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What exactly do Baha'is mean by "Independent Investigation of the Truth"?

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Back to square One: "The will is authentic but we will show it to no one. You have to take our word for it. We call this independent investigation of the truth."

As you have continued with this lunacy, I finish this with 3 quotes and I will add no more;

"...It is interesting to note that no one who has studied the Will and Testament of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, with the exception of Mrs White and a few others whom she influenced, has ever questioned its authenticity. Even other Covenant-breakers who rose up against Shoghi Effendi did not agree with her. Ahmad Sohrab and Subhi for example, who had both served ‘Abdu’l-Bahá as His secretary, never questioned the authenticity of the Will. Neither did Muhammad-’Ali, nor Badi’u'llah nor other enemies who were looking for any excuse they could find to attack the Guardian of the Faith.

It must be remembered that the Will and Testament was in ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s handwriting and bore His seal. These were very familiar to the Persian believers because ‘Abdu’l-Bahá had written innumerable Tablets in His own hand and almost every Bahá’í family in Persia had received one or most of them. Thus, when the photostatic text of the Will and Testament was sent to Persia and elsewhere, it was easily acknowledged by everyone to be in the handwriting of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá." Adib Taherzadeh, The Child of the Covenant, p. 299

"The Cause of God must be protected from the enemies of the Faith, and from those who sow seeds of doubt in the hearts of the believers, and the greatest of all protections is knowledge: there is no doubt that the silliest of all charges ever made is that the “Will and Testament” of the Master is a forgery! It is all in His own hand, sealed in more than one place with His own seal, and was opened after His death by some members of His own family, who took it from His own safe, in this house, and from that day it has been kept in the safe under lock and key. The charges of Mrs. White were the result of an unbalanced mind. No other enemy, even those who were shrewd and clever, made this foolish accusation!" From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, The Light of Divine Guidance v I, p. 134

“…as regards the handwriting of the Will, you should know that Shoghi Effendi sent out photostatic copies of the Will not only to National Spiritual Assemblies, but also for distribution among individual believers in Persia. You should also remember that the members of the Master’s family, including his half-brother, Muhammad-’Ali, who is so strongly condemned in the Will, as well as the thousands of Persian believers who had received or studied Tablets from Him, were thoroughly familiar with the handwriting of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, and the Will is so obviously in that handwriting that no one who was qualified to judge — even those who could profit by claiming that the Will was invalid — has ever questioned its authenticity. Even believers who became bitter enemies of Shoghi Effendi after the passing of the Master, … did not question the validity of the Will. The only challenge came from Mrs. White, an American ignorant of Persian, who had the ulterior motive of trying to discredit an administration which she personally opposed. The handwriting expert whose opinion she quoted in support of her argument was also a westerner and himself stated that he could not give a final opinion without seeing the writing in the original.

“Mrs. White went as far as appealing to the civil authorities of Palestine to take legal action in the matter, a request which the British Authorities curtly refused. When, several months later, Badi’u'llah, the brother and lieutenant of the deceased arch-breaker of Bahá’u'lláh’s Covenant, approached these same authorities claiming the right to oppose the projected transfer of the remains of the Mother and Brother of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá from ‘Akká to Haifa, they categorically upheld the authority of Shoghi Effendi as the Successor of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá on the basis of their scrutiny of the Will and Testament, the validity of which Badi’u'llah did not dispute."
Universal House of Justice, quoted in The Covenant of Baha’u'llah, p. 348


Regards Tony
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
As you have continued with this lunacy, I finish this with 3 quotes and I will add no more;

"...It is interesting to note that no one who has studied the Will and Testament of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, with the exception of Mrs White and a few others whom she influenced, has ever questioned its authenticity. Even other Covenant-breakers who rose up against Shoghi Effendi did not agree with her. Ahmad Sohrab and Subhi for example, who had both served ‘Abdu’l-Bahá as His secretary, never questioned the authenticity of the Will. Neither did Muhammad-’Ali, nor Badi’u'llah nor other enemies who were looking for any excuse they could find to attack the Guardian of the Faith.

It must be remembered that the Will and Testament was in ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s handwriting and bore His seal. These were very familiar to the Persian believers because ‘Abdu’l-Bahá had written innumerable Tablets in His own hand and almost every Bahá’í family in Persia had received one or most of them. Thus, when the photostatic text of the Will and Testament was sent to Persia and elsewhere, it was easily acknowledged by everyone to be in the handwriting of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá." Adib Taherzadeh, The Child of the Covenant, p. 299

