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What exactly do Baha'is mean by "Independent Investigation of the Truth"?

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
I thought the topic was 'What Baha'is mean by independent investigation of truth'. You ask me how I could investigate Baha'u'llah's claims without having access to all His works in English. I explained, so no deviation. If you don't want to answer my questions that's fine but don't project your avoidance on to me.

I had never heard to the Bab's letter of repentence on page 9 of the book 'Twelve Principles' you linked in the other thread. I'm sure if I had time to read all 602 pages of this Iranian anti-Baha'i ptolemic I would find a few more.

https://ia802504.us.archive.org/29/items/TwelvePrinciples/Twelve Principles - A Comprehensive Investigation on the Bahai Teachings.pdf

That is from Edward Browne's book called The Babi religion, p. 258 that you can read online here.

And I am sure that contrary to your you claim, it has been seen by numerous Baha'is; but that's not enough. You have to provide me with the name of some more works that no Baha'i has ever heard of.
 
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spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
A lot of translations are by Shoghi Effendi and we believe He is the interpreter of the Word of God after Abdu'l-Baha. Because he is the Interpreter he knows what the scripture means and thus can translate it correctly as far as it can be translated correctly. The Universal House of Justice's translators consult Shoghi Effendi's translations for their translations. We have confidence in the translations. In addition, all of the major themes of Baha'u'llah have been translated.

Shoghi effendi was far from what you have described I will only show you one statement where he sounds helpless while trying to translate one of Baha'u'llah's problematic claims:

“We must not take this statement too literally; "contemporary" may have been meant in Persian as something far more elastic than the English word. Likewise, the whole translation probably needs revising (15 February 1947).” (Article titled Socrates compiled by the Research Department of the Universal House of Justice: http://bahai-library.com/compilation_socrates_bwc)

If Shoghi is what you claim he wouldn't have used words like "may" and "probably" when trying to translate a simple statement. He believes his own translations "probably" need revising but he can't make up his mind! I don't call this interpretation and knowing the meanings of the words of God.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
That is from Edward Browne's book called The Babi religion, p. 258 that you can read online here.

And I am sure that contrary to your you claim, it has been seen by numerous Baha'is; but that's not enough. You have to provide me with the name of some more works that no Baha'i has ever heard of.

OK, I accept some Baha'is have heard of it.

So this alleged recantation is described by Edward Browne.

The second document, unsigned and undated, is apparently in the Báb's handwriting and consists of a complete recantation and renunciation of any superhuman claim which he may have advanced or have appeared to advance. There is nothing to show to whom it is addressed, or whether it is the recantation referred to in the last paragraph of the preceding document or another. The handwriting, though graceful, is not easily legible, and the text appears to run as follows:

Materials for the Study of the Babi Religion

So we really have no way of knowing who wrote it.
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
OK, I accept some Baha'is have heard of it.

So this alleged recantation is described by Edward Browne.

The second document, unsigned and undated, is apparently in the Báb's handwriting and consists of a complete recantation and renunciation of any superhuman claim which he may have advanced or have appeared to advance. There is nothing to show to whom it is addressed, or whether it is the recantation referred to in the last paragraph of the preceding document or another. The handwriting, though graceful, is not easily legible, and the text appears to run as follows:

Materials for the Study of the Babi Religion

So we really have no way of knowing who wrote it.

Except for the fact that it is in the Bab's own handwriting. But i'd still love to see some more works that no Baha'i has heard of.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Except for the fact that it is in the Bab's own handwriting. But i'd still love to see some more works that no Baha'i has heard of.

The hand writing was not easily legible. It may have been forged.

Besides, it was based on a photograph of a document provided to Edward Grandville 64 years after the Bab allegedly wrote it.
 

Sen McGlinn

Member
Baha'is claim that their leader has put forward a new principle that no one had thought of before them:

"Another new principle revealed by Baha’u’llah is the injunction to investigate truth—...." , The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 454)
Ok, we get the point. We shouldn't blindly imitate the beliefs of other people and their claims instead we should independently find the truth ourselves. So far so good, but I'm pretty sure this isn't a new principle.

