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How did Isaiah 52:13 predict that the Messiah Jesus would be crucified "lifted up"?

Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
74x12 said:
They are not contortions. I disagree there. Once it's revealed to someone and they really see it. Then it's really obvious.
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Only if they first believe that they should be seeing it there. We've heard some of these contortions here on RF and the non-Christians remain unconvinced. So really what you're doing is trusting what you think you hear your god saying, over what G-d clearly said.


What about Moses? Did everything happen to him just that way or did they make that up also? Maybe Abraham is different than the scriptures say. Where does all this end?

My point is not to tear your faith down but to simply point out that you also have to believe. That is if you actually believe at all. I realize there are some Jews who do not believe the scriptures but practice anyway.
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I'm so confused. Why are you making an argument to believe in Muhammad if you're a Christian?
 
74x12

74x12

Well-Known Member
Tumah said:
Only if they first believe that they should be seeing it there. We've heard some of these contortions here on RF and the non-Christians remain unconvinced. So really what you're doing is trusting what you think you hear your god saying, over what G-d clearly said.
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While we're discussing alleged contortions of the scriptures what about the Talmud?

I've said this before, but the point of keeping the prophecies of the Messiah obscure was so that they could be fulfilled.
Tumah said:
I'm so confused. Why are you making an argument to believe in Muhammad if you're a Christian?
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Whatever comes after cannot contradict what came before it. Mohammad contradicts the scriptures. Muslims claim the scriptures have been altered(citing Jeremiah 8:8) and therefore only the Quran is trustworthy.
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
74x12 said:
While we're discussing alleged contortions of the scriptures what about the Talmud?
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Ah! Is this the famous tu quoque fallacy?

Ok. So let's get some examples where the Talmud contorts the Scriptures.

I've said this before, but the point of keeping the prophecies of the Messiah obscure was so that they could be fulfilled.
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That's a convenient excuse. I wondder why an all-powerful G-d can't create prophecies that are easy to understand and able to be fulfilled. You know. Like He did in all the other prophecies.

Whatever comes after cannot contradict what came before it. Mohammad contradicts the scriptures. Muslims claim the scriptures have been altered(citing Jeremiah 8:8) and therefore only the Quran is trustworthy.
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That's a great rule. It also rules out Christianity, since it contradicts Jewish Scriptures or alters them.
 
G

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Member
74x12 said:
Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. (Isaiah 52:13)

and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.' (John 12:32)
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This is a correct correlation. Both Scriptures mean Jesus was exalted in both humiliation and triumph. Christ conquered death in that He suffered dying death, as well as in that He resurrected from the dead.

Both Scriptures suppose Christ both being lifted up Crucified Sacrifice The Lamb of God, and being lifted up The Risen, Seated at God's Own Right Hand His Heavenly The Glory of God His Majesty both LORD AND GOD.

At no moment in time or esteem was Jesus the one, more or less than, the other!
 
W

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
74x12 said:
Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. (Isaiah 52:13)

and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.' (John 12:32)
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He will sprinkle many nations sounds like sacrificial sprinting with blood... fitting of Jesus

He will shut the mouths of Kings... that reminds me of Isaiah 6 where Isaiah's mouth was shut in a sense, humbled before God
 
74x12

74x12

Well-Known Member
whirlingmerc said:
He will sprinkle many nations sounds like sacrificial sprinting with blood... fitting of Jesus

He will shut the mouths of Kings... that reminds me of Isaiah 6 where Isaiah's mouth was shut in a sense, humbled before God
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That's true.

Moses sprinkled blood on the people and the altar etc. to confirm the old Covenant. (Ex. 24-5-6, 8) In Isaiah 52, we see that Jesus also will “sprinkle” many nations. Speaking of His own blood of the new Covenant/Testament that is shed for many. (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 11:25)

Even while God was giving the Law to Moses; God revealed to Moses how He would send another prophet in the future that would be like Moses. The Messiah is this prophet. He is “like” Moses because He is the mediator of a Covenant just as Moses was. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19, Hebrews 12:24)
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
This is a correct correlation. Both Scriptures mean Jesus was exalted in both humiliation and triumph. Christ conquered death in that He suffered dying death, as well as in that He resurrected from the dead.

Both Scriptures suppose Christ both being lifted up Crucified Sacrifice The Lamb of God, and being lifted up The Risen, Seated at God's Own Right Hand His Heavenly The Glory of God His Majesty both LORD AND GOD.

At no moment in time or esteem was Jesus the one, more or less than, the other!
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Right on. A lot of people don't seem to get it when you try to explain that yes scriptures are correctly interpreted in multiple ways.
 
W

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
74x12 said:
That's true.

