A Moral question on the nature of "Forgiveness"

[Grandliseur]

I'ma come back to this in a little bit. The beginning, that is saying that if I were christian (a practicing one), and I commited murder or child melestation I am not longer christian and no longer saved. That, or christ died for nothing. If the death of a person can lead you to eternal death but the death of a savior can lead to eternal life, wouldn't it make sense for me, if I were a murderer, to repent to exchange the death I took/my sin for the death-resurrection he gave me when he died on the cross?

I'm totally missing something. I keep listening to ex catholics who say Catholicism condemns people to hell. This gave me a whole new perspective on that. Catholics require you to repent if you murdered someone because yes, it is the gravest sin and yes it can be forgive (as already quoted).

So, I would really have to read that because jesus dying for 98% of sins sounds kind of odd to me to say the least.

I found a scripture I wanted, though it took a while:

Isaiah 59:2 but your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he doth not hear. 3 For your hands are stained with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips speak lies, your tongue muttereth unrighteousness:​

Serious sin separates a person from God so that he no longer listen to that person's prayers.

As you saw in the prior scriptures, a person must repent and turn around away from their former wicked life, to lead a pure life in Christ. If a person is found guilty (refers to Christians only?) of serious deliberate practice of sin, damnation occurs and no further repentance is permitted:

Heb 10:26 For where we sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains any sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and heat of fire about to devour the adversaries. 28 Any one that has disregarded Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much worse punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and esteemed the blood of the covenant, whereby he has been sanctified, common, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?​

But, as it says to us, some of us were immoral, etc. before becoming Christians, and this is forgiven is the person turns around.

Thus, Jesus' forgiveness of our sins is not just all things. There is a sin that leads to death. Also, all serious sin is punished:

Heb 12: 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, wrestling against sin. 5 And ye have quite forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when reproved by him; 6 for whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives. 7 Ye endure for chastening, God conducts himself towards you as towards sons; for who is the son that the father chastens not?​

Remember also the scriptures from Ps 62:12 and Proverbs 11:31!

 

[Grandliseur]

sin that leads to eternal death is blasphemy of the holy spirit.

This sin has many forms; it is not just a verbal blasphemy. It includes a serious disregard for things holy and a life in sin. That too becomes blasphemy.

death in which is not covered by the death and resurrection of christ.

That is what it implies.

Look at this:

Ps 69:26-28, For they have pursued him Thou hast smitten, And recount of the pain of Thy pierced ones. 27Give punishment for their iniquity, And they enter not into Thy righteousness. 28They are blotted out of the book of life, And with the righteous are not written. 29And I am afflicted and pained, Thy salvation, O God, doth set me on high. (YLT)

Ps 9:5, Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever. (YLT)​

That is not unconditional love.

There is no unconditional love. Love is always conditional.

​

 

[Unveiled Artist]

All sins hide Christians (non-christians unfortunately are not see favorable by god even though he sent his son to die for all) face from god. My murdering someone or stealing a pocket book are both sins because regardless of what I did, they both went against god's commandments.

As you saw in the prior scriptures, a person must repent and turn around away from their former wicked life, to lead a pure life in Christ

That would mean, if I repent, none of these verses apply to me anymore?

Heb 10:26 For where we sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains any sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and heat of fire about to devour the adversaries.

If the person keeps sinning without repentance, yes. It would be a contradiction to say otherwise. When one repents, they are making a vow to change their ways to not sin. Yet, if they sin again since they are not perfect it means they are growing. As long as they are keeping their eye on god, why would anyone say they have the risk of losing their repentance?

Unless they willingly or do so on purpose without wanting to repent.

Isaiah 59:2 but your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he doth not hear. 3 For your hands are stained with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips speak lies, your tongue muttereth unrighteousness:

Those who have not repent fall into this category. Unless you are saying you are no longer a sinner (which one Christian said this; the whole chat room paused for a minute in shock), I can only see this applying to people who do not want to follow god not those who sin, repent, and keep a relationship with him.

Serious sin separates a person from God so that he no longer listen to that person's prayers.

Serious sin does separate one from god. However, if god does not hear his prayers, how can he repent?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There is no unconditional love. Love is always conditional.

Bingo! We totally disagree at least by religious standpoint at the least.

My question is, why would god say his son died for all sinners when he only meant those who commited X crimes but not Y crimes?

