The ONLY religious question!

Hockeycowboy said:

Really? I thought your powers of perception were better than that.

Oh, wait...you’re one of them ‘wise and intellectual’ ones, right?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean by "wise and intellectual." But you posted that Luke 10:21 provided an answer to my question in the OP. Luke 10:21 says:

"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."

But I ask myself this: were the wise and prudent not once babes, and will some of the babes (certainly not all) eventually become wise and prudent? And will it only be those babes that DON'T become wise and prudent that will still retain something like "the truth" that God seems to have hidden from so many?

And in what way, exactly, would you suggest that God might think all that was "good in [his] sight?"

If you want to quote scripture, I think it would only be fair of you to do the hard work of providing your own exegesis of what you think it means, and why you think it supports your particular religious viewpoint.

Skwim said:

It's a common conceit that

As I see Evangelicalhumanist's rely to your, "Because God only speaks to those who can hear...or should I say want to hear." it addresses the too often habit of Christians taking it upon themselves to decide what god is, does, feels, likes, dislikes, expects, will do, won't do, etc. etc. without scriptural evidence. They construct the god they need and run with it. Preachers are particularly fond of the practice; proclaiming this, that, and the other thing about god simply because it sounds good and resonates with their congregants. And sometimes it takes on a life of its own, repeated down through the years and taken as fact. No one questions it because it suits their needs to believe it's true.

I'm not saying that you don't have scriptural evidence that god only speaks to those who want to hear, but I don't recall any any. So, if you do how about sharing.

.

Click to expand...

I agree

Evangelicalhumanist said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "wise and intellectual." But you posted that Luke 10:21 provided an answer to my question in the OP. Luke 10:21 says:

"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."

But I ask myself this: were the wise and prudent not once babes, and will some of the babes (certainly not all) eventually become wise and prudent? And will it only be those babes that DON'T become wise and prudent that will still retain something like "the truth" that God seems to have hidden from so many?

And in what way, exactly, would you suggest that God might think all that was "good in [his] sight?"

If you want to quote scripture, I think it would only be fair of you to do the hard work of providing your own exegesis of what you think it means, and why you think it supports your particular religious viewpoint.

Click to expand...

Jesus doesn't mean, 'be literal babies'. C'mon. We're counseled not to think like children (1 Corinthians 14:20); rather, have the qualities that children have, like 'humility', and 'meekness'. -- Matthew 18:2-4.

Scorn never led anyone to have an open mind.

Hockeycowboy said:

If you’re intentionally being funny, lol.

But if you’re being sarcastic....the Scripture proves it’s value, doesn’t it?

But you’re not alone.....all those who don’t worship the Father solely (John 4:23-24; John 17:3) , and think it’s ok to fight against their brothers in a conflict (1 John 3:10-15), ain’t got it either.

Click to expand...

It was a little of both, to be honest.

And it is very interesting that you see this type of banter as "fighting" and/or "conflict." Do you feel we were "fighting?" Did you feel as though my words were said to provoke "conflict?" I was mostly rolling my eyes at your post, and was attempting to relate that the scripture you quoted was a bit goofy in my opinion.

If you want to know the whole truth - it is an obvious play to have written things exactly like that bit of scripture into a text that you know is completely outlandish, and yet wish for people to accept and believe in - like The Bible. It is surreptitiously insulting anyone who does not buy in to the theology and belief set by calling them dumber than babies because they don't believe, even though they may be wise/knowledgeable/experienced in any other area. That IS what this passage is doing... attempting to make anyone feel that they are missing out, and letting them know that they are being judged by their peers (by YOU) as being in the wrong and that any of their acquired knowledge is inconsequential if they are not "right with God."

The writers of The Bible attempted to mask their intentions in flowery language and specious quips that, on the surface, may appear to be "wisdom" - but are exactly as I described above. An attempt to get people to follow lest they be considered "sub-par."

A Vestigial Mote said:

And it is very interesting that you see this type of banter as "fighting" and/or "conflict." Do you feel we were "fighting?"

Click to expand...

No, I meant literally killing each other. Most professed Christians have supported their national brotherhood, forsaking their spiritual brotherhood, to their spiritual detriment. Christians just can't take lives in war, or support such actions, and stay loyal to God. -- 1 John 3:10-15

Hockeycowboy said:

No, I meant literally killing each other. Most professed Christians have supported their national brotherhood, forsaking their spiritual brotherhood, to their spiritual detriment. Christians just can't take lives in war, or support such actions, and stay loyal to God. -- 1 John 3:10-15

Click to expand...

So my words were killing you? I am now completely lost. We go from me joking-around/challenging your quote about God providing His wisdom to "babes" vs. "wise men" (whatever EITHER of those are supposed to signify) to you talking about conflict and fighting... and finally now to you talking about killing. And believers wonder why nonbelievers have trouble with some of their "logic." What in the hell is going on?

