I believe there is a Creator then it will Not revert.
Does older have to mean as in aging like a person or animal ages and dies.
The universe has stellar nurseries, that is Not showing growing older/aging.
What consequences, I have No idea.

The first law is irrelevant to entropy
Wrong way round, as i have already stated and the reason why, i am not repeating.
Woo
Yes, getting older on a universal scale
Without the destruction of previous stars those stellar nurseries could not exist
Heat death is the ultimate consequence. Where every particle has moved so far from each other that there is no thermodynamic free energy to sustain the process of increasing entropy
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The first law is irrelevant to entropy
Yes, getting older on a universal scale
Without the destruction of previous stars those stellar nurseries could not exist
Heat death is the ultimate consequence. Where every particle has moved so far from each other that there is no thermodynamic free energy to sustain the process of increasing entropy
Thank you for your reply.
Without the Creator I could think ' heat death ' but with the Creator that will Not be the case.
Just because something has Not yet happened, then what now seems possible could end up impossible.
To me ' getting older ' does Not have to mean dying out of existence.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Thank you for your reply.
Without the Creator I could think ' heat death ' but with the Creator that will Not be the case.
Just because something has Not yet happened, then what now seems possible could end up impossible.
To me ' getting older ' does Not have to mean dying out of existence.

It is the logical conclusion, no god required

You misunderstand the aging of the universe and entropy.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
It is the logical conclusion, no god required
You misunderstand the aging of the universe and entropy.
What seems logical without God, is logical when God enters the picture.
Not meant to misunderstand, but that God did Not create the visible material world to go extinct.
Present knowledge does Not have to mean No future knowledge.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Why do you think people write those stories, just to entertain you? Or perhaps they are trying to convey to you a view of reality that is new to you. That is different from yours, and that you may find more useful and truthful than the one you now hold. You seem to be implying that fiction is a lie of some sort. But in many ways fiction can reveal the truth better than reality does. How can you not see this?

I do see it. I know that stories can be used to explore concepts and ideas, to make us think about things in a new way. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with people who start insisting that the stories are factually true and then try to use them as a basis for laws.

The Star Wars Trilogy claimed events happened that have no substantiating evidence, whatever. And yet those stories revealed some truths about life and reality to a lot of people that they hadn't been able to recognize and appreciate, before reading them. Why can't you afford the same credit to religious myths, when so many people tell you that they derived similar life lessons from them? Are you just that prejudiced against anything religious?

No one is saying that Star Wars actually happened! No one is saying that we should live our lives by the Jedi code! No one is going out hunting Sith (and really just saying that people they don't like are Sith so they have an excuse to round them up and imprison them).

One can assume them to be factual if they want to when there is no way of proving them otherwise. Maybe those events in the Star Wars Trilogy really did happen in that galaxy far, far away. Or maybe those events happened, but not exactly as the story tells of them. There is no way for you or I to determine this. So why are you spouting off so adamantly about how the Bible stories are absolutely not true, when they certainly could be at least partly true, and when you and I weren't there, and so can't know what really happened and what didn't? Again, this looks to me like pure bias on your part, based on the fact that these specific stories are part of a religious agenda.

All too often, believing in a literal interpretation of the Bible leads to contradictions with what we know of reality. The Bible says one thing (earth is 6000 years old) and reality says another thing (the world is billions of years old). They can't both be true.

But what you don't seem to understand is that you don't get to decide how they 'bear on reality' because you have no way of actually knowing this. You wouldn't presume to tell everyone else that they can't find any significant meaning and truth in the Star Wars Trilogy, would you? So why are you spouting off about how outrageous you think it is that anyone would find such meaning or truth in biblical mythology? Especially when religious mythology is designed and intended to do exactly that for people.

Why are you twisting my words into a strawman, claiming that I have a problem with people using the religious stories as a way to explore meanings and ideas and concepts? I do not. I have a problem with people putting forward the Bible as FACT because it requires those people to deny reality.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Seems to me it describes just about every organized and un-organized religion.

But not Atheism.

Jesus was Not kidding when he said his followers (genuine and fake) would be hated - Matthew 10:22; 24:9

Doesn't m,ean we needed a god to tell us this - all throughout history, members of any particular religion have had at least some people who hated them for it.

