Unconditional Love verses Conditional Rewards

stvdv said:

27 jun 2018 stvdv 013 29
God is known for "unconditional Love". What does this mean? It seems it not only confuses me

Meaning God Loves a serial killer/rapist. Even if you kill all Native Indians, Jews or animals, God will love you

Not meaning "God loves you for doing the killing part". God loves you, because that is what God does best

Tricky part: God loves unconditional BUT God Grants conditional His rewards. Like in School and Games

Quite simple to me once I could see there is a difference between "God's Love" and "God's Rewards"

Strange thing: Sometimes it seems the bad guys get the million boons, how about that? Interesting point IMO

Curious how many (dis)agree. That's why I included a little simple poll [multiple choices]

Note: Of course I know nothing about God, and how He might feel (today). I even feel not always the same
Note: So all this is just Hypothetically speaking trying to get a grip on this confusing matter
Note: Again of course hypothesis = Let's assume God exist and Has Love and Grants Rewards

NOTE: Thank you @adrian009 pointing out my mistake. To me "Unconditional Love" is clear, but "I am at a loss" that people in name of their religion do so many cruel things shouting "Allah o Akbar" or "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

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I am not trying to sound like an anus, but I know of nowhere where it says God loves unconditionally. However we are commanded to do so.

nPeace said:

Nope. I know what I am saying. Who could validate if I am right or wrong?

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You misunderstood what I meant. I was not implying that you didn't know what you said. I only meant "you can physical press the button", not saying that you could select the correct answer that felt good for you. Anyway I didn't put time limit. You can re-vote anytime.

nPeace said:

God is in control of his dominant quality - love. Hence, it's not unconditional... Also based on the examples I gave - conditions apply.

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Okay, I understand, that is another way to look at it. I look at it from a different perspective. Both make sense to me.

nPeace said:

If you insist, I'll vote.

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I do NOT insist. For me voting is good, because I used to so terrible in making a decision. Maybe you must learn "not to vote at all"

nPeace said:

A perfect son doesn't mean - one-direction. That son can turn ugly - his choice.

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It can happen, but my experience is that people hardly change. Don't expect your girlfriend to change. She might try, but old habits die hard.
So also if you have a perfect son, he probably stays perfect. But sometimes he seems perfect but there was a small glitch, growing and exploding.

nPeace said:

Yes, it's God's problem to deal with. In fact he is dealing with not just that one problem, but all others.

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I love this "God is the creator of all and responsible for all". Finally I have someone to blame for everything. And He even likes it if I get mad at Him. God is so great. My best friend ever.

nPeace said:

Can the soul die?

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I can answer from 2 different viewpoints. 1 will give "yes", and 2 will give "no". I love it when there are multiple answers possible. Both easy to defend.

InChrist said:

The difference is that Love does not enable destructive behavior. In the case of God, although He freely offers His love to every person He will not enable abusive, evil people who persist in their sin and refuse to change or stop harming themselves and others to enter into the eternal home He has in store for those who desire to reside where Love is lived out.

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How does salvation and eternal life equal to distructive behavior and evil people?

robocop (actually) said:

I am not trying to sound like an anus, but I know of nowhere where it says God loves unconditionally. However we are commanded to do so.

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Yep. The whole bible is based on conditions for love

robocop (actually) said:

I am not trying to sound like an anus, but I know of nowhere where it says God loves unconditionally. However we are commanded to do so.

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I don't mind if you sound like it, I would mind if you smell like it, but of course only when in smelling distance.

Okay? I did come across quite a few of those "Unconditionally Love" lines in the past 30 years reading many different spiritual Scriptures. Maybe you read other Scriptures. Google is a perfect search machine; so far usually I found whatever I needed within a few minutes.

Hint: We are not in Biblical Debate Forum here. There are many other scriptures flooded with Love and without all the fighting seen in Bible/Koran.

stvdv said:

You misunderstood what I meant. I was not implying that you didn't know what you said. I only meant "you can physical press the button", not saying that you could select the correct answer that felt good for you. Anyway I didn't put time limit. You can re-vote anytime.


