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What exactly do Baha'is mean by "Independent Investigation of the Truth"?

Audie

Veteran Member
1. So how do we arrive at any conclusion? Must we read every Tablet Baha’u’llah has ever written? Must one in fact know everything there is to know to be able to know truth?

My humble understanding of Independent investigation of truth is that it is a spiritual principle. Jesus said that only the pure in heart would see God. We need spiritual eyes and perception to see the truth not just Book learning. Otherwise how did the disciples of Buddha or Jesus know their master was true? They had no formal education whatsoever.

A pure heart may see and know God without having read anything. Tahirih accepted the Bab in a dream so pure she was. The followers of all the Prophets were simple uneducated but pure in heart.

What do we need most today than the teaching that we should love all humanity, universal harmony & cooperation and to consider all as inhabitants of one earth? That we all need to be as family. That religions need to become friends and well wishers?

What new things did Baha’u’llah bring?

Many of the teachings Baha’u’llah brought are new religious laws for today. They are new because they are in the form of laws. The laws of marriage it’s vows and conditions are all laid down in writing by His Own Pen.

He brought an infallible Institution into the world which the Christians call the Kingdom of God on earth. He was the first Prophet to abolish slavery and make it a religious law.

For the first time things like work and education have become actual law in a Holy Book.

Universal education is a religious law in the Bahai Faith. Mixing with other religions in a spirit of friendliness is a law of the Bahai Faith not just a nice saying or a platitude.

If you go through the Most Holy Book you will find that things which might be mentioned in the past are now a binding religious law. Priesthood and holy war are officially abolished in this legal document. The definition of belief as a Twin curt to obey and believe is new and one not acceptable without the other. Inheritance laws. Music and what kind of music to listen to uplift the soul and what kind is harmful.

No religion has so many clearly defined laws as defined by the Prophet Himself in writing. Many of the current laws of many Faiths were made up by the clergy. Christmas and the sacraments and rituals were not specific laws inculcated by Christ but later introduced by Christians.

No religion in human history has officially founded an infallible Institution. The pope declared himself infallible not Jesus. There is no infallible guidance given to humanity through the current religions as they were never given clear successorship from their Prophet.

For the very first time in human history a Manifestation of God has in His Own Handwriting clearly and unambiguously delegated and delineated the election, functions and powers of an infallible Institution invested by God with infallibility. It cannot err nor become corrupted.

While human institutions daily become invested and corrupted from the Olympic committee to banks to governments, where do we see this in the Universal House of Justice? We see a peaceful worldwide Bahai community working in unison and harmony to try and build a spiritual and happy world based on tolerance and love. Where are our wars? Where is our corruption, our community is one not fragmented into thousands of sects. We speak with one voice. Which religion speaks with one voice today? Do you know of any? Who speaks for Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or any of the major religions? Which sect is the true one?

There is only one Bahai worldwide community at peace with itself and the world and working for the betterment of humanity.

I think that some like me think it just sounds too good to be true. I thought that at first so spent years trying to find fault with this Faith, no human is perfect that’s fair but however much I tried to prove this was fake and a phony conglomeration of ideas stolen from other religions and traditions, I got the shock of my life to discover another revelation from God had been sent down to humanity by God offering a better way and I could deny no longer as to do so would be to lie to myself.

Hopefully your own investigation has not ended and I think you should continue to oppose more and more to prove either way. If you are thoroughly convinced of our falsehood I think you’ve made an extremely weak argument as there are spiritual conditions that the seeker needs to meet not just language and if you are maintaining that no one could have investigated the Faith without knowing Persian and Arabic then you’ve obviously not taken into account that the pure in heart do not need a masters degree to know God when we see Him. We are all born with the instinct or capacity to know God and His Manifestations and I clearly see God in this revelation without any knowledge of Persian or Arabic. Knowledge of the language of the heart and spirit more than suffice in finding truth.

“Only heart to heart can speak the bliss of mystic knowers;
No messenger can tell it and no missive bear it.

The Seven Valleys, The Four Valleys
Bahá’u’lláh


But you should continue to follow your heart in this matter

"Jesus said only the pure in heart would see God".

I dont think this is true. Why do you say it?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Surely you are not suggesting that eulogies should be the foundation of an independent investigation of truth?
Aren't all eulogies exaggerated, or at least biased towards the positive traits of the deceased?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Independent Investigation of Truth dictates that I neither believe what is written on Wikipedia nor what the UHJ claims. Now please provide us with a copy of Abdu'l-Baha's will because we know the UHJ holds the claimed original. If you don't provide us with a copy of that will then it would be fair to assume it either doesn't exist or it's a fake.

Personally I wish you well and leave you to choose your path in that matter and how you impart justice.

I am in Hong Kong on way to Haifa. Long flights, very draining. :)

Regards Tony
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
Personally I wish you well and leave you to choose your path in that matter and how you impart justice.

I am in Hong Kong on way to Haifa. Long flights, very draining. :)

Regards Tony


Great. Since you're going to the Baha'i World Center I'll be grateful if you get a scan of Abdu'l-Baha's original will and the original manuscript of the the Book of Certitude that was dictated by Baha'u'lah and penned down by Abdu'l-Baha.

Best Wishes
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Great. Since you're going to the Baha'i World Center I'll be grateful if you get a scan of Abdu'l-Baha's original will and the original manuscript of the the Book of Certitude that was dictated by Baha'u'lah and penned down by Abdu'l-Baha.

Best Wishes

Ha ha. That is a good one.

I do not need to. I trust the Bible as well.

You can most likely send a request to the world center and ask.