A Vestigial Mote said:

So my words were killing you? I am now completely lost. We go from me joking-around/challenging your quote about God providing His wisdom to "babes" vs. "wise men" (whatever EITHER of those are supposed to signify) to you talking about conflict and fighting... and finally now to you talking about killing. And believers wonder why nonbelievers have trouble with some of their "logic." What in the hell is going on?

Click to expand...

Oh grief. My words weren’t directed toward you! Are you a ‘professed Christian’?

Hockeycowboy said:

Oh grief. My words weren’t directed toward you! Are you a ‘professed Christian’?

Click to expand...

I see... so you're worried about infighting among your own fellow believers. Yeah... that happens quite a bit. Killing seems a bit extreme, obviously. Especially over something so trivial as religious belief.

A Vestigial Mote said:

I see... so you're worried about infighting among your own fellow believers. Yeah... that happens quite a bit. Killing seems a bit extreme, obviously. Especially over something so trivial as religious belief.

Click to expand...

As a JW, and a follower of Christ, I don’t consider myself part of Christendom. The leaders of that institution do not follow Christ, they are just too blood guilty. Mahatma Gandhi once told Lord Irwin (I think), “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians.”

Jesus told his disciples, “You are my friends, if you do what I command you.” — John 15:14.

And ‘loving your brothers’ is a command. — John 13:34-35.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

Sorry, had to post this, after having just had a rant in another thread...

To everyone who has a religious belief that the hold to be "the Truth," or "the only way to salvation," I want to ask this one simple question:

What the hell do you think you know that everybody else doesn't? How can you be so blindly stupid as to imagine for yourself a God that could make his truth known to you -- but was utterly powerless to make it known to everybody else?

Click to expand...

This has nothing to do with God's ability, but rather by everyone's priorities.

Some people make the discovery of spiritual truth a priority in their life and God has promised that to those who ask, they shall receive and those who seek shall find and those who knock shall be opened unto.

Then we have people who could care less about finding out what is or is not true and would rather spend their time complaining about those more motivated than themselves to discover the truth.

Neither of the actions performed by these types people reflect God's power, ability or lack thereof.

Prestor John said:

Then we have people who could care less about finding out what is or is not true and would rather spend their time complaining about those more motivated than themselves to discover the truth.

Click to expand...

You do realize that some nonbelievers who have actually mulled things over quite a bit and did not come to their non-belief lightly probably think THIS EXACT SAME THING about believers, right? In other words, I could have made this exact same statement and been completely sincere in stating it... about you.

Prestor John said:

Sorry, had to post this, after having just had a rant in another thread...

To everyone who has a religious belief that the hold to be "the Truth," or "the only way to salvation," I want to ask this one simple question:

What the hell do you think you know that everybody else doesn't? How can you be so blindly stupid as to imagine for yourself a God that could make his truth known to you -- but was utterly powerless to make it known to everybody else?

Click to expand...

This has nothing to do with God's ability, but rather by everyone's priorities.

Some people make the discovery of spiritual truth a priority in their life and God has promised that to those who ask, they shall receive and those who seek shall find and those who knock shall be opened unto.

Then we have people who could care less about finding out what is or is not true and would rather spend their time complaining about those more motivated than themselves to discover the truth.

Neither of the actions performed by these types people reflect God's power, ability or lack thereof.

Click to expand...

Fascinating, but pretty much meaningless. It's a pretty easy thing to say that if you ask, you'll receive, or if you knock, it'll be opened. It's a little harder to demonstrate. And in fact, is almost never demonstrated, but simply accepted (on the few occasions that it seems to happen).

See, most really old, or sick, or dying people actually die -- despite the prayers of those who love them. Fifteen young people died in Saskatchewan a couple of days ago, even though nobody (that I know of) wanted them to die. A lot of people are hurting immensely as a result. God, for whatever reason, doesn't seem to have participated. (Or at least, there's no evidence of His involvement, and if there were -- since they died -- I think it would have to be interpreted somewhat negatively, don't you?)

But you seem focused on "truth" in your reply. Let me ask you this: is "truth" really what you look for, or would you much prefer comfortable assurances?

This really has not logic.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

Fascinating, but pretty much meaningless. It's a pretty easy thing to say that if you ask, you'll receive, or if you knock, it'll be opened. It's a little harder to demonstrate. And in fact, is almost never demonstrated, but simply accepted (on the few occasions that it seems to happen).

Click to expand...

Is this because it is hard for you? Or just your personal viewpoint? Because I don't seem to have that difficulty.

See, most really old, or sick, or dying people actually die -- despite the prayers of those who love them.

Click to expand...

Yes... the older one gets, the closer you are to dying. Like.... we ALL die. One can pray all they want but where did the Bible say your flesh will live forever?

So, praying, is qualified Biblically and logically.

Fifteen young people died in Saskatchewan a couple of days ago, even though nobody (that I know of) wanted them to die. A lot of people are hurting immensely as a result. God, for whatever reason, doesn't seem to have participated. (Or at least, there's no evidence of His involvement, and if there were -- since they died -- I think it would have to be interpreted somewhat negatively, don't you?)