Okay, I understand, that is another way to look at it. I look at it from a different perspective. Both make sense to me.


I do NOT insist. For me voting is good, because I used to so terrible in making a decision. Maybe you must learn "not to vote at all"

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Those are words in print. Don't read too much into them. You might hear more than you see.

stvdv said:

It can happen, but my experience is that people hardly change. Don't expect your girlfriend to change. She might try, but old habits die hard.
So also if you have a perfect son, he probably stays perfect. But sometimes he seems perfect but there was a small glitch, growing and exploding.


I love this "God is the creator of all and responsible for all". Finally I have someone to blame for everything. And He even likes it if I get mad at Him. God is so great. My best friend ever.


I can answer from 2 different viewpoints. 1 will give "yes", and 2 will give "no". I love it when there are multiple answers possible. Both easy to defend.

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See what I mean. Where did I say God is responsible - Hearing more than you are actually seeing.
When I said it's God's problem to deal with, that's exactly what I meant.
Only he can deal with that problem, and the others created by it - Not that he is responsible for the problem.

A problem may come up in your home. As head, and the one with the means to, you must deal with the problem, but you are not responsible for it. Got it?

Okay. Defend the 'No'.

stvdv said:

I don't mind if you sound like it, I would mind if you smell like it, but of course only when in smelling distance.

Okay? I did come across quite a few of those "Unconditionally Love" lines in the past 30 years reading many different spiritual Scriptures. Maybe you read other Scriptures. Google is a perfect search machine; so far usually I found whatever I needed within a few minutes.

Hint: We are not in Biblical Debate Forum here. There are many other scriptures flooded with Love and without all the fighting seen in Bible/Koran.

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In my experience God does not unconditionally love in any scripture. I don't really believe in choice though, so maybe it's unconditional anyway.

Unveiled Artist said:

Yep. The whole bible is based on conditions for love

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Lucky for us we are in this post not in the "Biblical Debate Forum"
It's "General Debate Forum": what a relieve, isn't it?

So you can pick any Scripture dealing with God and Unconditional Love
I read plenty in the past 30 years. All of them were flooded with Unconditional Love

stvdv said:

Lucky for us we are in this post not in the "Biblical Debate Forum"
It's "General Debate Forum": what a relieve, isn't it?

So you can pick any Scripture dealing with God and Unconditional Love
I read plenty in the past 30 years. All of them were flooded with Unconditional Love

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Naw, you missing the conditions under which the "unconditional love" are based on. What love did god give that had no conditions to which believers/nonbelievers must be saved to benefit from it?

How do you benefit from an unopened gift? God doesnt open it for you. Its your choice. Its the condition he made for you to either accept his gift and open it (and say thank you) or dont take it.

Unconditional love has no consequence (benefit vs not). Its free from reservations.

What did god do to which nonbelievers benefit from him without needing to believe first?

nPeace said:

Those are words in print. Don't read too much into them. You might hear more than you see.

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Thank you, always good to remember

nPeace said:

See what I mean. Where did I say God is responsible - Hearing more than you are actually seeing.

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True you did not say it and I understood you very well, I did not read more into it

I said it, because this is my spiritual path. Fully surrender to God, and then He takes all responsibilities. That is why God is my best friend.

nPeace said:

A problem may come up in your home. As head, and the one with the means to, you must deal with the problem, but you are not responsible for it. Got it?

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I understand you. I do not expect you to understand me though [see the above line of mine]

nPeace said:

Okay. Defend the 'No'.

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About souls dying. So you ask me to defend "soul is not dying". I do not believe it is useful to "do this defending thing". Because this is not Biblical Debate but General Debate. And I am not sure if you are much into Advaita. So probably there will be mis-communication. And if you are into Advaita then I need not explain to you, because you can figure it out yourself.

Unveiled Artist said:

Naw, you missing the conditions under which the "unconditional love" are based on. What love did god give that had no conditions to which believers/nonbelievers must be saved to benefit from it?

How do you benefit from an unopened gift? God doesnt open it for you. Its your choice. Its the condition he made for you to either accept his gift and open it (and say thank you) or dont take it.

