Study of Matthew

Brickjectivity · Oct 25, 2018

metis said:
Chapter Three Overview

This is a short chapter so my overview and my take will be quite short, especially since I'm leaving on a mini-vacation tomorrow anyway. So here are the main points of interest to me:

John the Baptist preaches repentance and confession and baptizes Jesus with water.

Pharisees & Sadducees come to hear him.

Similarity with Elijah and the latter's role to announce the Messiah, plus there's similarities between Elisha and Jesus.

Jesus said that he will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire, thus a prediction of what is to happen at Pentecost.

There are a lot of phrases in this chapter that are difficult to make sense of. First of all why is it significant that John the Baptist wears a belt? Is this a bad translation of 'Ephod'? Is it something to do with symbols of Passover? I can't tell for sure at the moment. John tells the Pharisees something about a winnowing fork and separating wheat from chaff. Here, also, we see introduced something Johnthebaptist calls the 'Holy Spirit', which if we ignore modern brain training could literally be another way of saying 'Judgement' or 'Separation'. Why? Because of the context, and because of the meaning of the word 'Holy'. John tells them several ways that there is a separation coming, and some are going to be chaff and some wheat unless I misunderstand his points. So this could be what he means, but its still not clear why Matthew tells us John wears a belt. Doesn't everybody wear a belt? They do in all the Sunday School depictions.

Highly significant is that John baptizes Jesus instead of Jesus baptizing John. Nobody has touched that yet in the thread, but its opposite to what one might think. When you go to church to get baptized its usually the pastor who dunks you. You don't dunk the pastor.

Regiomontanus · Oct 25, 2018

Brickjectivity said:
There are a lot of phrases in this chapter that are difficult to make sense of. First of all why is it significant that John the Baptist wears a belt? Is this a bad translation of 'Ephod'? Is it something to do with symbols of Passover? I can't tell for sure at the moment. John tells the Pharisees something about a winnowing fork and separating wheat from chaff. Here, also, we see introduced something Johnthebaptist calls the 'Holy Spirit', which if we ignore modern brain training could literally be another way of saying 'Judgement' or 'Separation'. Why? Because of the context, and because of the meaning of the word 'Holy'. John tells them several ways that there is a separation coming, and some are going to be chaff and some wheat unless I misunderstand his points. So this could be what he means, but its still not clear why Matthew tells us John wears a belt. Doesn't everybody wear a belt? They do in all the Sunday School depictions.

Highly significant is that John baptizes Jesus instead of Jesus baptizing John. Nobody has touched that yet in the thread, but its opposite to what one might think. When you go to church to get baptized its usually the pastor who dunks you. You don't dunk the pastor.

Hello. In regards to the belt, I assume it is because, in regards to Elijah: 2 Kings 1:8

[NIV renders that : They replied, “He had a garment of hair and had a leather belt around his waist."]

Kenny · Oct 26, 2018

John = "Jehovah is a gracious giver" or "the grace of the Lord", or "the Lord has given grace";

Regardless, I find a few things interesting. IMV.

The birth of John was with great impact. Not only was Zachariah mute after being in the presence of God but did not name him after himself but gave his child the name "john"--to the surprise of those around him. And then his tongue was loosed. I am sure they had great expectation of the possibilities of what God was going to do through him.
John is baptizing which, from my understanding, isn't a practice of their times. People are flocking to "the grace of the Lord". Imagine the stir of "what is God doing?" Something "new" is about to happen as something "new" is being done
Jewish Shirhashirim Rabba, fol. 13. 3. says ``the law, they say, came from the wilderness; the tabernacle from the wilderness; the sanhedrim from the wilderness; the priesthood from the wilderness; the office of the Levites from the wilderness; the kingdom from the wilderness; and all the good gifts which God gave to Israel were from the wilderness.'' (As quoted by John Gill) -- I don't believe it is a coincidence that John the Baptist had his ministry in the wilderness
Numbers 4:3 Count all the men from thirty to fifty years of age who come to serve in the work at the tent of meeting. - Both John and Jesus started at the age of 30.

John, opening the door of the grace of God and paving the way for grace manifest (Jesus)

Kenny · Oct 26, 2018

metis said:
OK, I'll say it before @KenS does: I tried to grow up.

You are in a great position!

You must be as a little child to enter into the Kingdom of God.

Kenny · Oct 26, 2018

Regiomontanus said:
Hello. In regards to the belt, I assume it is because, in regards to Elijah: 2 Kings 1:8

[NIV renders that : They replied, “He had a garment of hair and had a leather belt around his waist."]

Great observation.

Kenny · Oct 26, 2018

Baptism of fire and water:

Babylonian Talmud:

A certain Min said to R. Abbahu: Your God is a priest, since it is written, That they take for me Terumah [wave offering].39 Now, when He had buried Moses,40 wherein did He bathe [after contact with the corpse]?41 Should you reply, 'In water: is it not written, Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of His hand?42 — 'He bathed in fire,' he answered, 'for it is written, Behold the Lord will come in fire.'43 'Is then purification by fire effective?' 'On the contrary,' he replied, 'bathing [for purposes of purification] should essentially be in fire, for it is written, And all that abideth not the fire ye shall make to go through the water.'44

Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 39

Water and fire.

