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Is there a "Universal Moral Conscience"?

joe1776

Well-Known Member
If you are saying your conscience/moral instinct 'punishes' you for harming innocents, you have to be the one who judges them to be innocent, and it is very clear from the human experience that we are very good at justifying actions that may well be considered immoral from a more objective perspective.
The justification process of which you speak is a bias which can send judgment off course but that doesn't make the biased judgment subjective (I'm assuming that the word "subjective" implies that you would consider the morality of the act simply a matter of opinion). I'm saying that an unbiased jury is needed to make moral judgments.

It is also clear that what societies deem immoral changes vastly over time and space, for example honour killings frequently go unpunished in certain societies as the perpetrator was judged to have justification (i.e. they were not harming an innocent).
It's sometimes impossible to find an unbiased jury for the very reason you mention. That fact doesn't make moral judgments subjective, though. It makes them likely to be unjust, such as in the case of honor killings.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Is there a Universal Moral Conscience (UMC)? If there is, then we should find that people universally or near universally feel that some things are wrong, and some things are right, and largely agree on what those things are.

Second, if there is a UMC, is its origins and/or nature a mystery to us?





I myself think there is something of a UMC, but that it's not much of mystery how it originated or what its nature is. What people consider right or wrong seems to me to be based on three general factors. Genes, culture, and individual preferences.

For example, there seems to be a cross-cultural, nearly universal disapproval of some kinds of lying. This would indicate a genetic basis for some sort of taboo against lying.

But specifically what kind of lying is disapproved of varies somewhat from culture to culture, and some kinds of lying - such as lying in defense of oneself or others -- is nearly universally approved of.

Moreover, the acceptance of lying can change in a culture over time. American culture today is far and away more tolerant of lying than it was 100 or 150 years ago.

Then again, you have individuals who seem to be habitual liars. So at least three factors are involved in determining one's UMC regarding lying. Genes. Culture. And individual preference.

There probably is, and it's almost certainly evolutionary in origin.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Is there a Universal Moral Conscience (UMC)? If there is, then we should find that people universally or near universally feel that some things are wrong, and some things are right, and largely agree on what those things are.
I think we should look to modern psychology and sociology for the answer. This is also a philosophical question since it involves morality.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Morality is simply a natural consequence of intellectual ability in a world where our actions and omissions have consequences on the well-being of others.

As opposed to our actions and omissions having consequences with a deity (or superhuman being).
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
This cultural anthropologist says no. There are some fairly common moral rules - don't kill unnecessarily, don't commit incest, don't destroy a resource everyone in your community needs - but I would not call them universals, for several reasons. Partly because there always turns out to be an exception somewhere, partly because not everyone is neurotypical and experiences "conscience" the same way as everyone else, and partly because even the most ancient of those rules has a pedigree of maybe a few hundred thousand years. There was, as Arius might put it, a time when Logos/law was not, and it was not so very long ago in the grand scheme of things. Calling something universal because it is the majority opinion of one variant of one species most of the time for a very short period of time seems like some sort of exaggeration to me.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
To me, this seems much more likely. Even other primates have been shown to have a basic sense of fairness. While some, like Chimps, are hierarchical, some others, like Bonobos, are not as much. Humans don't seem to be either a Tournament species, nor strictly, an egalitarian one, but rather some sort of mixture of the two.


Well, Bonobos are actually very hierarchical - but their social relationships are more or less matriarchal, and also somewhat more collaborative between the sexes. Yet they are incredibly "class-conscious" (to use the human terminology) and not exactly peaceniks.

A few studies:


In the Bonobo World, Female Camaraderie Prevails

Dr. Parish, who studies bonobos in captivity, has seen the young offspring of dominant females flaunt their inherited power by marching over to lesser-ranking female adults, prying their jaws open and extracting the food from their mouths.

As for male bonobos, they may subordinate themselves to females in cliques, and they may have no interest in hanging out with the guys. But they have a secret social weapon: their mothers. Male bonobos stay with their mothers for life, and as her status grows with age, so does his.

Bonobos Use the Power of Female Friendship to Overthrow Male Hierarchy

How do female bonobos rise through their hierarchy? "By launching seemingly unprovoked attacks on males," says Amy. "Ripping off fingernails, toenails, biting testicles. One time they bit a penis in half. So you can't really paint them as the peace-loving alternative to our other closest relative, the chimp. It's interesting that people would want to. I think it's because it's such a foreign concept to us that females would be dominant and aggressive toward males. It makes no sense, so it's just discounted.