Unconditional love has no consequence (benefit vs not). Its free from reservations.

What did god do to which nonbelievers benefit from him without needing to believe first?

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You stated that you only read "conditional Love" in the Bible
I stated that I have read "Unconditional Love" in other Scriptures
So I think this is clear now.

Now we can both choose the option that makes us happy

The questions you pose look like debate questions, trying to challenge "unconditional Love"
For me "Uncondtional Love" is really a no issue
And besides that you know me a little, I am not into debate, unless I need to learn something
For the moment I have all clear. No questions left. And that feels good

I am more the type who meditates and introspects to get his answers
Others use debate to get to answers

stvdv said:

You stated that you only read "conditional Love" in the Bible
I stated that I have read "Unconditional Love" in other Scriptures
So I think this is clear now.

Now we can both choose the option that makes us happy

The questions you pose look like debate questions, trying to challenge "unconditional Love"
For me "Uncondtional Love" is really a no issue
And besides that you know me a little, I am not into debate, unless I need to learn something
For the moment I have all clear. No questions left. And that feels good

I am more the type who meditates and introspects to get his answers
Others use debate to get to answers

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Depends on your definition of debate. I value thinking beyond by beliefs.

Conditional love is not a bad thing no more than unconditional.

A unconditional god would say: I love you despite how you see me. I love you regardless that you dont believe. There are no such thing as unbeliever. No good or bad. You dont need to worship me. I save you regardless.

Universalism.

A conditional god is more how god wants you to be and how to worship as so he will bless the believer and not those who do not. The conditions (or prequisite, terms, or reservations) of that love is given depends on how much both parties put into the relationship.

By definition, conditional love is worship.



Universalism is the idea all humans will be saved. The opposite is those who believe are saved, those who do not arent; its division. Unconditional love is not onesided. Its a balance.

There are no bahai. No hindu. No Pagan. No atheist. No christian if god loves unconditionally. Denomintions need not exists.

Most believers do know and express it profoundly the conditions to which god loves unconditionally. Its ironic but thats their logic.

I have seen it in all churches I visited. All christians I spoke with. All denominations. All of scripture; its written in OT and New, Maybe you are a univeralist. I dont know.

It is not a bad thing. Many people are indotrinated because their parents see these conditions as requirements for actual worship. More healthy parents teach god's conditions without parental coersion. Some have bad experiences. Others have not.

When I practiced, the conditions to which I believed in god was

1. I believe first
2. I follow
3. I worship
4. I study
5. I take the sacraments

These are the conditions to which god has set. Those are which I was told by him to follow and be saved. Those are his parental conditions.



I dont follow god. By what means god would still love me when I dont acknowkedge his existence?

What is love when both parties have no conditions to which that love is based?

It is not negative. Scripture does not support universalism.

Not all of us who challenge your disagreement are seeing the convo as a debate.

Try not to take it personal.

Windwalker said:

So I am asking if when you look at the marvel of the universe, do you feel no sense of love in your very being, radiating out of the magesties of the natural world? No connections, just theoretical concepts about what reality is, without actually being a part of it with your being, somewhere at some level at least?

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I feel no specific attachment to the universe and it's processes. However I do value highly the natural world, the global ecology, on this particular planet. Since it is our life support system. I do enjoy walking around in environments relatively untainted by humanity, sometimes looking for rare species of plant and fungi that might be under threat, that kind of thing.

I do not feel any particular connection, to anything. I consider myself a biological machine, a replicator that is self aware. That only exists for one reason, to reproduce. Like every other life form on Earth.

So, I can be whatever I want to be, because it doesn't actually matter, nothing really matters, the universe is wholly indifferent to human fantasy and expectation. We light our own candles in the infinite darkness. There is noone coming to help us. There is no heaven or hell, there is only oblivion and the endless stars that will shine on long after humanity has gone.

Windwalker said:

You are a much too literal soul! Are you unable to look at the world and see it as "miraculous"? Must for you in order to relate to it have to have the mechanics and the bits explained? What need is there for poetry? What need for music? What need for art? What need for metaphors, when nothing but "systems within systems" is all you see?