"The Cause of God must be protected from the enemies of the Faith, and from those who sow seeds of doubt in the hearts of the believers, and the greatest of all protections is knowledge: there is no doubt that the silliest of all charges ever made is that the “Will and Testament” of the Master is a forgery! It is all in His own hand, sealed in more than one place with His own seal, and was opened after His death by some members of His own family, who took it from His own safe, in this house, and from that day it has been kept in the safe under lock and key. The charges of Mrs. White were the result of an unbalanced mind. No other enemy, even those who were shrewd and clever, made this foolish accusation!" From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, The Light of Divine Guidance v I, p. 134

“…as regards the handwriting of the Will, you should know that Shoghi Effendi sent out photostatic copies of the Will not only to National Spiritual Assemblies, but also for distribution among individual believers in Persia. You should also remember that the members of the Master’s family, including his half-brother, Muhammad-’Ali, who is so strongly condemned in the Will, as well as the thousands of Persian believers who had received or studied Tablets from Him, were thoroughly familiar with the handwriting of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, and the Will is so obviously in that handwriting that no one who was qualified to judge — even those who could profit by claiming that the Will was invalid — has ever questioned its authenticity. Even believers who became bitter enemies of Shoghi Effendi after the passing of the Master, … did not question the validity of the Will. The only challenge came from Mrs. White, an American ignorant of Persian, who had the ulterior motive of trying to discredit an administration which she personally opposed. The handwriting expert whose opinion she quoted in support of her argument was also a westerner and himself stated that he could not give a final opinion without seeing the writing in the original.

“Mrs. White went as far as appealing to the civil authorities of Palestine to take legal action in the matter, a request which the British Authorities curtly refused. When, several months later, Badi’u'llah, the brother and lieutenant of the deceased arch-breaker of Bahá’u'lláh’s Covenant, approached these same authorities claiming the right to oppose the projected transfer of the remains of the Mother and Brother of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá from ‘Akká to Haifa, they categorically upheld the authority of Shoghi Effendi as the Successor of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá on the basis of their scrutiny of the Will and Testament, the validity of which Badi’u'llah did not dispute."
Universal House of Justice, quoted in The Covenant of Baha’u'llah, p. 348


Regards Tony

You claim you have nothing to fear, yet you refuse to show the will and refer to my arguments as lunacy. Suit yourself.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You claim you have nothing to fear, yet you refuse to show the will and refer to my arguments as lunacy. Suit yourself.

It is but an argument by assertion you use.

Fear :D I am ever so happy, full of joy!:hugehug:
If what you have posted to date is the best that one can come up with, I sing with joy as the wisdom of Baha'u'llah unfolds;

"...Peoples, nations, adherents of divers faiths, will jointly and successively arise to shatter its unity, to sap its force, and to degrade its holy name. They will assail not only the spirit which it inculcates, but the administration which is the channel, the instrument, the embodiment of that spirit. For as the authority with which Bahá’u’lláh has invested the future Bahá’í Commonwealth becomes more and more apparent, the fiercer shall be the challenge which from every quarter will be thrown at the verities it enshrines."

This must happen before we learn our unity. Thus bring it on, love and unity is what I desire for all people.

Peace be with you always. Regards Tony
 
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ajay0

Well-Known Member
It has nothing to do with them. The same trend can be seen in the Quran too:

"So give good news to My servants,those who listen to what is said and follow the best of it. These are the ones ˹rightly˺ guided by Allah, and these are ˹truly˺ the people of reason." (Quran, 39:17-18)​

How is this adherence to the investigative method and inquiry ! It is actually adherence to the given belief system.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
It has nothing to do with them. The same trend can be seen in the Quran too:
"So give good news to My servants,those who listen to what is said and follow the best of it. These are the ones ˹rightly˺ guided by Allah, and these are ˹truly˺ the people of reason." (Quran, 39:17-18)


Is it really about independent investigation of truth? If we look at the the preceding verses it’s not really about independent investigation at all.

Say, [O Muhammad], "Indeed, I have been commanded to worship Allah, [being] sincere to Him in religion.

And I have been commanded to be the first [among you] of the Muslims."

Say, “Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day.”

Say, “Allah [alone] do I worship, sincere to Him in my religion,

So worship what you will besides Him.” Say, “Indeed the losers are the ones who will lose themselves and their families on the Day of Resurrection. Unquestionably, That is manifest loss.”

Quran 39:12-16

So the verses have little if anything to do with independent investigation of truth. In fact we would be struggling to find a single verse in the Quran that is explicitly about independent investigation of reality. If you read the entire text of Abdul’baha’s talk, that’s the point he’s making.








 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member

Is it really about independent investigation of truth? If we look at the the preceding verses it’s not really about independent investigation at all.

Say, [O Muhammad], "Indeed, I have been commanded to worship Allah, [being] sincere to Him in religion.

And I have been commanded to be the first [among you] of the Muslims."

Say, “Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day.”

Say, “Allah [alone] do I worship, sincere to Him in my religion,

So worship what you will besides Him.” Say, “Indeed the losers are the ones who will lose themselves and their families on the Day of Resurrection. Unquestionably, That is manifest loss.”