The alpha female at Twycross Zoo abducted the infant of the lowest ranking female, even though she was still nursing her own infant. After weeks of rough treatment at the alpha’s hands, she lost interest and the infant had to be removed for human rearing as it showed signs of “weakness and dehydration”.

At Apenheul Zoo in the Netherlands, five female bonobos were discovered to have attacked an adolescent male as its mother tried to peel them off and were seen gnawing on his toes; the flesh could be seen between their teeth as they chewed away. The researchers observing said that the male appeared to have been “at the wrong place at the wrong time.”
(p. 119)

So-called "Ancestral Pan", the hypothetical shared common ancestor of humans, bonobos, and chimpanzees, is thought to have lived amid social dominance hierarchies that resulted in conflict through individual (one above others) and coalitional competition (between groups). Bonobos are not really an exception.

Female bonobos are thus dominant over males, even though they are smaller; the 'sons' of alpha-females outrank the sons of lesser females and there is a clear hierarchy between females. The highest status males are also most successful at mating, among bonobos and chimps, regardless of which gender is dominant. So the sons of 'big-mamma' get the most girls in Bonobo society ;) (see this BBC news article):


Do bonobos really spend all their time having sex?

If a dominant female has a son, he will benefit from her position in society. As a result, “you can get some males that are more dominant than low-ranking females in the group,” says Clay.

Whereas chimpanzees are dominated by single aggressive alpha-males, bonobos are led, basically, by bisexual "alpha-females" who are more interested in sex than violence. Indeed, female bonobos use promiscuity as a means of conflict resolution, such that male bonobos take little to do with parenting since it's practically impossible for them to know which offspring are theirs (so many sexual partners do the 'matriarchs' have).

When chimps feed, the alpha-male is entitled first and sates himself, and then the rest of the clan share his leftovers. That's kingship, really, in human terms. When bonobos feed, by contrast, the dominant women eat first and have sex with each other, and then allow other females and males to share. Low-status individuals may be assaulted if found attempting to line-jump. Neither 'model' is particularly egalitarian.

To rise up the pecking order, 'lower-class' females clamour to have lesbian sex either in front of (to catch the attention of) or preferably with the alpha-female. In order words, low-ranking female bonobos are compelled to barter sex with alpha-females for better access to food (which, in human terms, would be viewed as sexual exploitation). Not because they’re eager for sexual contact. After a fight, even males may make genital contact with their rival in order to defuse the tension.


Apes 'advertise' homosexual bonds


Researchers studying communication among the apes found that females made the most noise during sex if the "alpha female" was nearby.

"Using vocalisations, females only advertise sexual contacts with important group members," said Dr Clay, "It's all about climbing up the social ladder for female bonobos."

The team found that calls were most likely to be made by lower-ranking females, particularly if they were "picked" by a higher-ranking female.

The females also appeared to consider their audience - calling more if the most important group member, the alpha female, was present.

"Bonobos appear to be highly aware of the dynamics governing their social worlds," said Dr Clay.

She suggests that the females have adopted the calls, usually associated with reproduction, as a strategic tool.

"As a low-ranked female, advertising [a] social-sexual bonding with another dominant group member may serve to strengthen their social position, and signal this to the alpha-female."


For the last 13,000 years of inequality, since the dawn of the Neolithic and the Agricultural Age, practically all post-hunter-gatherer human beings - especially the male of the species - have organised themselves into hierarchical social structures like our chimpanzee and bonobo cousins.

Matriarchies have been seldom, we have (unfortunately) tended to adopt the aggressive chimpanzee model by default.

Modern liberal democracies are every bit as susceptible to this. We face this in our governments, with their top-down structures of power. Donald Trump epitomizes it, We face it in corporations, where bosses tell the little-guy at the bottom what to do and use him as the fall-guy when things go pear-shaped, due to administrative or budgeting failure (i.e. scapegoating of someone weaker). We find the same pattern of social behaviour in youth gangs and in many other kinds of male gatherings, where boys manoeuvre, sometimes with fisticuffs, to prove who has the greater machismo.

Which is precisely why, the absence of hierarchies among hunter-gatherers and their zealous passion for equality - indeed their overwhelmingly strong stigma against the 'putting on of airs', or domineering behaviour - is striking and actually rather inexplicable. There is just no analogous social order among other primates, or in subsequent human societies. As the American psychologist Peter Gray explained in a 2015 paper:


https://www.psychologytoday.com/sites/default/files/Play Theory of HG Egal.Published.pdf


And yet, there is one very significant cultural category of human beings where we don't see hierarchical organization. We don't see it in band hunter-gatherers (as defined in chapter I). In all band hunter-gatherer societies that have been studied the dominant cultural ethos is one of individual autonomy, nonviolence. sharing, cooperation, and consensual decision making (Ingold, 1999).