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I don't really understand the point of poetry or art, music however I can appreciate to a degree, but in general those things are beyond my ken. I do not know how to appreciate them as others seem to.

I have seen people at music festivals jumping around and appearing to enjoy themselves, but I just don't understand why they enjoy themselves, I don't know what it is they are tapping into, but I am not envious nor do I feel an urge to join in, my impulse rather is to watch them and observe their social interplay.


I don't see the world and it's contents as miraculous, I see it as an inevitable product of the universe. I understand I look at things somewhat differently, but that's the way it is.

stvdv said:

Thank you, always good to remember


True you did not say it and I understood you very well, I did not read more into it

I said it, because this is my spiritual path. Fully surrender to God, and then He takes all responsibilities. That is why God is my best friend.


I understand you. I do not expect you to understand me though [see the above line of mine]


About souls dying. So you ask me to defend "soul is not dying". I do not believe it is useful to "do this defending thing". Because this is not Biblical Debate but General Debate. And I am not sure if you are much into Advaita. So probably there will be mis-communication. And if you are into Advaita then I need not explain to you, because you can figure it out yourself.

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Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. You're talking Hindu gods. Now I get you.
That's where you get the unconditional love.

That's okay, as long as you are not suggestions the the Biblical God is somehow like the gods of Hinduism.

That begs the question though, Which Hindu god are you referring to?
The 33 Million Gods of Hinduism...
The Hindu deity concept varies from a personal god as in Yoga school of Hindu philosophy, to 33 Vedic deities, to hundreds of Puranics of Hinduism. Illustrations of major deities include Vishnu, Sri (Lakshmi), Shiva, Sati, Brahma and Saraswati. These deities have distinct and complex personalities, yet are often viewed as aspects of the same Ultimate Reality called Brahman.

stvdv said:

Normally I am not so good at irony, but your frubals gave it away this time [They are really great on RF to color and convey stuff].

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Thank you for seeing my parody of Christian fundamentalism for what it was. I knew you would.

Magpie1978 said:

Your view is rather patronising and you come across like a plastic preacher
Your comment is unsupported and unsubstantiated and based merely on “YOUR” ideals of Christianity
So basically what you are implying is that as an example a poor unfortunate chap in a remote 3rd world country who has been living in poverty and is illiterate through no fault of his own but purely due to circumstances - this chap can’t read the bible and thus has not even a concept of Jesus or any other religion but the chap leads a good life and helps others etc- so your believe God will send this poor unfortunate to hell for eternity as punishment - then I would have to question what type of god would do that? And also question “your” interpretation of god

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Welcome to RF Maggie. Some of my ancestors were from Northern Ireland and have been hardline protestants and religious bigots. There used to be a saying that there would never be peace in Ireland. Christ's Teachings of love are what touch my soul, not vitriol about hellfire and damnation.

Windwalker said:

What's interesting is that he was making a parody of what he sees many Christians saying about God. It's humorous, because it has a kernel of actual truth to it found in the thinking of a great many Christians who do say such things, though not in quite so farcical a way. He was just taking the lipstick off the pig.

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Thanks for appreciating my somewhat perverse humour.

sojourner said:

It’s easy to beat up a straw man...

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I love the Teachings of Christ. It saddens me when God's message of love becomes something other than what was intended.

Unveiled Artist said:

Depends on your definition of debate. I value thinking beyond by beliefs.

Conditional love is not a bad thing no more than unconditional.

A unconditional god would say: I love you despite how you see me. I love you regardless that you dont believe. There are no such thing as unbeliever. No good or bad. You dont need to worship me. I save you regardless.

Universalism.

A conditional god is more how god wants you to be and how to worship as so he will bless the believer and not those who do not. The conditions (or prequisite, terms, or reservations) of that love is given depends on how much both parties put into the relationship.

By definition, conditional love is worship.