The quote in the OP is not an authentic source. However, to answer the OP question, I would say that the first thing that the investigation of truth entails for a Bahai, is not taking somebody else's word for it, but checking sources for oneself so far as one is able. That does not give any assurance of having got "the truth", because religious truth is relative and one's ability and sources available are limited. But it does mean that it becomes YOUR truth and not a hand-me-down from someone else. And because it's your truth, it means you must be modest about its validity and tolerant of others.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
@Sunstone you are dead right, the Buddha taught this principle more than two millennia before Baha'u'llah.

Since the Bab and Baha'u'llah lived after the European Renaissance, Scientific Revolution and Enlightenment, their ministries took place at a time when the majority of educated Westerners were staunch advocates of the independent investigation of truth already. Secular Muslim theorists in Turkey were also trying to promote it in their efforts to liberalise the Ottoman Empire. As such, it wouldn't have been a very revolutionary idea at all for Baha'u'llah to preach, at least in the West (although it would have been in his own native Persia, certainly).

But to be a bit pedantic, the ancient Greeks arguably beat Siddhartha Gautama to the punch on this. Thales, in the 7th century BCE, was the first to probe the natural world and come up with assumptions not rooted in ancestral knowledge and inherited traditions. The Socratic philosophers followed in his wake with their systems.

Socrates himself was a vociferous advocate of free thought, unmoored from inherited dogmatism.

The Athenian assembly executed him in 399 BC (well compelled him to poison himself with hemlock, to be specific) because he had committed the crime of asebeia: “failing to acknowledge the gods that the city acknowledges” and “introducing new deities”. Diopeithes’ decree went as follows:


"...Socrates commits a crime in not recognising the gods the state recognises, and introducing other, new divine powers instead. He also commits a crime by corrupting the young..."

In other words, he questioned the traditions of the elders and threatened the established, time-honoured consensus.

Jesus, can be added to the list as another advocate of this principle.

He didn't just "blindly" read the Torah and rely on Jewish scripture, tradition, other received wisdom, and authority. Rather, he encouraged people to depart from the outmoded way of thinking of their ancestors and a literal interpretation of scriptural precepts, and embrace "a better way of thinking about and treating people":


Matthew 5:38 - 43

You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.

You have heard that it was said [to our ancestors], ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"

Jesus instructed his audience to stop thinking in terms of the "received wisdom" of their ancestors, as one scholar notes:


The Sermon on the Mount


Jesus was well aware that much of what he was going to say would be in fundamental contradiction to what the masses had been taught. He recognized that there would be a chasm, an incompatibility, between the prevailing orthodoxy (either popular, clerical, or both) that they had been raised in and that which he was advocating (Mt. 9:16, for example).


Indeed, he plainly told his audience that they already possessed the ability to make their own value judgments about his ministry, and that they shouldn't look for divine signs in the heavens to validate it:


Luke 12:57

“And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?"


That is a literal Greek translation of this verse:

GRK Δια τι δε και αφ' εαυτων δεν κρινετε το δικαιον

This is not an appeal to authority or sacred writ but to common sense, conscience and rational judgement. One commentator, for instance, transliterates the meaning of this injunction as follows: "Why, even without signs, do you not judge rightly of me and of my doctrine by the natural light of reason and of conscience?" (J. R. Dummelow, op. cit., p. 755).

Professor John P. Meier, the esteemed American biblical scholar and historical Jesus researcher, explained in his book series, The Marginal Jew how:


"...His teaching evinced a style and content that did not jibe with the views and practices of the major Jewish religious groups of his day...

By the time he died, Jesus had managed to make himself appear obnoxious, dangerous, or suspicious to everyone, from pious Pharisees through political high priests to an ever vigilant Pilate. One reason Jesus met a swift and brutal end is simple: he alienated so many individuals and groups in Palestine that, when the final clash came in Jerusalem in 30 AD, he had very few people, especially people of influence, on his side.


The political marginality of this poor layman from the Galilean countryside with disturbing doctrines and claims was because he was dangerously anti-establishment and lacked a proper base in the capital..."(Powell, 130-133)


But, in some ways, I think the biggest step forward made with this idea was in the middle ages, when scholastics like St. Albertus Magnus applied it to the emerging field of empirical science (ancient Greek science hadn't been empirical).

