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A Moral question on the nature of "Forgiveness"
- Thread starter Father
- Start date
Hmmmmm.... no
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Yes
Satan would have had to be made differently than the good angels to explain why Pride would enter one of their hearts and the others would be completely obedient.
It's one of the most interesting things I find about the Yazidi faith, they have the same beliefs in the fall of the devil as Christianity and Islam, but they believe the devil eventually repented of his sins, worked to regain his favor, and is now God's favorite angel.
I find it's a vary interesting take on the story of the fall of the Devil, but then again I'm a sucker for redemption stories.
I think you misspelled "pointlessly edgy".
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Jesus would not have died for you if he didnt foe give you if you have murdered.
You are saying murderers cannot come to christ.
He who does not ask forgiveness from christ and continues to hate his brother by default does not believe in christ offer of forgiveness for sins. Those who forgive themselves and their brother and find compassion and unconditional love to love his brother...
..why and how is this sin forgiven by christ death warrant eternal punishment in the next life rather than consequences in this life?
The only unforgivable sin is rejecting christ.
Isn't this post like saying "you are a corporation and your goal is to be sure everyone in the corporation has good health insurance so based on that". I mean I understand the confusion since church is confusing but I am not sure confusion matched is much clarity.
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
I didn't say a word. I quoted scripture. It says nothing to you that it doesn't say to me. All I do is show you what our holy scripture teaches.
While some preach eternal suffering, according to my studies, those who are damned simply return to non-existence for all eternity. There is no heaven or hell in death; there is only the not being in death.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
The gospel says christ forgives those who sinned. The only exception is those who reject christ. It makes sense. Murder, if one asks forgiveness, is forgiven by christ blood on the cross. Murder, if continued with no desire for forgiveness the person will be stuck in sin.
Why would a sinner be christian if he knew some sins are christ saved him from can still warrant eternal punishment?
Thats like saying sin has control over christ.
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Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
You say things, but none are supported by scripture.
If a person has committed murder, the only thing s/he can do is to do his or her best to find favor in the eyes of God so that perhaps there might be ameliorating circumstances, mental illness, or some such. As mentioned, killing in war may (may) not be considered murder, just as accidental killing, manslaughter also may be excused depending.
I can provide scriptures for the above, though it may take me some time to find them. The point is, all things that have to do with the Christian faith must, MUST, be rooted in scripture.
Here is one:
Matthew 7:21-23 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
Matthew 7:13-14 13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.
hmmm.... no...
It says "He was perfect UNTIL iniquity was found..."
God made him perfect like man until one decides to sin. Can't change what is written.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
You have to read my full post. Forgiveness is through Christ Passion. By denying a murderer the forgiveness of christ, is denying that person's salvation. The only sin that is not forgivable is rejection.
Mathew 12:31 I can't say it better than this.
And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Why would and how could he find favor if he cannot be forgiven for his crime?
See above.
Yes. I mentioned this. So, you're saying murder just as blasphemy is not forgivable?
And that those who murder can no longer find trust in god to change their ways?
You have to talk in your own words. I don't know John, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. They have passed away so we only have our own interpretation of what they said. So, what is your view in your own words?
--Edit Also, saying murder is not forgivable is saying this sin controls the christ and his role of saving people from all sins but one. Murder is not one of them.
Mathew 12:31 I can't say it better than this.
And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Why would and how could he find favor if he cannot be forgiven for his crime?
See above.
Yes. I mentioned this. So, you're saying murder just as blasphemy is not forgivable?
John 3:18 "There is no eternal doom awaiting those who trust him to save them. But those who don't trust him have already been tried and condemned for not believing the only Son of God."
And that those who murder can no longer find trust in god to change their ways?
You have to talk in your own words. I don't know John, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. They have passed away so we only have our own interpretation of what they said. So, what is your view in your own words?
--Edit Also, saying murder is not forgivable is saying this sin controls the christ and his role of saving people from all sins but one. Murder is not one of them.
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Spiderman
Veteran Member
Iniquity would never have been found in him and he would not have been inclined towards pride and Rebellion if he had been made exactly like the angels that were perfectly obedient.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Mark 3:28-29
"Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--
Luke 12:10 "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.
Matthew 12:31-32
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
2. Luke 12:9-10 But anyone who denies me here on earth will be denied before God’s angels. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven
@Grandliseur
The verses you quoted are the punishments for those who have not repent of their sins such as murder. When they repent, they are forgiven. When they are forgiven,
why would you say they are not? That is like saying christ blood does not save all sins just a selective few.
"Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--
Luke 12:10 "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.
Matthew 12:31-32
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
2. Luke 12:9-10 But anyone who denies me here on earth will be denied before God’s angels. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven
@Grandliseur
The verses you quoted are the punishments for those who have not repent of their sins such as murder. When they repent, they are forgiven. When they are forgiven,
why would you say they are not? That is like saying christ blood does not save all sins just a selective few.
Jumi
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's healthy to dislike Christians, Muslims or Jews, even if you dislike their religious views. As it goes, most are decent folk in any religion or no religion.
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
Very nice. The problem is that the apostles refined what Jesus said in several places. But, perhaps, some of those who committed this deed might be forgiven based on the scriptures you nicely provided.
I suppose we shall have to await the Judge's final word in this then. One thing is sure, the wicked shall not be forgiven unless they turn around, repent and obey Christ and his God.
God doesn't make robots.... The are all PERFECTLY OBEDIENT until they decided not to.
Free will is still free will.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Some angels were inclined to be faithful, other Angels were inclined toward pride and Rebellion. The fault is God's that's some angels desired to be faithful and other Angels desire to Rebel.
The angels that were inclined toward pride and Rebellion were clearly made different than the Angels who chose to be faithful. One of them had sinful inclinations , the others did not.
I already know I don't get to choose my sinful inclinations. It's just something I have but can choose whether or not to act out on them, but I don't choose to be inclined that way.
Sort of like a homosexual cannot just choose to be a heterosexual. It's simply how God made them. If God wanted them to have a healthy sexuality he would simply give it to them.
God is the one who is responsible for sinful inclinations.
Where is your scriptural support for this position?
Spiderman
Veteran Member
It's obvious.
Where is your scriptural support for stating otherwise.
Where is your scriptural support for believing that everything a person believes must have scriptural support??
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
Here the problem also comes down to what constitutes blasphemy. In the OT we see that many were killed by God for not having faith.
As I already posted, your scriptures made me see that the teaching is not absolute in regard to John's statement. I appreciate being reminded once in a while that there are things giving the Judge leeway to forgive if this is warranted.