Their core value, which underlies all the rest, is that of the equality of individuals. They do not have chiefs or other leaders of the type who tell others what to do; they make all group decisions through discussions aimed at consensus. If it is true that strivings for status and dominance are intrinsic to human nature, then hunter-gatherers somehow overcome that aspect of their nature and apparently have been doing so for a long, long time. How do they it?

The writings of anthropologists make it clear that hunter-gatherers are not passively egalitarian; they are actively so. Indeed, in the words of anthropologist Richard Lee (1988, p. 264), they are "fiercely egalitarian." They do not tolerate anyone's hoarding food or other goods, boasting, putting on airs, or trying to lord it over others.

On the basis of such observations, Christopher Boehm (1993, 1999) developed what he calls the reverse dominance theory of hunter-gatherer egalitarianism. His theory is that hunter-gatherers everywhere have learned to turn the dominance hierarchy upside down, so that the band as a whole acts in concert to suppress any individuals who attempt to dominate them. They use ridicule, shunning,and threats of ostracism to counteract any budding alpha male behavior. At the extreme,they might banish a domineering person from the band.


The fact that hunter-gatherer humans lived like this for a 100, 000 years proves that human primates are not straddled with an evolutionarily determined, survival-of-the-fittest social structure like our chimp relatives. Largely, in spite of our genes we 'did' it in the past and can 'do' it again.

And on this, since I'm a Christian, I'd like to give the last word to two of my favourite passages from the Bible (although one could equally choose texts from Eastern religions, Islam or atheistic humanist authors), first Old Testament and then New Testament, which concern this very topic:


22 Then the Israelites said to Gideon, “Rule over us, you and your son and your grandson also; for you have delivered us out of the hand of Midian.” 23 Gideon said to them, “I will not rule over you, and my son will not rule over you; the Lord will rule over you.” (Judges 8:22-23)

25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that among the Gentiles, those who appear to be their kings lord it over them, and their 'great' men are tyrants over them. 26 But it shall not be this way among you, rather whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:25-28)
 
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joe1776

Well-Known Member
This cultural anthropologist says no. There are some fairly common moral rules - don't kill unnecessarily, don't commit incest, don't destroy a resource everyone in your community needs - but I would not call them universals...
Those moral rules are the product of flawed reasoning. The judgments of conscience are instinctive feelings, not reasoning, and are probably universal. If the answer to both the following questions is "yes" the act will be found immoral in all cultures:

Was an innocent person harmed?
Was the harm done intentionally?

Biases will throw judgments off course, so the collective conscience of a jury, unbiased on the situation, will have the last word. It's impossible to find an unbiased jury on a particular case in some societies.
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
Those moral rules are the product of flawed reasoning. The judgments of conscience are instinctive feelings, not reasoning, and are probably universal. If the answer to both the following questions is "yes" the act will be found immoral in all cultures:

Was an innocent person harmed?
Was the harm done intentionally?

Biases will throw judgments off course, so the collective conscience of a jury, unbiased on the situation, will have the last word. It's impossible to find an unbiased jury on a particular case in some societies.
Neither "innocence" nor "intention" are concepts with analogues in all cultures. And you have only addressed one of the three points I made.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Neither "innocence" nor "intention" are concepts with analogues in all cultures. And you have only addressed one of the three points I made.
I didn't see it necessary to address all three since the idea that reasoning is the basis of conscience was all I needed to counter your argument.

And you know that innocence and intention aren't concepts sensed by all cultures. How?
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
I didn't see it necessary to address all three since the idea that reasoning is the basis of conscience was all I needed to counter your argument.

And you know that innocence and intention aren't concepts sensed by all cultures. How?
Because they.. aren't. Demonstrably.

Take Ilongot culture, for instance, famously documented in Western literature by the anthropologist Michelle Rosaldo; prior to Christian missionization, actions taken by one person against another were always assumed to be the result of their mutual relationship, visualized as a kind of string or strand binding them like a vine around a tree. The health of that strand was never in the exclusive control of either party, and resulting actions were never therefore blamed on only one of them. If a bad thing happened to you, that was in and of itself proof that you had contributed somehow to its happening, it would never have happened on its own nor solely because of the "will" of another; in such a cosmology, innocence could not possibly exist in any case where a crime actually occurred. When children were playing and one of them erred, both were punished. (source: Rosaldo 1980)
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Because they.. aren't. Demonstrably.