Universalism is the idea all humans will be saved. The opposite is those who believe are saved, those who do not arent; its division. Unconditional love is not onesided. Its a balance.
There are no bahai. No hindu. No Pagan. No atheist. No christian if god loves unconditionally. Denomintions need not exists.
Most believers do know and express it profoundly the conditions to which god loves unconditionally. Its ironic but thats their logic.
I have seen it in all churches I visited. All christians I spoke with. All denominations. All of scripture; its written in OT and New, Maybe you are a univeralist. I dont know.

It is not a bad thing. Many people are indotrinated because their parents see these conditions as requirements for actual worship. More healthy parents teach god's conditions without parental coersion. Some have bad experiences. Others have not.

When I practiced, the conditions to which I believed in god was
1. I believe first
2. I follow
3. I worship
4. I study
5. I take the sacraments

These are the conditions to which god has set. Those are which I was told by him to follow and be saved. Those are his parental conditions.



I dont follow god. By what means god would still love me when I dont acknowkedge his existence?
What is love when both parties have no conditions to which that love is based?
It is not negative. Scripture does not support universalism.

Not all of us who challenge your disagreement are seeing the convo as a debate. Try not to take it personal.

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Not all of us who challenge your disagreement are seeing the convo as a debate. Try not to take it personal.
That is friendly of you to say. Thank you. It is not even that I take it personal, or that I don't like people challenging my ideas. I actually love it when they challenge my ideas. And I am very grateful to them. Because I always learn from it. And if I need not defend my ideas I am totally senang.

Just attack my ideas, that makes me happy. But don' ask me to defend my ideas. I don't like to disappoint people. Heck sometimes I disagree with myself. I also get over that. If others disagree with me, so much easier to be at peace with that

So maybe I should better post under "Discussion forum". But then people don't challenge my ideas, and I miss out on learning new things about it. That's why I like to post on "Debate forum", but refrain normally from debating, unless I really think it is important. Does I still make any sense?

Proselytizing is the only thing I might debate people on [I can think of now], when they try to convince me that it is a good thing. I don't mind that they proselytize, but don't do it on me, nor try to convince me it's good for me. "let's agree to disagree on this one" is best to say on that one. Once about 1 year ago a certain proselytizer denomination literally placed his foot in my door. Then I invite him in and I will focus on only 1 Bible verse: genesis 1:29. And once they get me going on that verse, they will soon be sick to their stomach and beg me to let them go. Always works.


Thank you very much for the beautiful words. You make it very clear. Very easy to understand. How you do that, your previous reply I really did not understand any of the lines you were writing [all was abacadabra to me]. And suddenly now you write ONLY lines/words that I fully understand [maybe I did need some sleep, was up like 48 hours with maybe 4 hours sleep]. About some of your points I think different, but at least I understand them. I never think so much about these things in terms of definition, in such a detailed way. So I am glad you did. Makes things very clear [I already felt senang about it, but it is nice to see in written in a way that also feels senang]. Indeed it seems that I might be what you described as a Universalist. I did not even know such a thing existed though. But it makes sense, us having a universe.

But then I looked up the definition, and they had quite a few restrictions that did not make sense to me. But how you described I like very much. Interesting to see, how easy my "believe or thinking" can take a certain direction.

Once I saw a beautiful story about religion explained by colors of the rainbow, this kind of explain to a tee, how I see it:
There was a teacher with his children. standing in a circle. Sun was shining on a dew drop. Teacher asked all children what color the raindrop was. All saw different colors. Started fighting, because all thought they were right. Then he told them to switch places. And finally the children realized that they had been all mistaken. Nobody was wrong, nobody was right. The teacher was teaching about religion.

This is how I see religion/atheism/humanism etc. There is not 1 right one, and nobody is wrong. I really love this very short story. Realizing this, made all perfectly understandable to me. Better than this I can not explain. The funny part is, that I found this on a "Baptist Church website just a few km away from me".

So I wrote them "If this is how you really believe, I will come to your church, then I never need another church". They never replied to that mail. Sometimes funny things happen, at least I found this very funny. Still wondering why this story is still on their website. Maybe God does exist, but did not want me in that Church. I mean how much easier I could make it for them to save 1 extra soul?