It seems like your definition of sin only includes 98% of sins. The other two blasphemy and murder, for example, christ doesn't forgive.

I never read that in the bible and never experienced that as a christian. I'm following your logic but I can't see the sense in it compared to what I know and what we quoted.

 

[Grandliseur]

All sins hide Christians (non-christians unfortunately are not see favorable by god even though he sent his son to die for all) face from god. My murdering someone or stealing a pocket book are both sins because regardless of what I did, they both went against god's commandments.



That would mean, if I repent, none of these verses apply to me anymore?



If the person keeps sinning without repentance, yes. It would be a contradiction to say otherwise. When one repents, they are making a vow to change their ways to not sin. Yet, if they sin again since they are not perfect it means they are growing. As long as they are keeping their eye on god, why would anyone say they have the risk of losing their repentance?

Unless they willingly or do so on purpose without wanting to repent.



Those who have not repent fall into this category. Unless you are saying you are no longer a sinner (which one Christian said this; the whole chat room paused for a minute in shock), I can only see this applying to people who do not want to follow god not those who sin, repent, and keep a relationship with him.



Serious sin does separate one from god. However, if god does not hear his prayers, how can he repent?

The only thing we humans can do is to assume that God is going to forgive us. Most have never killed, most have never done much evil. If a person has become alienated from God due to poor choices, and realize this, turns around, begs forgiveness in prayer, being serious about this, lives a holy life (according to the NT rules), wouldn't God see this! If the person is serious, God may start listening to prayers.

We should all remember that Moses killed (though it might have been considered an act of war), David killed, sinned seriously, and was forgiven though seriously punished.
So, the question we should ask ourselves is - have we sinned like that?
If not, and we repent, for sure there will be someone to listen; that does not mean punishment and discipline doesn't come with it.

The thing about the sin to death, only the Judge can really say if it is that.

 

[Grandliseur]

Bingo! We totally disagree at least by religious standpoint at the least.

My question is, why would god say his son died for all sinners when he only meant those who commited X crimes but not Y crimes?

It seems like your definition of sin only includes 98% of sins. The other two blasphemy and murder, for example, christ doesn't forgive.

I never read that in the bible and never experienced that as a christian. I'm following your logic but I can't see the sense in it compared to what I know and what we quoted.

You got the scriptures I quoted. Collect them in a file, read them, and ponder how they fit together. I already gave you points for showing me that perhaps a murderer may be forgiven.

You can always restart a conversation once you have looked things over once more. As I said, I try not to have a personal opinion, though that isn't entirely possible. I try simply to go by scriptural harmony. I'm fallible like everybody else.

 

[Willamena]

Why have none of you had the humility the decency the Heart. and soul. to forgive the one Sinner who needed it most? Satan?

I'm not a Christian, but even so (I dare say because so) I know how stupid that question is, to suggest that the tester needs to be forgiven for doing his job.

 

[Father]

I'm not a Christian, but even so (I dare say because so) I know how stupid that question is, to suggest that the tester needs to be forgiven for doing his job.

sure if satan is doing his job. most dont see him as simply doing his job but as a adversary and enemy.

 

[Willamena]

sure if satan is doing his job. most dont see him as simply doing his job but as a adversary and enemy.

Most people not schooled in the Jewish tradition from which Christianity descends, perhaps.

But most of those who are even remotely schooled know a thing or two. The adversary is his job.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The only thing we humans can do is to assume that God is going to forgive us. Most have never killed, most have never done much evil. If a person has become alienated from God due to poor choices, and realize this, turns around, begs forgiveness in prayer, being serious about this, lives a holy life (according to the NT rules), wouldn't God see this! If the person is serious, God may start listening to prayers.

We should all remember that Moses killed (though it might have been considered an act of war), David killed, sinned seriously, and was forgiven though seriously punished.
So, the question we should ask ourselves is - have we sinned like that?
If not, and we repent, for sure there will be someone to listen; that does not mean punishment and discipline doesn't come with it.

The thing about the sin to death, only the Judge can really say if it is that.

You are using kill when murder is more appropriate. The people you listed had intent. Intent is intent regardless who it came from and what it was.

If I were a murderer, since god doesnt listen to my prayers anymore, how can I repent?

 

[Father]

Most people not schooled in the Jewish tradition from which Christianity descends, perhaps.