Click to expand...

This is... well.... ridiculous.

If one is to look at this Biblically, then there is a Devil too who kills, steals and destroys. So, yes, God didn't participate in that action. So... is there really a point here? You certainly haven't made one yet.

But you seem focused on "truth" in your reply. Let me ask you this: is "truth" really what you look for, or would you much prefer comfortable assurances?

Click to expand...

Yes... I seek truth. Jesus said "I AM the truth" and so I seek Him. When you KNOW truth, there are assurances. You don't believe so... do you have an assurance or even a comfortable one that you will be at God's throne?

Prestor John said:

Some people make the discovery of spiritual truth a priority in their life and God has promised that to those who ask, they shall receive and those who seek shall find and those who knock shall be opened unto.

Then we have people who could care less about finding out what is or is not true and would rather spend their time complaining about those more motivated than themselves to discover the truth..

Click to expand...

And, hardly surprisingly, those very people who "ask" find something, and those who knock think something's opened up -- and lo and behold, whatever it is they imagined entirely on their own they assume to be what you refer to as "what is or is not true."

And the even less surprising thing is how often they are, sadly, wrong.

Just as a f'rinstance, Muslims knock and discover that because the God who speaks to them is one, indivisible, the notion of Jesus Christ as a divinity simply doesn't work. Now, you might suppose that even though they knocked, God, in this case, decided to ignore them. But then that would make your first claim totally false. And if God didn't ignore them, then that would make the Christian claim totally false.

You do see, I hope, the slight dilemma.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

Sorry, had to post this, after having just had a rant in another thread...

To everyone who has a religious belief that the hold to be "the Truth," or "the only way to salvation," I want to ask this one simple question:

What the hell do you think you know that everybody else doesn't? How can you be so blindly stupid as to imagine for yourself a God that could make his truth known to you -- but was utterly powerless to make it known to everybody else?

Click to expand...

Interesting. It is about finding stuff. If you do not look for stuff, you will not find stuff.

I am not going to read the whole thread and that @kjw47 is 100% fact.

This is important. If you quit looking before you find the stuff you won't find it.

KenS said:

This really has not logic.


Is this because it is hard for you? Or just your personal viewpoint? Because I don't seem to have that difficulty.

Click to expand...

Yes, you knock and question, and you think you get answers: my only question for you is this -- how do you know that they are God's answers, and not your own?

Yes... the older one gets, the closer you are to dying. Like.... we ALL die. One can pray all they want but where did the Bible say your flesh will live forever?

So, praying, is qualified Biblically and logically.

Click to expand...

Then why pray? Since you've just guaranteed that your prayers will play no part in any outcome at all, why bother?

This is... well.... ridiculous.

If one is to look at this Biblically, then there is a Devil too who kills, steals and destroys. So, yes, God didn't participate in that action. So... is there really a point here? You certainly haven't made one yet.

Click to expand...

No, it is NOT ridiculous. What is ridiculous is to say that there is that Devil and that an omnipotent and omniscient God can't do diddly squat about it. Omnipotence and "Can't" are polar opposites. God being immanent and ever-present is incompatible with "God didn't participate." God, as defined, cannot NOT participate.

Religious "truth" makes me laugh -- they make up all this guff about God, and then when it doesn't work out the way that their guff guarantees it must, then they create excuses. And that, by the way, is the very definition of "theodicy." And every Christian theodicy known to man is nothing more than an attempt to reconcile and excuse what can't be reconcile and excuses, given the definition of the Christian God.

Yes... I seek truth. Jesus said "I AM the truth" and so I seek Him. When you KNOW truth, there are assurances. You don't believe so... do you have an assurance or even a comfortable one that you will be at God's throne?

Click to expand...

I wonder what the fascination is with being at "God's throne?" Does being abject make one feel comfortable and protected? Given what I've observed, it wouldn't work for me.

savagewind said:

Interesting. It is about finding stuff. If you do not look for stuff, you will not find stuff.

Click to expand...

I suspect you may enjoy using multiple definitions of "finding." If I find a conch shell on the beach, it is not too unreasonable to suspect that my find has something to do with reality. If I look for an answer to why my girlfriend left me, and arrive at the conclusion, "because I'm not rich enough," I may well be deluding myself.

When you "look for stuff" about God, how do you know that what you've "found" is any more about God than it is about what you wanted to find?

Evangelicalhumanist said:

I suspect you may enjoy using multiple definitions of "finding." If I find a conch shell on the beach, it is not too unreasonable to suspect that my find has something to do with reality. If I look for an answer to why my girlfriend left me, and arrive at the conclusion, "because I'm not rich enough," I may well be deluding myself.

When you "look for stuff" about God, how do you know that what you've "found" is any more about God than it is about what you wanted to find?

Click to expand...

I do not know. But before, I was blind and now I see. I do not know how to do that. If I did, I would do it to you and to everyone else.