Washing of the water by the word of God? (Eph) or "Now you are clean through the word I have spoken to you".

Baptised in the "dunamis" power of the Holy Spirit?

Kenny · Oct 26, 2018

The Zohar (Hebrew זֹהַר; Splendor, radiance) is widely considered the most important work of Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism.

``a door shall be opened, and out of it shall come forth the dove which Noah sent out in the days of the flood, as it is written, "and he sent forth the dove", that famous dove; but the ancients speak not of it, for they knew not what it was, only from whence it came, and did its message; as it is written, "it returned not again unto him any more": no man knows whither it went, but it returned to its place, and was hid within this door; and it shall take a crown in its mouth, and put it upon the head of the king Messiah.''

And the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God) descended as a dove on Jesus.

Is the Holy Spirit God?

metis · Oct 26, 2018

adrian009 said:
Could John the Baptist have been a Sabean?

Sabean Mandeans Keep Faith in Dangerous Land

There was quite a bit of sharing of ideas in that neck of the woods historically, so I think both are at least possible even if there was no direct connection.

Did he come in the spirit of Elijah?

Mark 9:11-13, Matthew 11:13-14, Malachi 4:5-6

I do think it's likely, and that's one of the things we focused on in our discussion.

metis · Oct 26, 2018

KenS said:
Baptism of fire and water:

Babylonian Talmud:

A certain Min said to R. Abbahu: Your God is a priest, since it is written, That they take for me Terumah [wave offering].39 Now, when He had buried Moses,40 wherein did He bathe [after contact with the corpse]?41 Should you reply, 'In water: is it not written, Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of His hand?42 — 'He bathed in fire,' he answered, 'for it is written, Behold the Lord will come in fire.'43 'Is then purification by fire effective?' 'On the contrary,' he replied, 'bathing [for purposes of purification] should essentially be in fire, for it is written, And all that abideth not the fire ye shall make to go through the water.'44

Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 39

Water and fire.

Washing of the water by the word of God? (Eph) or "Now you are clean through the word I have spoken to you".

Baptised in the "dunamis" power of the Holy Spirit?

I was unfamiliar with that Talmudic reference, so thanks. Also, I tend to think that the "Holy Spirit" in the NT is probably a manifestation of "God's Spirit" as found in the Tanakh.

BTW, the "fire" & "water" analogy sorta reminds me of the ying/yang, a merging of opposites, as found in traditional Chinese mythology, so I wonder that after you are baptized that you then should eat an egg roll? Justa thought.

metis · Oct 26, 2018

KenS said:
Is the Holy Spirit God?

Again, I was not familiar with that citation from the Zohar, so thanks. But will I remember it tomorrow?

To your question, yes I think the HS is likely a "manifestation" of God but not completely God, thus one can understand how the Trinitarian concept came about. What do you think?

metis · Oct 26, 2018

Brickjectivity said:
Doesn't everybody wear a belt?

I'm not sure but what consisted of the common laborers was a belt to wear whereas they could gird their loins, namely pull up the front and back of their robes and tuck them under the belt so they could wade in the water or keep it clean on land. I'm not sure, however, whether there was any such reference as such with Elijah in the Tanakh.

Brickjectivity said:
Highly significant is that John baptizes Jesus instead of Jesus baptizing John. Nobody has touched that yet in the thread, but its opposite to what one might think. When you go to church to get baptized its usually the pastor who dunks you. You don't dunk the pastor.

Jesus lowered himself at different intervals as a "Son of Man", which long was viewed as being a messianic reference, so I tend to drift in that direction.

metis · Oct 26, 2018

Regiomontanus said:
Hello. In regards to the belt, I assume it is because, in regards to Elijah: 2 Kings 1:8

[NIV renders that : They replied, “He had a garment of hair and had a leather belt around his waist."]

Ah, there ya go, so thanks for the above.

metis · Oct 26, 2018

KenS said:
You are in a great position! You must be as a little child to enter into the Kingdom of God.

Is that why my wife calls me her "fourth child"? And here I thought she was insulting me. Whew!

metis · Oct 26, 2018

KenS said:
John is baptizing which, from my understanding, isn't a practice of their times. People are flocking to "the grace of the Lord". Imagine the stir of "what is God doing?" Something "new" is about to happen as something "new" is being done

Groups were using the mikvah, especially the Essenes, but normally it was for the purposes of ridding one's self of any ritual contamination. Because of this, however, if one converted, and because of exposure to ritual contamination, the mikvah was quite widely used upon conversion. When I converted I went into the mikvah, thus polluting the water and leaving a ring.

KenS said:
I don't believe it is a coincidence that John the Baptist had his ministry in the wilderness

Same here, especially if he was a nazir.