The ' showdown ' time of separating to take place on Earth is approaching as found at Matthew 25:31-33.

People have been claiming Jesus' return is imminent for about 2000 years.

It won't be long before the ' powers that be ' will turn on Christendom ( fake 'weed/tares' Christians ).

No, that's not vague at all...

I find there are people who put ' faith ' in oneself, so what a person puts first in one's life is their ' god '.
What is put first is their religious belief even if Not thought of in that category.

You really don't understand what religion means...

I mean, you agreed with me about my list of things that religion has: holy texts, holy men, rituals and ceremonies, gathering places, observance of important days, and so on. You even said it sounds like organised AND un-organised religions.

So, let's say a person puts gambling first. What are the gambling holy texts? Can you give me the gambling version of any of those things? Of course not, because gambling is not a religion.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
God is Nature's God... that's what all religious people; all MANKIND.. AGREE with..

100% false. I know of a large number of people who do NOT agree with you, here.

I, for example, HAVE NO GOD-- nature or otherwise.

Gods are for the weak minded anyway, who are disatisfied with "We do not know".

They insert the false idea: "GodDidIt" which answers nothing, explains nothing.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Yipes! How did you conclude I am Not allowed to think for myself
For someone to say they 'can't categorically say no gods exists' to me means an 'agnostic', not atheist.
My high school English teacher said she was an 'agnostic' because she was Not sure God exists.
She said that because one student asked if she was an atheist. (one who categorically states No God/god exists)
That is because you are using language too loosely. I can state that I am extremely sure -- based on my personal observations of the universe and how things work in it, combined with my knowledge of science, and my knowledge of human nature and how we think and solve problems -- that there is no God. And I can state, at the same time, that I cannot be totally categorical about that, because the fact is I do not know everything.

But the real point I'm trying to make is that "I am extremely sure there is no God," is pretty much the equivalent of saying "I am an atheist." I am saying I'm 99.9% convinced, leaving only 0.1% chance that I'm wrong -- and by insisting on calling me "agnostic," you are trying to turn that to something closer to 50/50, which YOU KNOW FROM MY OWN WRITINGS is not even close.

That, in my opinion, is dishonest.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Let me try to make that even clearer, if I can. The sentences:
  • "I do not believe in the existence of any gods," and
  • "I do not know if gods exist"
Are not even remotely the same in meaning. Capisce?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
To me 'reality' is that most people if you ask them if they want peace they say, ' yes '.
So, since most people say they want peace, then why isn't there more peace on earth.
Because while most people say the "really want peace," what they actually MEAN is that they "really want peace, so long as it's on my terms."
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I do see it. I know that stories can be used to explore concepts and ideas, to make us think about things in a new way. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with people who start insisting that the stories are factually true and then try to use them as a basis for laws.
Very few people actually believe those stories are historically factual, though, even among theists. They have simply "suspend disbelief" as we all do with all kinds of literary fiction, for the sake of the conceptual rewards that such fiction offers us. And people wanting the law of the land to reflect their values is commonplace among a great many of us, theists and non-theists, alike. So even though I may not agree with how others have chosen to interpret and value the insights of the literature they read, including religious myth, I see no basis upon which to presume to 'correct' them. Also, I don't see the value in trying to challenge people who reject both reason or evidence as their criteria for conceptualizing reality. What do you propose to challenge them, with? I understand your thinking that they are wrong to assume that myths are reality, but I don't see how you can stop them from doing so.
No one is saying that Star Wars actually happened! No one is saying that we should live our lives by the Jedi code!
It says so right at the beginning of the film! And I assume in the beginning of the book as well.
No one is going out hunting Sith (and really just saying that people they don't like are Sith so they have an excuse to round them up and imprison them).
Oh, I'd bet someone out there is. There are people still insisting that the world is a flat disc. With 7 billion of us on the planet, there are bound to be a few. And if you find them, you won't be able to change their minds, either. But this is beside the point. The majority of NORMAL humans do not confuse myth with reality. They are capable of interpreting myth to reveal truths about reality that are deeper and more meaningful to them than the physics of it.
All too often, believing in a literal interpretation of the Bible leads to contradictions with what we know of reality. The Bible says one thing (earth is 6000 years old) and reality says another thing (the world is billions of years old). They can't both be true.
Confusing fiction with reality is problematic, I agree. But it's not a particularly religious problem. It's a human problem.
Why are you twisting my words into a strawman, claiming that I have a problem with people using the religious stories as a way to explore meanings and ideas and concepts? I do not. I have a problem with people putting forward the Bible as FACT because it requires those people to deny reality.
Well, I think you should get over it, because you aren't going to stop them, or change their minds using evidence or reason, they've already rejected that. And they have a right to believe whatever they want, anyway.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Very few people actually believe those stories are historically factual, though, even among theists. They have simply "suspend disbelief" as we all do with all kinds of literary fiction, for the sake of the conceptual rewards that such fiction offers us. And people wanting the law of the land to reflect their values is commonplace among a great many of us, theists and non-theists, alike. So even though I may not agree with how others have chosen to interpret and value the insights of the literature they read, including religious myth, I see no basis upon which to presume to 'correct' them. Also, I don't see the value in trying to challenge people who reject both reason or evidence as their criteria for conceptualizing reality. What do you propose to challenge them, with? I understand your thinking that they are wrong to assume that myths are reality, but I don't see how you can stop them from doing so.

