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How did Isaiah 52:13 predict that the Messiah Jesus would be crucified "lifted up"?

74x12

Well-Known Member
Yeah, but God’s not going to give us the knowledge we need to exegete ancient texts.
Don't tell Paul! (Galatians 1:11-12) Paul seems to have been under the illusion that God could show him many things in the scriptures. However, let's not forget that before this Paul was taught by one of the greatest Jewish teachers of his time. (Acts 22:3) Still, once He received the holy Spirit (Acts 9:17) he did not learn from humans but God. (Galatians 1:16) And he learned things that Gamaliel did not teach him nor could have done. The thing is that too many Christians are not looking for the baptism of the holy Spirit. (John 5:39)

Jesus teaches us to pray to understand the Bible. Saying not just to seek, but to ask. So searching the scriptures is well and good, but asking is also important.

Matthew 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Don't tell Paul! (Galatians 1:11-12) Paul seems to have been under the illusion that God could show him many things in the scriptures. However, let's not forget that before this Paul was taught by one of the greatest Jewish teachers of his time. (Acts 22:3) Still, once He received the holy Spirit (Acts 9:17) he did not learn from humans but God. (Galatians 1:16) And he learned things that Gamaliel did not teach him nor could have done. The thing is that too many Christians are not looking for the baptism of the holy Spirit. (John 5:39)

Jesus teaches us to pray to understand the Bible. Saying not just to seek, but to ask. So searching the scriptures is well and good, but asking is also important.

Matthew 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
I’d argue that the passage you quote has very little to do with exegeting ancient texts.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
I’d argue that the passage you quote has very little to do with exegeting ancient texts.
I believe it is applicable. Although It's obvious that's not necessarily the main thing. Yet it's a principle to go by. Basically, everyone should apply this principle in their life and if your lot in life is to be a scholar and study the scriptures then it's still for you.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I believe it is applicable. Although It's obvious that's not necessarily the main thing. Yet it's a principle to go by. Basically, everyone should apply this principle in their life and if your lot in life is to be a scholar and study the scriptures then it's still for you.
I disagree. Perspiration must precede inspiration.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, but God’s not going to give us the knowledge we need to exegete ancient texts.
Good point. I certainly don't expect to be lazy yet understand scripture. I do expect that wisdom can come to me, that I have the capacity to understand morality.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Jesus said "seek and you'll find" So it takes both hard work and prayer to understand the scriptures well.
My point is that prayer will not replace scholarship. You can’t understand what you’re reading until you know what you’re reading.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
My point is that prayer will not replace scholarship. You can’t understand what you’re reading until you know what you’re reading.
And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? (John 7:15)
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? (John 7:15)
Non sequitur. Mythic stories about godlike individuals do not speak to our very real need for scholarship.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Isaiah 53 isn’t about the coming messiah. You are back filling it with a Christian interpretation that is a misinterpretation. Don’t read it with “Jesus colored” glasses on.

. . . This is extremely disingenuous since the Masoretic Text, which everyone here is using to interpret Isaiah, is already a Jewish "interpretation" of the text. You're using Jewish colored glasses (when you use the Masoretic text) as though that's the sole meaning of the consonants, or the authorized meaning Isaiah intended. But that's not correct, since adding the points, to justify Jewish tradition, is the quintessence of using your own pretense, or tradition, as the foundational meaning of a formerly (before adding the punctuation) more flexible text.

For those unfamiliar with the ruse, Isaiah wrote with Hebrew consonants only, no punctuation, such that you have to bring a particular idea of what he's saying to the text in order to determine where word breaks, sentence breaks, punctuation and page breaks go. Even small differences can make an enormous difference in how the text is read. So some Jewish scholars, over a thousand years ago, decided, since Gentiles don't really understand Hebrew, and particularly biblical Hebrew, they would add punctuation to the text based on a Jewish interpretation of the text, such that the Gentiles would assume that was the only way to read the text, since that's how English, or German, or some non-Hebrew language functions.

To this day, most Christians assume the Masoretic text, from which their "Old Testament" is translated to English, is the lowest common denominator of Isaiah's intent. Nothing is further from the truth. The Masoretic text is a Jewish interpretation of the text. And a particular Jewish interpretation of the text, a Pharisaical Jewish interpretation of the text, i.e, the interpretation of the text that led to the crucifixion in the first place.

We're talking pretty deceptive practices here.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
It’s mythic literature. Much of the Bible is mythic.

. . . Myth is parable. Being mythical doesn't mean being fictional, or untrue. Myth is a form of archiving concepts that's the ancient equivalent of file compression on a computer. The person who knows what he's doing, and who shares the spirit of the one who compressed knowledge in mythological concepts, can unzip the myth in order to find the tremendous knowledge archived in the myth.