Moses sprinkled blood on the people and the altar etc. to confirm the old Covenant. (Ex. 24-5-6, 8) In Isaiah 52, we see that Jesus also will “sprinkle” many nations. Speaking of His own blood of the new Covenant/Testament that is shed for many. (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 11:25)

Even while God was giving the Law to Moses; God revealed to Moses how He would send another prophet in the future that would be like Moses. The Messiah is this prophet. He is “like” Moses because He is the mediator of a Covenant just as Moses was. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19, Hebrews 12:24)

Right on. A lot of people don't seem to get it when you try to explain that yes scriptures are correctly interpreted in multiple ways.
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Isaiah 53 says at least 7 ways the suffering servant will die.

In fact Isaiah 53 makes each of the points at least 7 times that the Messiah will be rejected, suffer for sins, die and overcome death. Suffering for sins is made at least 10 times....

I do like that as that chapter approaches, God raises the question around chapter 51 'How did Abraham become righteous?' and the answer as every 8 year old in Sunday or Sabbath school would know... by faith... he believed God and it was counted as righteousness.
 
Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

One
Staff member
Premium Member
This convo is experiencing continental drift. The birth of a child can be a sign without the mother being a virgin. In the case of the child in Isaiah the timing of the birth is what's significant, but the birth itself is normal not speeded up. The writer says 'Before the child is born' such and such will happen. Indeed the idea of a virgin being required is introduced in the NT - but its not imposed maliciously (I presume) and is only later an issue of contest when it gets taken literally to the degree that speakers try to impose a virgin birth on the Isaiah text.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Nowhere Man said:
Sometimes I wonder how in the world a Jewish text is conducive with Jesus in any fashion.

I'm fairly sure it was referring to something else.
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I believe I am absolutely sure it is Jesus and I can't imagine anyone else that even comes close.
 
Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Muffled said:
I believe I am absolutely sure it is Jesus and I can't imagine anyone else that even comes close.
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It does become a problem when the originator say otherwise. ;0)

You have to admit Christianity is built on the foundation of other religions.

Other than interpretation, there's actually not much originality to be said of Christianity.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
74x12 said:
He didn't crucify Himself, but He laid down His life as He said.

John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
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I believe that is not the act of crucifixion but the ability to leave the body which He did. Neither the Romans nor the Jews had the power to do that.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Nowhere Man said:
It does become a problem when the originator say otherwise. ;0)

You have to admit Christianity is built on the foundation of other religions.

Other than interpretation, there's actually not much originality to be said of Christianity.
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I believe the orignator is God who does not say otherwise but I suppose you are referring to those Jews who fail to get anything right with God.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Tumah said:
No it's not. The writers of the NT fabricated a story based heavily on reinterpretations of the Tanach to lend authenticity to their narrative. The NT narrative isn't in the Tanach, the Tanach was used to derive the NT narrative. When you read the Tanach having no knowledge of the NT, you won't see any of it.
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I believe Jews don't see anything they don't want to see.

I don't think its strange that the two are associated. When I see pictures of the World Trade Towers falling. I don't say the news written about it must have been engineered to describe something that never happened.
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
Muffled said:
I believe Jews don't see anything they don't want to see.

I don't think its strange that the two are associated. When I see pictures of the World Trade Towers falling. I don't say the news written about it must have been engineered to describe something that never happened.
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The thing is, in your analogy, you didn't see the WTC towers falling. You heard someone tell you that they fell and then you read a book about falling WTC towers.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Tumah said:
The thing is, in your analogy, you didn't see the WTC towers falling. You heard someone tell you that they fell and then you read a book about falling WTC towers.
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I believe I have heard people argue away the holocaust for the same reason.

Prophecy is different. The prophet has been given information about things that hadn't happened yet. So whatever people envisioned as happening form the prophecy often turned out to be fantasy. However when the event takes place it is easy to see how it fulfilled prophecy. When the NT writers refer back to prophecy it is because they could see it was fulfilled.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Nowhere Man said:
It does become a problem when the originator say otherwise. ;0)

You have to admit Christianity is built on the foundation of other religions.

Other than interpretation, there's actually not much originality to be said of Christianity.
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I believe the originator is God and he says it is Jesus.
 
W

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Tumah said:
Only if they first believe that they should be seeing it there. We've heard some of these contortions here on RF and the non-Christians remain unconvinced. So really what you're doing is trusting what you think you hear your god saying, over what G-d clearly said.



I'm so confused. Why are you making an argument to believe in Muhammad if you're a Christian?
Click to expand...

The Messiah is to 'sprinkle many nations in Isaiah 52 and in Isaiah 51 we were just reminded Abraham was saved by faith .... all prelude to Isaiah 53

Isaiah: 'The Song of Moses and the Lamb
 
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