In De Mineralibus Saint Albertus Magnus (1206–1280), the teacher of Saint Thomas Aquinas and forefather of scholasticism, known as the "Universal Doctor", wrote:-


The aim of natural science is not simply to accept the statements of others, but to investigate the causes that are at work in nature. In studying nature we have not to inquire how God the Creator may, as He freely wills, use His creatures to work miracles and thereby show forth His power: we have rather to inquire what Nature with its immanent causes can naturally bring to pass [i.e. according to the Creator's laws, mathematical order]

As the Stanford Encyclopedia explains about these medieval churchmen:


Scientific Method (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)


During the medieval period, figures such as Albertus Magnus (1206–1280), Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274), Robert Grosseteste (1175–1253), Roger Bacon (1214/1220–1292), William of Ockham (1287–1347), Andreas Vesalius (1514–1546), Giacomo Zabarella (1533–1589) all worked to clarify the kind of knowledge which could be obtained by observation and induction, the source of justification of induction, and the best rules for its application.[2] Many of their contributions we now think of as essential to science (see also Laudan 1968)...

During the Scientific Revolution these various strands of argument, experiment, and reason were forged into a dominant epistemic authority...The Book of Nature, according to the metaphor of Galileo Galilei (1564–1642) or Francis Bacon (1561–1626), was written in the language of mathematics, of geometry and number. This motivated an emphasis on mathematical description and mechanical explanation as important aspects of scientific method.


I really don't understand how any specific belief system could make a claim of intellectual ownership over this idea, least of all one originating in the mid-nineteenth century (no disrespect intended to Abdu'l-Baha). It seems a rather incredulous notion to me.

If we were to take the statement at face value, it is ignoring or apparently unaware that Thales, Socrates, the Buddha, Jesus, St. Albertus Magnus and many other great thinkers taught variations of this idea. The list would be very long indeed if I actually attempted to reference every thinker down the ages who has mooted or toyed with the principle.
 
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spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
The quote in the OP is not an authentic source.

I view this statement extremely hypocritical. Baha'i have been publishing and propagating that book for nearly a century now. It is on the official Baha'i library and many of the UHJ's letters use it as their source. If it is not authentic then Baha'is should cease to use it for their propaganda. I see double standards being practiced here.
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
You mean the Will and Testament that was found in Abdu'l-Baha's own safe, still sealed?

As far as I am concerned Abdu'l-Baha never had a will in the first place. You see, at least we have a photograph of the Bab's repentance in his own handwriting but what do we have of Abdu'l-Baha's will? Nothing. Just a typed document provided by the UHJ claiming it is Abdu'l-Baha's will. First provide us with a copy of Abdu'l-Baha's will if it exists then we'll decide if it was found sealed in his own safe.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yeah, Tony, we know Browne was impressed by Baha'u'llah - any other "independent" witnesses? Or has your independent investigation uncovered only "one such example" after all these years?

You can read about the Funerals of both Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha. That should suffice.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As far as I am concerned Abdu'l-Baha never had a will in the first place. You see, at least we have a photograph of the Bab's repentance in his own handwriting but what do we have of Abdu'l-Baha's will? Nothing. Just a typed document provided by the UHJ claiming it is Abdu'l-Baha's will. First provide us with a copy of Abdu'l-Baha's will if it exists then we'll decide if it was found sealed in his own safe.

This was not even challenged by the Persians hostile to the Faith.

Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Bahá - Wikipedia

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Surely you are not suggesting that eulogies should be the foundation of an independent investigation of truth?

No but it helps to know the respect they had.

Just about to fly to Hong Kong from Melbourne, then on to Israel...stay happy now

Regards Tony
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
1. So how do we arrive at any conclusion? Must we read every Tablet Baha’u’llah has ever written? Must one in fact know everything there is to know to be able to know truth?

My humble understanding of Independent investigation of truth is that it is a spiritual principle. Jesus said that only the pure in heart would see God. We need spiritual eyes and perception to see the truth not just Book learning. Otherwise how did the disciples of Buddha or Jesus know their master was true? They had no formal education whatsoever.

A pure heart may see and know God without having read anything. Tahirih accepted the Bab in a dream so pure she was. The followers of all the Prophets were simple uneducated but pure in heart.

What do we need most today than the teaching that we should love all humanity, universal harmony & cooperation and to consider all as inhabitants of one earth? That we all need to be as family. That religions need to become friends and well wishers?

What new things did Baha’u’llah bring?

Many of the teachings Baha’u’llah brought are new religious laws for today. They are new because they are in the form of laws. The laws of marriage it’s vows and conditions are all laid down in writing by His Own Pen.