I've seen a lot of people who do indeed believe that the tales told in the Bible are indeed 100% literal truth.

It says so right at the beginning of the film! And I assume in the beginning of the book as well.

Please, an ancient text written by who knows? And how are we meant to check the claim? And can you show me a single person who believes it?

Oh, I'd bet someone out there is. There are people still insisting that the world is a flat disc. With 7 billion of us on the planet, there are bound to be a few. And if you find them, you won't be able to change their minds, either. But this is beside the point. The majority of NORMAL humans do not confuse myth with reality. They are capable of interpreting myth to reveal truths about reality that are deeper and more meaningful to them than the physics of it.

I fear you are mistaken.

Confusing fiction with reality is problematic, I agree. But it's not a particularly religious problem. It's a human problem.

The trouble is that religion provides the fictitious stories AND the insistence that people believe that it is real.

Well, I think you should get over it, because you aren't going to stop them, or change their minds using evidence or reason, they've already rejected that. And they have a right to believe whatever they want, anyway.

Why should I get over it when these are the people insisting that their religion is used as the basis for the laws I am governed by? When religious institutions have so much wealth and power they can cover up the crimes of those who sexually assault children? When people who do not share the religious views of the minority are viewed with mistrust, or even executed in some countries? I don't have a problem with them believing what they want, but when they start insisting that others lives by their religious requirements, when children are denied proper educations because it contradicts their old fables, when women are denied important life-saving healthcare, I most certainly have a problem with it, and I will not get over it.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I've seen a lot of people who do indeed believe that the tales told in the Bible are indeed 100% literal truth.

The trouble is that religion provides the fictitious stories AND the insistence that people believe that it is real.
Only a small fraction of religious expression does this. Yet you seem to be characterizing all religious expression as similarly dogmatic and irrational. This is the very definition of an unfair and irrational bias.
Why should I get over it when these are the people insisting that their religion is used as the basis for the laws I am governed by?
Very few people are actually insisting on this. And you are not in charge of what other people believe. Your moral values are your own, as are everyone else's. How do you propose to protect your rights when you are insisting on denying theirs? This is a human dilemma that transcends religion by a long way. One that mankind is still struggling to work out.
When religious institutions have so much wealth and power they can cover up the crimes of those who sexually assault children? When people who do not share the religious views of the minority are viewed with mistrust, or even executed in some countries? I don't have a problem with them believing what they want, but when they start insisting that others lives by their religious requirements, when children are denied proper educations because it contradicts their old fables, when women are denied important life-saving healthcare, I most certainly have a problem with it, and I will not get over it.
Again, you can't seem to see past your anti-religious bias. ALL organized institutions that accumulate great wealth and power become corrupted by it. Their proclaimed ideology and purpose is pretty much irrelevant when their behavior is clearly selfish and predatory.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
But not Atheism.
Doesn't m,ean we needed a god to tell us this - all throughout history, members of any particular religion have had at least some people who hated them for it.
People have been claiming Jesus' return is imminent for about 2000 years.
No, that's not vague at all...
You really don't understand what religion means...
I mean, you agreed with me about my list of things that religion has: holy texts, holy men, rituals and ceremonies, gathering places, observance of important days, and so on. You even said it sounds like organised AND un-organised religions.
So, let's say a person puts gambling first. What are the gambling holy texts? Can you give me the gambling version of any of those things? Of course not, because gambling is not a religion.

