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THE WALL !!!

Ellen Brown

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
So you admit that it was all their fault. If the leaders of those countries had given the U.S. what the military/industrial complex wanted we would not have needed to get rid of their governments. In the same way the Democrats should roll over and play dead.

Ooh, I like that. No thought at all is needed to be a Trump supporter.
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Classic example is Iran. After WWII, Iran got their own leader, then the West removed him and put in the Despot Shah. Iranians were not happy so held a revolution and put in their own Despot, the Iatola Kumany. Now no one is happy but the Despots, and they have all the power.
 
sun rise

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Mindmaster said:
It's still, "you build the wall", or you, "pay for a carp-ton more people to patrol". The wall is always cheaper than people. So, with that in mind, I say wall away.
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That's not what the agency charged with the border says. They need people and sensors otherwise people will tunnel under, fly over, take to the seas and get through.

Besides which there are fewer and fewer people coming in illegally. Except in the minds of those who have swallowed lies whole.
 
Ellen Brown

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
sun rise said:
That's not what the agency charged with the border says. They need people and sensors otherwise people will tunnel under, fly over, take to the seas and get through.

Besides which there are fewer and fewer people coming in illegally. Except in the minds of those who have swallowed lies whole.
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Someone just said that most illegal Aliens come from Asia. I can not find the source.
 
Mindmaster

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
LuisDantas said:
There can be no consensus on the best solution to a problem that is being presented under a heavy guise of fiction in the first place.

Trump insists that "the wall" would somehow help solve a number of problems, but in so doing he is happily going around the facts regarding those problems.
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With that in regard, realize no solution is perfect. However, the wall isn't just about keeping out Mexicans. Illegals are coming from many other countries south of the border, they just happen to be mostly crossing Mexico to get to us. Maybe, we should help Mexico build a wall on their southern border instead. :D

Personally, I think a wall is reasonable because it's non-violent. The alternatives are continuing to lock up and detain, or up the ante with actual weapon use or tear gas, , etc. In light of that, the wall is the least harmful way to deter and limit the problem.

I think most of the people against the wall don't realize it's their money, and their children's and even their children's children's money going out the window to the illegals. Maybe, you don't mind giving your money away, but I do. I pay my taxes to help my country men and women, not provide supplemental welfare for someone else's. Whatever the wall costs, it's less than the social services strain caused by the theft by illegals. (And, it is theft, because none of us said it was O.K. to give them our money.)
 
Shad

Shad

Veteran Member
Ellen Brown said:
Something that has been largely absent from the commentary about "Himself's" Wall is that they don't and haven't ever worked. Hadrian's wall, The Berlin Wall, and China's Great Wall did not work. People just went around or under them.
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Deterrence vs stopping purpose. You are projecting your idea of "use of" but not usefulness of nor actual use by the people that made each. Also take a look at the circumstances of the failures. Your argument has no merit.

Apply your argument to prison.
 
Ellen Brown

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Shad said:
Deterrence vs stopping purpose. You are projecting your idea of "use of" but not usefulness of nor actual use by the people that made each. Also take a look at the circumstances of the failures. Your argument has no merit.

Apply your argument to prison.
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And Prisons are mostly useless and over used. We can than Reagan for that.
 
LuisDantas

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Mindmaster said:
With that in regard, realize no solution is perfect.
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All the more so when, as I pointed out, the problem is a fearmongering, populist fantasy to promise a quick, reassuring totalitarian, catartic fix for the enablers of tyranny and abuse.

There can be no solution in a system that needs continuous fear to survive.
 
Ellen Brown

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
LuisDantas said:
All the more so when, as I pointed out, the problem is a fearmongering, populist fantasy to promise a quick, reassuring totalitarian, catartic fix for the enablers of tyranny and abuse.

There can be no solution in a system that needs continuous fear to survive.
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That would be Trump and his minions.
 
Notanumber

Notanumber

A Free Man
Ellen Brown said:
Something that has been largely absent from the commentary about "Himself's" Wall is that they don't and haven't ever worked. Hadrian's wall, The Berlin Wall, and China's Great Wall did not work. People just went around or under them.

OR, perhaps better relationships with Mexico and the rest of Central America and South America? OH, but they don't trust America you say? Whose fault is that, would you guess? I just heard that there are Methamphetamines coming from Vietnam. And, perhaps some very hard work on substance dependencies? Sorry to say this but it all comes right back onto Americans who need to grow up!

Oh, but there is far too much money for the rich to make by confining offenders, lamely counselling offenders, and doing all the things that produce revenue but don't dry the demand up.

RANT OFF!
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This must be the exception that breaks the rule.

Hungarian border barrier - Wikipedia
 
Mindmaster

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
LuisDantas said:
All the more so when, as I pointed out, the problem is a fearmongering, populist fantasy to promise a quick, reassuring totalitarian, catartic fix for the enablers of tyranny and abuse.

There can be no solution in a system that needs continuous fear to survive.
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But, fear is natural when it is perceived your survival is threatened. It's even justified.

If someone can explain how the flood of unchecked illegal immigration is helping our country mathematically, I'm down with it. But, currently, that's a joke. Illegals cost this country 150 billion a year and any supposed contributions from that element are always stated in millions. I don't hate these people, but I don't fail at basic math.

Where I am at:

1) Illegals drive down wages. If you are flooded with cheap labor all wages go down, cost of living doesn't necessarily track. No one in their right mind wants this.