Quran 39:12-16

So the verses have little if anything to do with independent investigation of truth. In fact we would be struggling to find a single verse in the Quran that is explicitly about independent investigation of reality. If you read the entire text of Abdul’baha’s talk, that’s the point he’s making.
This is how one investigates the truth:

"listen to what is said and follow the best of it",

you listen to different opinions and choose the best one. Oh I see, it's probably not investigating the truth unless we explicitly use the Baha'i expression: "INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF THE TRUTH".
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
This is how one investigates the truth:

"listen to what is said and follow the best of it",

you listen to different opinions and choose the best one. Oh I see, it's probably not investigating the truth unless we explicitly use the Baha'i expression: "INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF THE TRUTH".

If seen in context Muhammad is saying worship Allah and become a Muslim, with the threat of hell fire and torment if you don’t.

“Listen to what is said”, means listen to the the words of Muhammad. “Follow the best of it” means follow the Teachings of Muhammad.

So that’s not really independent investigation of truth. Any other verses from the Quran you wish to share?
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
If seen in context Muhammad is saying worship Allah and become a Muslim, with the threat of hell fire and torment if you don’t.

“Listen to what is said”, means listen to the the words of Muhammad. “Follow the best of it” means follow the Teachings of Muhammad.

So that’s not really independent investigation of truth. Any other verses from the Quran you wish to share?

Today I learned that: “Listen to what is said” is a Baha'i metaphor for "listen to the words of Muhammad" and "follow the best of it" is another Baha'i metaphor that means "follow the teachings of Muhammad". Thanks for enlightening me. So basically, no I'm not going to quote any more verses for you.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Today I learned that: “Listen to what is said” is a Baha'i metaphor for "listen to the words of Muhammad" and "follow the best of it" is another Baha'i metaphor that means "follow the teachings of Muhammad". Thanks for enlightening me. So basically, no I'm not going to quote any more verses for you.

There’s no metaphor. I’m just reading it in context of what Muhammad said. The text is clear unless you want to provide a better translation.

You’re not going to quote any more verses because any quote you provide will have exactly the same difficulty as the one you offered.

While the verses of God in the Holy Quran may have many implicit meanings, which could allude to the investigation of truth, that is not the explicit meaning of the verse you have provided. Nor will it be the explicit meaning of any verse you provide.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Today I learned that: “Listen to what is said” is a Baha'i metaphor for "listen to the words of Muhammad" and "follow the best of it" is another Baha'i metaphor that means "follow the teachings of Muhammad". Thanks for enlightening me. So basically, no I'm not going to quote any more verses for you.

So is it out of fear that you can not see the 'best of it' in the writings of Baha'u'llah? There is nothing in the Quran that is not the 'Best of it'. All the Quran was to be followed in the Dispensation of Muhammad.

Baha'u'llah brought me to Muhammad and the Quran and I now accept Muhammad was the seal of the prophets (Peace be upon Him) and the Quran is from Allah.

I also agree with Adrian as to what the surah you posted is saying and that is my personal view as well.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is how one investigates the truth:

"listen to what is said and follow the best of it",

you listen to different opinions and choose the best one. Oh I see, it's probably not investigating the truth unless we explicitly use the Baha'i expression: "INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF THE TRUTH".

The Bible before the Quran has basically the same advice, if we use that passage in isolation. So If we use your reasoning, then the Christians would have to also reject Muhammad. They would reject the Quran as they would not even consider if there was any good contained within.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast to what is good."

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So is it out of fear that you can not see the 'best of it' in the writings of Baha'u'llah? There is nothing in the Quran that is not the 'Best of it'. All the Quran was to be followed in the Dispensation of Muhammad.

Baha'u'llah brought me to Muhammad and the Quran and I now accept Muhammad was the seal of the prophets (Peace be upon Him) and the Quran is from Allah.

I also agree with Adrian as to what the surah you posted is saying and that is my personal view as well.

Regards Tony

Hi Tony,

I'm sure you are having a great time in Haifa.

If we go to the beginning of the talk that Dawn of Spirit has quoted from we have;

"I will speak to you concerning the special teachings of Bahá’u’lláh. All the divine principles announced by the tongue of the Prophets of the past are to be found in the words of Bahá’u’lláh; but in addition to these He has revealed certain new teachings which are not found in any of the sacred Books of former times. I shall mention some of them; the others, which are many in number, may be found in the Books, Tablets and Epistles written by Bahá’u’lláh—such as the Hidden Words, the Glad Tidings, the Words of Paradise, Tajallíyát, Tarazát and others. Likewise, in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas there are new teachings which cannot be found in any of the past Books or Epistles of the Prophets."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 453-457

I think by sacred books of former times Abdu'l-Baha means the Quran, Gospels, and Torah. I doubt if he is referring to the scared books of Buddhism and Hinduism as neither Baha'u'llah, nor Abdu'l-Baha specifically referenced them unlike those of our Abrahamic predecessors. So I doubt if we will find any explicit Teachings about independent investigation of truth in any of those former books, not just the Quran. We will of course find plenty about this theme amidst the works of the intellectuals of both the renaissance and Islamic Golden Age. That is in part because some of the great intellectuals of these times were able to discover the intrinsic Divine mysteries enshrined in these Holy Books of old.