Gambling in a sense could be a 'form of worship' if gambling is what is put first in a person's life.
People making claims for about 2,000 years does Not make the Bible as wrong, it just makes those people's calculations or guesses as wrong.
As time marches on biblical light grows lighter and brighter until the perfect day - Proverbs 4:18
That would be the ' full daylight ', so to speak of Jesus coming 'millennium-long day' of governing over Earth.
Daniel placed what he wrote at Daniel 12:4; Daniel 12:9 in our time frame.
Now then is the time, more than ever before, that people Not only travel to and fro in literal travel, but travel or rove to and fro between the pages of Scripture as never before in history, thus fulfilling that the good news of God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 is Now proclaimed on an international scale as never before in history just as Jesus said at Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Again, you can't seem to see past your anti-religious bias. ALL organized institutions that accumulate great wealth and power become corrupted by it. Their proclaimed ideology and purpose is pretty much irrelevant when their behavior is clearly selfish and predatory.

I find the amount of wealth the predatory clergy have amassed could end up looking easy for their taking by the political world, especially if the economy turns bad.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
It is the logical conclusion, no god required.......

Yes, as everything stands now the logical conclusion is: everything dies.
What we learn from the Bible is the time is coming when ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth.
- 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8 - there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations as per Revelation 22:2.
I realize the world does Not believe such good times are coming.
However, as the old adage goes ' it is darkest before the dawn '.
The coming darkness is the coming great tribulation when the political world turns on the religious before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will be the one who will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
In other words, divine involvement is required as we shall see as the world scene escalates.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
However, if they really wanted peace on God's terms aka Golden Rule, then there would be Peace on Earth.
And that rule (phrased my own way, of course, as "do not do to others what you would not have done to yourself") is one that I, who do believe in God, live by. And strangely, I'm at peace with everyone, and uninterested in making them into characters in my personal story.

But I put it to you, do you think that people like Christian Missionaries, or Muslim Jihadists, or street-corner shills for Jesus are all really obeying the Golden Rule? How many of them would admit to wishing somebody would come along and try to change their religious beliefs, take away their faiths, their cultures, and their comforts? And yet, is that not precisely what they are actively doing?

Is that not hypocrisy, and does hypocrisy of that nature really lead naturally to everybody "getting along?"
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
And that rule (phrased my own way, of course, as "do not do to others what you would not have done to yourself") is one that I, who do believe in God, live by. And strangely, I'm at peace with everyone, and uninterested in making them into characters in my personal story.
But I put it to you, do you think that people like Christian Missionaries, or Muslim Jihadists, or street-corner shills for Jesus are all really obeying the Golden Rule? How many of them would admit to wishing somebody would come along and try to change their religious beliefs, take away their faiths, their cultures, and their comforts? And yet, is that not precisely what they are actively doing?
Is that not hypocrisy, and does hypocrisy of that nature really lead naturally to everybody "getting along?"

Even the religious leaders of Jesus' day were hypocrites as per Matthew 15:9 and the 23rd chapter of Matthew.
What those religious leaders taught was separating people, Not getting everybody ' getting along '.
'So-called missionaries', etc. are part of the MANY Jesus warned against at Matthew 7:21-23.
The 'Jesus' Story ' is Not about characters in one's personal story.
Jesus wants No one to loose their eternal life, but wants everyone to live.
Live by his New commandment of John 13:34-35 to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
In other words we are now to love neighbor 'more' than self.
That will Not be the case for the wicked because the 'wicked will be destroyed forever' - Psalms 92:7
That warning is sounded out so that No one can say they did Not know that being wicked would lead to their everlasting destruction.
 
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