2) Come from countries with much higher crime rates, and Hispanics as a whole contribute more crime (2nd only to African-Americans). It doesn't make an argument to make it easier for countries south of the border to come in. Xenophobia excluded, this is just math. Importing masses from the south of the border will always increase your crime levels locally, period. Despite this comment, I am perfectly happy with anyone Hispanic that goes through the process of legally immigrating -- they're putting forth the effort, and I have a great deal of respect for that. Fence jumpers are just thieves, I have no use for them.

3) There is no humanitarian aspect, even if we take them we force them to live on life support thousands of miles away from their relations to get our table scraps. It'd be kinder to use our influence and power to assist them in righting their own countries.

4) Self-loathing and white knighting are not arguments. Just because denying them entry feels bad to someone doesn't mean we should allow them in. We don't live in a Utopian future world where people don't have cultural or tribal negatives that we don't have to consider. It's far easier to deal with the problem at the door than once they get in.

5) It's not totalitarian to look out for your countries people first, in fact that is the duty of government, period. I see absolutely no way that illegals contribute more than they cost, in terms of social welfare, criminality, and so on.
 
LuisDantas

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Mindmaster said:
But, fear is natural when it is perceived your survival is threatened. It's even justified.

If someone can explain how the flood of unchecked illegal immigration is helping our country mathematically, I'm down with it. But, currently, that's a joke. Illegals cost this country 150 billion a year and any supposed contributions from that element are always stated in millions. I don't hate these people, but I don't fail at basic math.

Where I am at:

1) Illegals drive down wages. If you are flooded with cheap labor all wages go down, cost of living doesn't necessarily track. No one in their right mind wants this.

2) Come from countries with much higher crime rates, and Hispanics as a whole contribute more crime (2nd only to African-Americans). It doesn't make an argument to make it easier for countries south of the border to come in. Xenophobia excluded, this is just math. Importing masses from the south of the border will always increase your crime levels locally, period. Despite this comment, I am perfectly happy with anyone Hispanic that goes through the process of legally immigrating -- they're putting forth the effort, and I have a great deal of respect for that. Fence jumpers are just thieves, I have no use for them.

3) There is no humanitarian aspect, even if we take them we force them to live on life support thousands of miles away from their relations to get our table scraps. It'd be kinder to use our influence and power to assist them in righting their own countries.

4) Self-loathing and white knighting are not arguments. Just because denying them entry feels bad to someone doesn't mean we should allow them in. We don't live in a Utopian future world where people don't have cultural or tribal negatives that we don't have to consider. It's far easier to deal with the problem at the door than once they get in.

5) It's not totalitarian to look out for your countries people first, in fact that is the duty of government, period. I see absolutely no way that illegals contribute more than they cost, in terms of social welfare, criminality, and so on.
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Boy, I would not give a rusty penny for such ideas.

They are not worth the time I spent skimming over them.
 
Dell

Dell

Asteroid insurance?
LuisDantas said:
Boy, I would not give a rusty penny for such ideas.

They are not worth the time I spent skimming over them.
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Having lived in deep south Texas and now Oklahoma, I see first hand the problems with illegal immigration. Crimes from murder and rape to uninsured motorist, fraud, shoplifting are a huge problem in Texas and Oklahoma. I know families that have been affected by this.

The U.S. has 20 B2 bombers at 2 billion a piece. Figure maintenance, flight, training, and manpower the cost is enormous verses its actual use and bang for the buck. We are paying an enormous price for national security by science of military advantage. The wall is very similar, it's a high priced tool for national security and done right should be effective against land crossings, funneling illegals to more obvious crossing attempts by water or air. And hopefully dismantled someday like the B2 fleet obviously will be when its purpose is no longer required or replaced by something more effective.

It seems to be the best peaceable solution for problems dealing with foreign border crossings by criminals or desperate people. I don't see anybody else having a better less costly solution, but offer politics only. If we chose to handle criminals and illegals as Mexico does our news media, irresponsible liberal population, and Mexicans living in the south would riot..
 
Bob the Unbeliever

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Dell said:
Having lived in deep south Texas and now Oklahoma, I see first hand the problems with illegal immigration. Crimes from murder and rape to uninsured motorist, fraud, shoplifting are a huge problem in Texas and Oklahoma. I know families that have been affected by this.
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Citation Needed. I live in Oklahoma-- and the shoplifting issue? Mostly comes from poor people who are legally born here.

Same for uninsured drivers: poor, who cannot afford insurance, because they work 2 or 3 "McJobs" that pay below poverty wages.

RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE? And *poof* like MAGIC, most of these crimes you whine about, simply dissappear...

We have actual statistics that prove this is true: Communities that have raised the minimum wage? Suffer lower crime rates.... !

WHO KNEW?

(well, most Progressive thinkers knew... but apparently NO conservatives did-- they still think that "trickle down" works.... in spite of 30 years of PROOF THAT IT DOES NOT)
 
Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Ellen Brown said:
Something that has been largely absent from the commentary about "Himself's" Wall is that they don't and haven't ever worked. Hadrian's wall, The Berlin Wall, and China's Great Wall did not work. People just went around or under them.

OR, perhaps better relationships with Mexico and the rest of Central America and South America? OH, but they don't trust America you say? Whose fault is that, would you guess? I just heard that there are Methamphetamines coming from Vietnam. And, perhaps some very hard work on substance dependencies? Sorry to say this but it all comes right back onto Americans who need to grow up!

Oh, but there is far too much money for the rich to make by confining offenders, lamely counselling offenders, and doing all the things that produce revenue but don't dry the demand up.

RANT OFF!
Click to expand...
Walls of course aren't always people proof but they certainly do work. History has proven that sufficiently enough.
 
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