Take Ilongot culture, for instance, famously documented in Western literature by the anthropologist Michelle Rosaldo; prior to Christian missionization, actions taken by one person against another were always assumed to be the result of their mutual relationship, visualized as a kind of string or strand binding them like a vine around a tree. The health of that strand was never in the exclusive control of either party, and resulting actions were never therefore blamed on only one of them. If a bad thing happened to you, that was in and of itself proof that you had contributed somehow to its happening, it would never have happened on its own nor solely because of the "will" of another; in such a cosmology, innocence could not possibly exist in any case where a crime actually occurred. When children were playing and one of them erred, both were punished. (source: Rosaldo 1980)
So, based on a book you read of the strange morality of a primitive tribe, you have, by deduction, concluded that innocence and intent must be beyond their understanding? And based on your deduction, you feel confident in stating that "innocence and intention aren't concepts sensed by all cultures."

Okay, well, thanks for your response.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Is there a Universal Moral Conscience (UMC)? If there is, then we should find that people universally or near universally feel that some things are wrong, and some things are right, and largely agree on what those things are.
Second, if there is a UMC, is its origins and/or nature a mystery to us?

Google: Conscience is a person's moral sense of right and wrong, viewed as acting as a guide to one's behaviour.

So conscience is individual. But is shaped by the society one lives in.

RF is not yet universal but getting there [I saw "aliens" and "ufo's" fly by].
So the RF rules contribute to "Planetarian Moral Conscience (PMC)" as do religions.
Also some leaders, like D.T. might add "lying is oke" to our PMC.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Is there a Universal Moral Conscience (UMC)? If there is, then we should find that people universally or near universally feel that some things are wrong, and some things are right, and largely agree on what those things are.

Second, if there is a UMC, is its origins and/or nature a mystery to us?

All answers are personal beliefs in one way or another.

That said. The Universal Moral Conscience is a set of Law granted to humans. Possibly by the covenant of Noah, all mankind will be judged by this set of law. It is thus universal. Subsequent covenants (such as the one with Moses) will alter the way of judgment but the set of Law remains intact. No matter you are unbelievers (say, under Noah's covenant) or the Jews under Mosaic covenant or Christians under the New Covenant, you still need to act with your conscience.

Individuals all have a variance of conscience simply because conscience can be distorted by several factor. Some already said that culture of a society you live in during your early development as a child matters. The point how early in your childhood you start to receive influence from your culture? Or more critically how a culture is formed. Again, it all ties to one's own belief to assume how a culture is formed. Supernaturally, Satan and his angels have laid a hand on the formation of each and every culture.

Another factor is individual education. Usually we receive conscience education in our childhood by parents' influence, or any other outer sources. The question is who else can influence us in the formation of our individual conscience (i.e., other than our own parents and etc.)? Since when and to what extent that we can receive such an education? Again supernaturally Satan starts this education when you are still in your mother's womb. That's how you can be "born to be a liar".
 
I found that the analogy to answer the question :


A glass of water always being filled , so that it could get spilled from it .
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
So, based on a book you read of the strange morality of a primitive tribe, you have, by deduction, concluded that innocence and intent must be beyond their understanding? And based on your deduction, you feel confident in stating that "innocence and intention aren't concepts sensed by all cultures."

Okay, well, thanks for your response.
"Beyond understanding"? No, of course not. Obviously, if everyone had converted to Christianity by time of writing, western perspectives on individual guilt and punishment weren't "beyond understanding". Generally speaking, all humans can understand the philosophies of all other cultures, with enough time and contact. But understanding does not necessarily connote agreement. And any idea is not universal to all cultures, if there are cultures that don't subscribe to it. Describing them with racist language does not make their perspective on the human condition any less valid. Though if you think anyone whose beliefs differ from yours must be strange and primitive, it goes a long way toward explaining why you believe there are moral universals. One cannot understand that which one willingly chooses to dismiss or ignore.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Is there a Universal Moral Conscience (UMC)? ....

My understanding is that wisdom, called prajnana in Sanskrit (Hinduism and Buddhism), is universal. Wisdom is the basis of learning.

There is always a choice between following a path of pleasure-survival or a path of goodness. It is wisdom that allows one to overcome the instinctive pull towards path of pleasure-survival and embrace the path of goodness.

The wisdom is unborn and universal, albeit veiled to more or lesser extent in living beings. Animals are largely instinctive. Humans (and probably some animals too) have the ability to discriminate between meeting pleasures and lasting good.
 
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