But its not just Independent investigation of truth that is explicitly in the Baha'i writings and not explicitly in the sacred books of old. It is also;

- The oneness of humanity
- The need for religion to cause unity
- The need for harmony between religion and science
- The equality of men and women
- The need to eschew fanaticism and prejudice
- That Universal Peace shall be established through this religion
- Mankind should attain knowledge and acquire education
- The solution for the world's economic problems
- The establishment of Houses of Justice.
- The appointment of the Centre of the Covenant.

So these are all explicit Teachings of the Baha'i faith. Although some may be implicit in the writings of the sacred books of the past, none are explicit.

Anyway, that's the way it seems to me. You may have better insights on account of your current locality and having a heart attuned to God.:)
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hi Tony,

I'm sure you are having a great time in Haifa.

If we go to the beginning of the talk that Dawn of Spirit has quoted from we have;

"I will speak to you concerning the special teachings of Bahá’u’lláh. All the divine principles announced by the tongue of the Prophets of the past are to be found in the words of Bahá’u’lláh; but in addition to these He has revealed certain new teachings which are not found in any of the sacred Books of former times. I shall mention some of them; the others, which are many in number, may be found in the Books, Tablets and Epistles written by Bahá’u’lláh—such as the Hidden Words, the Glad Tidings, the Words of Paradise, Tajallíyát, Tarazát and others. Likewise, in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas there are new teachings which cannot be found in any of the past Books or Epistles of the Prophets."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 453-457

I think by sacred books of former times Abdu'l-Baha means the Quran, Gospels, and Torah. I doubt if he is referring to the scared books of Buddhism and Hinduism as neither Baha'u'llah, nor Abdu'l-Baha specifically referenced them unlike those of our Abrahamic predecessors. So I doubt if we will find any explicit Teachings about independent investigation of truth in any of those former books, not just the Quran. We will of course find plenty about this theme amidst the works of the intellectuals of both the renaissance and Islamic Golden Age. That is in part because some of the great intellectuals of these times were able to discover the intrinsic Divine mysteries enshrined in these Holy Books of old.

But its not just Independent investigation of truth that is explicitly in the Baha'i writings and not explicitly in the sacred books of old. It is also;

- The oneness of humanity
- The need for religion to cause unity
- The need for harmony between religion and science
- The equality of men and women
- The need to eschew fanaticism and prejudice
- That Universal Peace shall be established through this religion
- Mankind should attain knowledge and acquire education
- The solution for the world's economic problems
- The establishment of Houses of Justice.
- The appointment of the Centre of the Covenant.

So these are all explicit Teachings of the Baha'i faith. Although some may be implicit in the writings of the sacred books of the past, none are explicit.

Anyway, that's the way it seems to me. You may have better insights on account of your current locality and having a heart attuned to God.:)

I see all what you offered as sound logic. I would agree. Personally, I so much more enjoy your insights than my aussie drool. :)

On the other hand I can also envisage that as the Word of Baha'u'llah permeates the mind of man, the divide between the meanings of Scripture that were understood over 150 years ago and what is considered today, are now beginning to mingle. I see all the new refreshing teachings of this age, which were not offered directly to humanity, are contained in some way, in what was offered in the past (albeit veiled and deep within). Thus I do seem to have a passion of finding this. :D

I consider this when I read the Tablet to the Zoroastrian where he thought his questions were not answered, but Baha'u'llah said all the answers were contained in the last message. Meditation was required.

Thus I must reign in the vein imaginings ;)

It is wonderful being here Adrian. Regards Tony
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
This is how one investigates the truth:

"listen to what is said and follow the best of it",

you listen to different opinions and choose the best one. Oh I see, it's probably not investigating the truth unless we explicitly use the Baha'i expression: "INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF THE TRUTH".

Ya got that right.

I recently came upon the works of an Iranian philosopher called Abdolkarim Soroush . He stated thus...

'It is impossible to advance new theories... when you are under the influence of a particular view, or under the pressure of a particular dogma.'


'Islam, or any religion, will become totalitarian if it is made into an ideology, because that is the nature of ideologies.'


'Human beings can remain spiritual and religious while enjoying the benefits of rational administration of their affairs.'
 
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