He brought an infallible Institution into the world which the Christians call the Kingdom of God on earth. He was the first Prophet to abolish slavery and make it a religious law.

For the first time things like work and education have become actual law in a Holy Book.

Universal education is a religious law in the Bahai Faith. Mixing with other religions in a spirit of friendliness is a law of the Bahai Faith not just a nice saying or a platitude.

If you go through the Most Holy Book you will find that things which might be mentioned in the past are now a binding religious law. Priesthood and holy war are officially abolished in this legal document. The definition of belief as a Twin curt to obey and believe is new and one not acceptable without the other. Inheritance laws. Music and what kind of music to listen to uplift the soul and what kind is harmful.

No religion has so many clearly defined laws as defined by the Prophet Himself in writing. Many of the current laws of many Faiths were made up by the clergy. Christmas and the sacraments and rituals were not specific laws inculcated by Christ but later introduced by Christians.

No religion in human history has officially founded an infallible Institution. The pope declared himself infallible not Jesus. There is no infallible guidance given to humanity through the current religions as they were never given clear successorship from their Prophet.

For the very first time in human history a Manifestation of God has in His Own Handwriting clearly and unambiguously delegated and delineated the election, functions and powers of an infallible Institution invested by God with infallibility. It cannot err nor become corrupted.

While human institutions daily become invested and corrupted from the Olympic committee to banks to governments, where do we see this in the Universal House of Justice? We see a peaceful worldwide Bahai community working in unison and harmony to try and build a spiritual and happy world based on tolerance and love. Where are our wars? Where is our corruption, our community is one not fragmented into thousands of sects. We speak with one voice. Which religion speaks with one voice today? Do you know of any? Who speaks for Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or any of the major religions? Which sect is the true one?

There is only one Bahai worldwide community at peace with itself and the world and working for the betterment of humanity.

I think that some like me think it just sounds too good to be true. I thought that at first so spent years trying to find fault with this Faith, no human is perfect that’s fair but however much I tried to prove this was fake and a phony conglomeration of ideas stolen from other religions and traditions, I got the shock of my life to discover another revelation from God had been sent down to humanity by God offering a better way and I could deny no longer as to do so would be to lie to myself.

Hopefully your own investigation has not ended and I think you should continue to oppose more and more to prove either way. If you are thoroughly convinced of our falsehood I think you’ve made an extremely weak argument as there are spiritual conditions that the seeker needs to meet not just language and if you are maintaining that no one could have investigated the Faith without knowing Persian and Arabic then you’ve obviously not taken into account that the pure in heart do not need a masters degree to know God when we see Him. We are all born with the instinct or capacity to know God and His Manifestations and I clearly see God in this revelation without any knowledge of Persian or Arabic. Knowledge of the language of the heart and spirit more than suffice in finding truth.

“Only heart to heart can speak the bliss of mystic knowers;
No messenger can tell it and no missive bear it.

The Seven Valleys, The Four Valleys
Bahá’u’lláh


But you should continue to follow your heart in this matter
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Baha'is claim that their leader has put forward a new principle that no one had thought of before them:

"Another new principle revealed by Baha’u’llah is the injunction to investigate truth—that is to say, no man should blindly follow his ancestors and forefathers. Nay, each must see with his own eyes, hear with his own ears and investigate the truth himself in order that he may follow the truth instead of blind acquiescence and imitation of ancestral beliefs." (Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 454)
Hi.......
It's Double-Think.
Just like Orwell's 'Big Brother' culture, Bahai says one thing, does another.
Bahauallah said something about the Universal House of Justice never able to be wrong, even if it decideds that left-is-right or up-is-down.... or something similar to that. Bahais need to believe and do what they are told to.

So this the Question, what exactly do you mean by the "Independent Investigation of the Truth" when you don't practice it yourselves and accuse those that practice it of distorting Baha'i scripture?

regards
Spirit of Dawn
Not being a Bahai I can't answer your question, but many excommunicated Bahais did 'individually investigate' and that probably led to their expulsion.
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
This was not even challenged by the Persians hostile to the Faith.

Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Bahá - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

Independent Investigation of Truth dictates that I neither believe what is written on Wikipedia nor what the UHJ claims. Now please provide us with a copy of Abdu'l-Baha's will because we know the UHJ holds the claimed original. If you don't provide us with a copy of that will then it would be fair to assume it either doesn't exist or it's a fake.
 
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