Regards Tony
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Or just a quiet withdrawal from the faith. A high percentage, I bet.
Hi there!
If I have missed any of your posts I'm sorry....... been busy.... :)

We know a bit about each other, and apart from extremists nuts I don't think either of us attack any religions, but Baha'i....... oh dear, it is cloaked in deceptions, imo. It's followers just don't see it, can't see it, because as people they seem decent folks, just can't see it.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Ha ha. That is a good one.

I do not need to. I trust the Bible as well.

You can most likely send a request to the world center and ask.

Regards Tony
Hi, I hope you will enjoy your whole journey to Israel and all in between.

We are great travellers as well, you know. We go to Gravesend every boxing Day to see Mrs Badgers folks, that's a whole 35 miles up the road! :)
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Aren't all eulogies exaggerated, or at least biased towards the positive traits of the deceased?
They're really going to have to stretch it for me.
OldBadger was a, well, a...badger
And he liked worms..... And he was a , well, a bloke, and...... oh heck.......
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
They're really going to have to stretch it for me.
OldBadger was a, well, a...badger
And he liked worms..... And he was a , well, a bloke, and...... oh heck.......

I've requested no service so there won't be one for me. Just a fire.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
We know a bit about each other, and apart from extremists nuts I don't think either of us attack any religions, but Baha'i....... oh dear, it is cloaked in deceptions, imo. It's followers just don't see it, can't see it, because as people they seem decent folks, just can't see it.

What also strikes me is the total misjudgement of their audience, with the attempts at deception. Yes, you can fool ignorant people with silly things, but when you're talking to intelligent people, you need a lot more than false statistics. Sometimes I think the general consensus is that all non-Baha'is must be fools, and easily duped.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
What also strikes me is the total misjudgement of their audience, with the attempts at deception. Yes, you can fool ignorant people with silly things, but when you're talking to intelligent people, you need a lot more than false statistics. Sometimes I think the general consensus is that all non-Baha'is must be fools, and easily duped.
Yes!
I wonder if there is a kind of timeline chaingang about all this....... after so many years it might be too traumatic to 'discover' that it was all wasted, and so like fanatics everywhere they need to double and redouble their efforts in some attempt to rediscover the rapture of the original conversion?

It is totally double-think and mis-information. Every passage that I read seems to be steeped in a kind of insidious devious deception. Just rip away the rhetoric and come at what any passage actually means and all you've got is ......... deception.

On this and other forums one can meet with some odd ideas and beliefs, but they are straight even in (some of them) their frightening laws, rules and controls, but they are so blooming honest about it........ but Bahai... ? It's the only religion which I would call out against.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
scripture and what not. While those making accusations against me have no way whatsoever of judging the quotes that I provide because they lack the necessary linguistic means.

So this the Question, what exactly do you mean by the "Independent Investigation of the Truth" when you don't practice it yourselves and accuse those that practice it of distorting Baha'i scripture?

regards
Spirit of Dawn

Word games as a sleight of hand trick in a vain attempt to cover existing bias and pretend their views are objective.
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
Sometimes I think the general consensus is that all non-Baha'is must be fools, and easily duped.

That is the idea. I'll quote two statements from their suppressed scripture:

"If today, someone grasps all of the knowledge on earth but stops at the word ‘yes’ (meaning does not become a Baha’i), the Lord will not pay attention to him (ladī l-Ḥaqq madhkūr na) and he will be considered as the most ignorant amongst the people." (Baha’u’llah, Iqtidarat wa chand lauḥ digar, p. 111)​

"From now on nobody is to be called knowledgeable, except those who have decorated themselves with the garment of this New Affair (meaning those who have become Baha’is)" (Baha’u’llah, Badi`, pp. 138–139.)​
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
That is the idea. I'll quote two statements from their suppressed scripture:

"If today, someone grasps all of the knowledge on earth but stops at the word ‘yes’ (meaning does not become a Baha’i), the Lord will not pay attention to him (ladī l-Ḥaqq madhkūr na) and he will be considered as the most ignorant amongst the people." (Baha’u’llah, Iqtidarat wa chand lauḥ digar, p. 111)​

"From now on nobody is to be called knowledgeable, except those who have decorated themselves with the garment of this New Affair (meaning those who have become Baha’is)" (Baha’u’llah, Badi`, pp. 138–139.)​

Neither of these quotes are from the Baha'i writings of course.

How about...

“When asked on one occasion: “What is a Bahá’í?” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá replied: “To be a Bahá’í simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood.” On another occasion He defined a Bahá’í as “one endowed with all the perfections of man in activity.” In one of His London talks He said that a man may be a Bahá’í even if He has never heard the name of Bahá’u’lláh. He added:—
The man who lives the life according to the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is already a Bahá’í. On the other hand, a man may call himself a Bahá’í for fifty years, and if he does not live the life he is not a Bahá’í. An ugly man may call himself handsome, but he deceives no one, and a black man may call himself white, yet he deceives no one, not even himself.

One who does not know God’s Messengers, however, is like a plant growing in the shade. Although it knows not the sun, it is, nevertheless, absolutely dependent on it. The great Prophets are spirits suns, and Bahá’u’lláh is the sun of this “day” in which we live. The suns of former days have warmed and vivified the world, and had those suns not shone, the earth would not be cold and dead, but it is the sunshine of today that alone can ripen the fruits which the suns of former days have kissed into life.”

Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 71-72
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
And who are we to believe? Pro and anti both use selective quotes.

That's up to you. The Baha'i writings are available for anyone to research.

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

Having been a Baha'i for nearly 30 years, I'm familiar with what is and isn't in the writings.

I'm sure there are plenty of Baha'i communities within the state you live in if you wanted to have direct experience. You could always make use of technology to talk to one of the Baha'is here face to face.
 
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