But most of those who are even remotely schooled know a thing or two. The adversary is his job.

I take it you have been in purgatory for the last 1500 years. no such Christians are schooled. look at the Catholic church for example.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You got the scriptures I quoted. Collect them in a file, read them, and ponder how they fit together. I already gave you points for showing me that perhaps a murderer may be forgiven.

You can always restart a conversation once you have looked things over once more. As I said, I try not to have a personal opinion, though that isn't entirely possible. I try simply to go by scriptural harmony. I'm fallible like everybody else.

Ive already experienced the relationship with christ and studied the bible. I am a Buddhist; so, I can only go by one my experiences as a christian (catholics dont believe in losing your salvation) and study of scripture.

What you are saying is if I murdered, god cannot hear my prayers of repentence. The scripture you quoted refers to those who do not willingfully repent.

Where in scripture does it say a murderer cannot be repent because god does not hear his prayers?

How can you translate "forgive of all sins against the son of man" in any other way but what it says verbatum?

 

[Willamena]

I take it you have been in purgatory for the last 1500 years. no such Christians are schooled. look at the Catholic church for example.

I'm not a Christian, but I know that Satan is the adversary sent to test Christ in the desert. Just as Obi-wan Kenobi was the teacher sent to guide the student through the desert.

 

[Father]

I'm not a Christian, but I know that Satan is the adversary sent to test Christ in the desert. Just as Obi-wan Kenobi was the teacher sent to guide the student through the desert.

im not Christian. and I know most Christians don't read the bible. or correctly. or at all.

 

[Willamena]

im not Christian. and I know most Christians don't read the bible. or correctly. or at all.

And your point is...?

 

[Father]

And your point is...?

most assume Satan. is not doing a job. and is the enemy of God. which is the entire point of this proposition.
of course, Lucifer is not in the OT and satan is just a verb applied to possibly multiple things.
I am speaking from the Catholic model that 99% of Christians base theirs on. of course it's not accurate to the book. none of this has any logic to it what so ever.
and for the love of God will everyone stop hating on satan, the dude has to deal with screaming mortals all day. I would be a bit angry too. its like Hades all over again

 

[Grandliseur]

You are using kill when murder is more appropriate. The people you listed had intent.

Soldiers also have intent, and Moses was fighting to deliver his people from oppressors who were committing genocide. David is another story.

I also wanted to give you 3 more scriptures. With those you can see that verbal blaspheme is not just what it is about:

Matthew 7:21-23 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
I Corinthians 6:
9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.
Gal 5:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these : fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, 21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law. 24 And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof. 25 If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk. 26 Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another.​

With the scriptures you have received, you can as well as I see what is being said.

If you need me to spell something out, fine. I don't mind. However, it is always a matter of what is said; that should guide us in our daily lives. If your conscience doesn't condemn you, serve God and Christ, and if your sins are not of the kind that you cannot turn to God - do turn. It has nothing to do with me, but with God and his son, Christ, who forgives sins, but not everything, as you can see from scripture. And, I already conceded the point about murder; still, scripture paints a clear picture about the practice of serious sins. I am sure a lot of 'Christians' are going to get a surprise or two. But, let's hope God forgives as many as possible.

​

 

[Grandliseur]

Where in scripture does it say a murderer cannot be repent because god does not hear his prayers?

My comments and the scriptures you have seen should permit you to get a clear picture.
As to loosing one's salvation, many have.

13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. ​

Are you enduring in the Christian faith until either your death or the end of this world?
That is what you need to ask yourself.

 

[pearl]

The harder it is to forgive someone, the more likely you are better about yourself (in general) if you do forgive that person.

I agree, when forgiving people.

 

[DavidFirth]

Yes, but the one I have in mind states so exactly, that their sin prevents them from returning to God. An interesting scripture. Unfortunately, when I don's use a scripture for a few years, their location becomes foggy in my mind.

I found the following:

Isaiah 59:2 but your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he doth not hear. 3 For your hands are stained with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips speak lies, your tongue muttereth unrighteousness:
​

Matthew 6
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.


All manner of sin will be forgiven except for the sin against the Holy Spirit, which is unbelief in Christ.

You honestly don't think King David was forgiven? He committed murder and adultery, you know. God even said through Gad that He had put David's sin away.