Take for instance the question of this very thread: how did Isaiah predict the Gospels so accurately so long before they occurred? The first requirement for answering that question is sharing the spirit that acknowledges that the word of God is just that: God's word. As such, it's only asymmetrical (bound by the arrow of time) so far as mortals are concerned. For God, the Gospels were written prior to Deutero-Isaiah and Deutero-Isaiah was written prior to the Gospels. God isn't subject to the asymmetrical arrow of time and nor is his revelation.

Though God's revelation isn't fully asymmetrical (bound by the arrow of time) he has nevertheless written the Torah in a manner such that it can't be fully unzipped until after the events hidden in the myths, compressed in the myths, have actually occurred historically. And the primary key to unzipping the Torah is the crucifixion. Until the crucifixion and resurrection the primary knowledge of the Torah is compressed in the myth of the children of Israel, their plight, slavery, exodus, and journey. After the crucifixion and resurrection we can go back and unzip the myths and see precisely how Isaiah predicted the future using not the future, but the past, the Torah (Pentateuch).

The Gospel message is compressed in the Pentateuch for those who, like Isaiah, know how to unzip the myths contained in the Pentateuch. Every element in Deutero-Isaiah is found already in the Pentateuch. Isaiah just had the key to partially unzipping the compressed files (deciphering the myth).



John
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
. . . Myth is parable. Being mythical doesn't mean being fictional, or untrue. Myth is a form of archiving concepts that's the ancient equivalent of file compression on a computer. The person who knows what he's doing, and who shares the spirit of the one who compressed knowledge in mythological concepts, can unzip the myth in order to find the tremendous knowledge archived in the myth.

Take for instance the question of this very thread: how did Isaiah predict the Gospels so accurately so long before they occurred? The first requirement for answering that question is sharing the spirit that acknowledges that the word of God is just that: God's word. As such, it's only asymmetrical (bound by the arrow of time) so far as mortals are concerned. For God, the Gospels were written prior to Deutero-Isaiah and Deutero-Isaiah was written prior to the Gospels. God isn't subject to the asymmetrical arrow of time and nor is his revelation.

Though God's revelation isn't fully asymmetrical (bound by the arrow of time) he has nevertheless written the Torah in a manner such that it can't be fully unzipped until after the events hidden in the myths, compressed in the myths, have actually occurred historically. And the primary key to unzipping the Torah is the crucifixion. Until the crucifixion and resurrection the primary knowledge of the Torah is compressed in the myth of the children of Israel, their plight, slavery, exodus, and journey. After the crucifixion and resurrection we can go back and unzip the myths and see precisely how Isaiah predicted the future using not the future, but the past, the Torah (Pentateuch).

The Gospel message is compressed in the Pentateuch for those who, like Isaiah, know how to unzip the myths contained in the Pentateuch. Every element in Deutero-Isaiah is found already in the Pentateuch. Isaiah just had the key to partially unzipping the compressed files (deciphering the myth).



John
Now this makes sense. There is a difference between claiming that Isaiah foreshadows “the gospel message” and denoting Isaiah as a “gospel.”
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Now this makes sense. There is a difference between claiming that Isaiah foreshadows “the gospel message” and denoting Isaiah as a “gospel.”

. . . Deutero-Isaiah got his ideas from the Pentatuech. He unzipped the Pentateuch in a very brilliant way (which, btw, I'm able to elucidate). ------But the Gospels are the source for the Pentatuechal myths Isaiah unwrapped. Only a believer in the divine authorship of the Pentateuch is able to swallow the idea that the Gospels are the source for the myths found in the Pentateuch. So it's only believers in the divine authority of the scripture who will appreciate anything I have to say on the subject.



John
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
. . . Deutero-Isaiah got his ideas from the Pentatuech. He unzipped the Pentateuch in a very brilliant way (which, btw, I'm able to elucidate). ------But the Gospels are the source for the Pentatuechal myths Isaiah unwrapped. Only a believer in the divine authorship of the Pentateuch is able to swallow the idea that the Gospels are the source for the myths found in the Pentateuch. So it's only believers in the divine authority of the scripture who will appreciate anything I have to say on the subject.



John
Nope. Not buying that. The texts are what they are: products of human beings, written within linear time. What you’re saying is not in the realm of empirical evidence. I believe what you’re saying may be true — that God, Who is existence beyond our reckoning of time, allowed this foreshadowing to be known to the authors of Isaiah, but belief = bias, and bias does not make for good exegesis. We can only read out of the texts what is there, and what we believe about them makes it all too easy for us to read into them what is not there. We begin by being clear about what the texts are and what they say. Then we move to faith claims about them based on a viable exegesis of them.

What you’re saying may be true, but there is 0 evidence to support that claim. It’s a faith statement, not exegetical proof. Although that claim is intriguing.
 
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