KenS said:
John, opening the door of the grace of God and paving the way for grace manifest (Jesus)

Like Elijah was to do.

sealchan · Oct 26, 2018

metis said:
After talking with @KenS, both he and I put our heads together (barely missing double digits in IQ) and decided to discuss what I'm involved with over a 20 session period (1 per week) on the study of Matthew's Gospel (1 chapter at a time) at my local Catholic Church. What we're going to do is to discuss some of what's covered each session, and we welcome anyone who wants to discuss this with us. Please note that this is to discuss, not to debate or to argue or to rant & rave. We are not judging nor demeaning churches nor people, including leaders within them.

IOW, we invite any gentlemen, any gentlewomen, and any gentletransgenders who may want to possibly get involved to discuss. Make checks payable to-- oops, I don't think we're allowed to do that, although Ken does say he takes Visa and MasterCard.

I attended the first session on Wednesday, which is the day we meet, and most of the time was just introductory kind of stuff. Therefore, right after finishing this introduction, I'll give a very brief synopsis of that session.

In closing this post, please keep this civil and theological (that's a really big word for Ken and I).

I will try to participate...at least through the first six chapters...

sealchan · Oct 26, 2018

metis said:
OK, now my takes:

The genealogy I don't take at literal value for a couple of reasons, with one of them being that during the Babylonian Exile most of these tribal lineages got sorta lost since most of the tribes began to intermarry. Secondly, a great many names were dropped from the lineages found in Torah, and even they don't exactly match. Instead, I look at this narrative as being a rather subjective approach to try and establish Jesus as being the messiah, so I can accept that attempt on that level.

The strong but controversial women are interesting in that even though eretz Israel was quite a patriarchal society, there still was respect for loyal women and what they could do even if they clearly had faults. However, one of the things I added is that most of the strong men mentioned in Torah also are portrayed as having faults as well, and David seemed to be intent on acquiring as many as he could. Some Jewish commentaries have it that this is so we don't view any of these people as being gods or even demigods.

As far as the parallels between Jesus and Joshua, I find that interesting, and it certainly is not unusual in early Jewish writings.

As far as Mary being a virgin at Jesus' birth and beyond, I really don't buy that literally even if my children believe that they are the product of immaculate conceptions. Instead, I tend to feel it's more likely one of these folktales injected to try and even more connect Jesus to God and, again, another justification for the Trinitarian concept that we'll be covering in later chapters.

To finish, just a reminder that this is a discussion, not a debate, forum that @KenS and I had agreed to discuss with others more than welcome. However, please do remember that this is a Christian DIR forum.

I'm looking forward to your comments.

What is the significance of tracing the ancestry of Jesus through Joseph if Joseph isnt biologically related to Jesus?

Kenny · Oct 26, 2018

metis said:
Again, I was not familiar with that citation from the Zohar, so thanks. But will I remember it tomorrow?

To your question, yes I think the HS is likely a "manifestation" of God but not completely God, thus one can understand how the Trinitarian concept came about. What do you think?

As I view this manifestation, it that changes the view of what one reads in the Tanakh and, as I view it, begins to lean support that God is much more that what was understood and/or interpreted.

Perhaps, on purpose, Elohim (plural) was placed on purpose and yet He is One.

Kenny · Oct 26, 2018

metis said:
Is that why my wife calls me her "fourth child"? And here I thought she was insulting me. Whew!

Reminds me of when my wife and I said to our children, "You are SO intelligent" when they did something less than wise

sealchan · Oct 26, 2018

metis said:
Chapter Two Overview for @KenS and others:

Jesus born in Bethlehem.

Herod seeks him out for elimination.

Magi (probably gentiles) follow star to find Jesus and they bring gifts.

Holy Family flees to Egypt while Herod has the "Holy Innocents" killed.

Angel tells Joseph that they can return to Israel because Herod's dead.

Holy Family goes to and settles in Nazareth instead of Bethlehem whereas it says "He shall be called a Nazarene".

I find the inclusion of Magi on the one hand and Herod and all of Jerusalem on the other seems to be a means to knock Judaism down a peg by unfavorably comparing it (if Herod and all Jerusalem can be seen as a reference to the condition of Hudaism at the time) to a foreign religion. The devout Magi on a personal, spiritual journey know and Jerusalem does not know.

To my mind the author of Matthew has already in mind the argument for the need for a new religion.

sealchan · Oct 26, 2018

metis said:
Chapter Three Overview

This is a short chapter so my overview and my take will be quite short, especially since I'm leaving on a mini-vacation tomorrow anyway. So here are the main points of interest to me:

John the Baptist preaches repentance and confession and baptizes Jesus with water.

Pharisees & Sadducees come to hear him.

Similarity with Elijah and the latter's role to announce the Messiah, plus there's similarities between Elisha and Jesus.

Jesus said that he will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire, thus a prediction of what is to happen at Pentecost.

Another interesting contrast between establishment Judaism in the synagogue and the many who made the journey out into the wilderness to get something more satisfying. Then representatives of the synagogues come out and are rebuffed.

This plus John's obvious role as foretelling the coming of Jesus again like Chapter 2 sets the stage for an apparent need for a new religion.

I wonder then again about Chapter 1s genealogy and how the author of Matthew saw the genealogy and Joseph's own trouble of a virgin wife with child...is there intended irony here?

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