Thanks again for this wonderful post. I really enjoyed reading this. You remind me of the girl "Anna" in a book I once read "Mister God, this is Anna". Asking all kind of questions about the universe. Not taking all just for granted. Being in awe and wonder about everything she saw around. Was one of the books I enjoyed most reading.

I liked your line about "Universalism" a lot "there are no Bahai, Hindu, Pagan, Atheist, Christian". I fully agree here. Maybe they won't agree so much. Although when I read the book of the founder of Bahai, I did get the feeling that He agreed with it completely.

Maybe a "strong atheist who is at the same time a superstrong advaitist" might also fully agree on that. The others I doubt won't agree

Personally I do not believe "that all humans will be saved".. If you understand how I think/believe, than you understand why I say this.

nPeace said:

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. You're talking Hindu gods. Now I get you.
That's where you get the unconditional love.

That's okay, as long as you are not suggestions the the Biblical God is somehow like the gods of Hinduism.

That begs the question though, Which Hindu god are you referring to?
The 33 Million Gods of Hinduism...
The Hindu deity concept varies from a personal god as in Yoga school of Hindu philosophy, to 33 Vedic deities, to hundreds of Puranics of Hinduism. Illustrations of major deities include Vishnu, Sri (Lakshmi), Shiva, Sati, Brahma and Saraswati. These deities have distinct and complex personalities, yet are often viewed as aspects of the same Ultimate Reality called Brahman.

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I can't help but notice that you decapitalize Hindu god [even twice and that in only 3 lines]. That kind of "rules out" slip of the typing finger, especially seeing that 5 words prior you did capitalize Biblical God; Just a word of advice. It is not such a friendly thing to do IMHO

May God Bless us All
[This is a lovely greeting I saw a Muslim brother use on RF]

Thank you for the respectful response. I usually get to comment on everything since I cant read-remember-comment at one time. So, this is a hoshpogsh of sorts.

stvdv said:

And I am not sure if you are much into Advaita. So probably there will be mis-communication. And if you are into Advaita then I need not explain to you, because you can figure it out yourself.

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Advaita? I looked up....now wonder. Unconditional god in the abrahamic faith from what I experienced is totally different than (for me) how I experience "god" as a pantheist. I dont see god as a good word to describe beliefs like Paganism and Hinduism or any god(s) religion outside jewish, islam, and christian. I get the concept of brahman but I had one hindu try to descredit my knowing anything about his faith without the culture. Its easy to insult especially when we dont know the intent behind why we experience what we do.

Mox said:

I don't really understand the point of poetry or art, music however I can appreciate to

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but art IS god! My best friend told she didnt like music. I almost fainted.

stvdv said:

That is friendly of you to say. Thank you. It is not even that I take it personal, or that I don't like people challenging my ideas. I actually love it when they challenge my ideas. And I am very grateful to them. Because I always learn from it. And if I need not defend my ideas I am totally senang.

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Its hard to tell the difference online which people challenge. I challenge people when their theology doesnt line up with their speech. I question their logic.

For example, one RFer follows a universalist religion. One garden, many colors of flowers. Then, on the other hand, if one doesnt believe there is a gardener if not a garden, there is a disavantage and one needs to be educated with the truth. So its, "we believe god loves all the same and if you believe he does not, you will evetually." Ironic.

Stuff like that I challenge. But if its JW telling me all catholics are pagan I learn why then leave it alone.

stvdv said:

So maybe I should better post under "Discussion forum". But then people don't challenge my ideas, and I miss out on learning new things about it. That's why I like to post on "Debate forum", but refrain normally from debating, unless I really think it is important. Does I still make any sense?

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Some put clauses "for discussion" in their OP but I think that just fuses the debate more. Interfaith maybe but depends on peoples definition of debate. One persons dictionary is another persons wiki.

Edited.

Unveiled Artist said:

but art IS god! My best friend told she didnt like music. I almost fainted.

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I like music so long as there are no vocals.

As an example. I like the group Ozric Tentacles.