A Moral question on the nature of "Forgiveness"

[Father]

So in Christendom essentially, all things are forgivable. and it is Your job as a Christian to convert people as so they can escape the firey brimstony damnation that is Hell. *besides the fact if most scientists went to Hell it probably has air conditioning by now*

So... Just a quick question.

Why have none of you had the humility the decency the Heart. and soul. to forgive the one Sinner who needed it most? Satan?
I Don't see anyone praying for his forgiveness. and if your sorry self can go drink margarita's and snort coke off a hooker on Saturday and be forgiven on Sunday. I am pretty sure a failed rebel that fell 1000s of years ago can be forgiven.

nor is there a stipulation that angels are not able to be forgiven or that you should only try for those who have the willingness too ask it.
because I know some of you go door to door 6am on a Monday and harass me so if you can go through that trouble you can have the decency of praying for Satan to find forgiveness.

on a side note, I am on a roll today with these morally controversial questions.
Yay me.

 

[Grandliseur]

all things are forgivable.

No, they are not. Adultery is not forgiven, the innocent party may divorce. Murder is not forgivable according to John.

the one Sinner who needed it most? Satan?

Exactly the part where forgiveness is not possible -- namely, willful deliberate sinning. It damns utterly. Also, the ransom was for humans only, so . . .

 

[Father]

No, they are not. Adultery is not forgiven, the innocent party may divorce. Murder is not forgivable according to John.


Exactly the part where forgiveness is not possible -- namely, willful deliberate sinning. It damns utterly. Also, the ransom was for humans only, so . . .

can you quote me the verse where repeated deliberate sin is unforgivable? or the verse stating it was only for humans.

 

[Father]

No, they are not. Adultery is not forgiven, the innocent party may divorce. Murder is not forgivable according to John.


Exactly the part where forgiveness is not possible -- namely, willful deliberate sinning. It damns utterly. Also, the ransom was for humans only, so . . .

even with some sin unforgivable, I doubt your compatriates would still not attempt to convert them, and if you can give that humility than not applying it to other sentient beings seems still a bit wrong.
whether it can be done or not. the attempting to try should still be within Christians vocabulary. or you can hardly call yourself Good

 

[DavidFirth]

So in Christendom essentially, all things are forgivable. and it is Your job as a Christian to convert people as so they can escape the firey brimstony damnation that is Hell. *besides the fact if most scientists went to Hell it probably has air conditioning by now*

So... Just a quick question.

Why have none of you had the humility the decency the Heart. and soul. to forgive the one Sinner who needed it most? Satan?
I Don't see anyone praying for his forgiveness. and if your sorry self can go drink margarita's and snort coke off a hooker on Saturday and be forgiven on Sunday. I am pretty sure a failed rebel that fell 1000s of years ago can be forgiven.

nor is there a stipulation that angels are not able to be forgiven or that you should only try for those who have the willingness too ask it.
because I know some of you go door to door 6am on a Monday and harass me so if you can go through that trouble you can have the decency of praying for Satan to find forgiveness.

on a side note, I am on a roll today with these morally controversial questions.
Yay me.

What is your beef with Christianity, anyway? You seem to have a very negative attitude about Christianity in general. What gives?

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

No, they are not. Adultery is not forgiven, the innocent party may divorce. Murder is not forgivable according to John.


Exactly the part where forgiveness is not possible -- namely, willful deliberate sinning. It damns utterly. Also, the ransom was for humans only, so . . .

Strange.
I thought all things were forgivable.

 

[Father]

Strange.
I thought all things were forgivable.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why have none of you had the humility the decency the Heart. and soul. to forgive the one Sinner who needed it most? Satan?

I asked this exact question. The most honest and specific answer I got from a christian chat room is that satan does not deserve christian's forgiveness because god has already sealed his fate.

So basically, since god already condemned him, by praying for him is going against god's plan for satan's eternal death. How would you say, disobeying god in an indirect way.

 

[Father]

I asked this exact question. The most honest and specific answer I got from a christian chat room is that satan does not deserve christian's forgiveness because god has already sealed his fate.

So basically, since god already condemned him, by praying for him is going against god's plan for satan's eternal death. How would you say, disobeying god in an indirect way.

Ok. what about the 3/4th of a Holy choir and every Angel that hath fallen after? whose names are never mentioned? would not forgiving them for simply being tined into Satans plan be Good?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No, they are not. Adultery is not forgiven, the innocent party may divorce. Murder is not forgivable according to John.

Everything is forgivable. They still have benefits or consequences; and, that shouldn't deprive them from the one thing human's want the most--your forgiveness.

Kind of puts a dent on christian prison ministries that forgive criminals for their crimes against humanity; thereby, talking with them while some come to christ. Many ways to forgive without saving them from the consequence of their actions.

If murder is not forgivable, jesus would not have died for all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ok. what about the 3/4th of a Holy choir and every Angel that hath fallen after? whose names are never mentioned? would not forgiving them for simply being tined into Satans plan be Good?

Some christians (not all-Catholics forgive people through their ministries and charities) feel anyone who disobeys god, especially in the heavenly realm demons, satan, and fallen angels etc don't deserve our forgiveness.

To pray for their salvation and forgive them for actions of humanity is basically telling god he made a bad decision in punishing them for their actions.

It is logical if going by christian criteria. In my opinion, not at all moral.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Ancient Pagans

• As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
• Between 315 and 6th-century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
• Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
• Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
• Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
• Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
  According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
• In the 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
• In the early fourth century, the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
• The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
  [DO19-25]

Mission

• Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
• Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children were slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
• Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
• 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
• 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heads of all those (of what sort soever they were) which were killed in the daie, should be cut off from their bodies... and should be laid on the ground by each side of the way", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "great terror to the people when the saw the hedges of their dead fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolk, and friends on the ground".
  Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

Crusades (1095-1291)

• First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
• Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousand slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousand. [WW23]
• 9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
• Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
• after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
  Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents—save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
• Marra (Maraat an-Numan) 12/11/98 thousand killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
• Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
  (In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude")
• The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
• Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
• Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
• Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
• Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224]
  Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.

Heretics

• Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus, and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
• Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
• Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
  The Albigensians...viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept Roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
  Begin of violence: on command of Pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Beziers (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbors and friends) 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
• Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands were slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
• subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
• After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
• Estimated one million victims (Cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
• Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
• Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
• John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
• University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
• Giordano Bruno, a Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo de Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.

Witches

• from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
• in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars, several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]
• an incomplete list of documented cases:
  The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times

Religious Wars

• 15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands were slain. [DO30]
• 1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
• 1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered the extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain. [DO31]
• 1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
• 17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
• 17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
• 17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]

Really I just dislike the Logical fallacies, contradictions, and misinterpretation of the Old Testament.

oh I dislike the Muslims too, but have less issue with their works since they are more logically sound within their own book, so I take issue only with the book itself than their interpretation. I would DIslike the jew's but they have gotten enough punishment. and keep to themselves quite a bit.

Wow! Interesting post!T

 

[Father]

Some christians (not all-Catholics forgive people through their ministries and charities) feel anyone who disobeys god, especially in the heavenly realm demons, satan, and fallen angels etc don't deserve our forgiveness.

To pray for their salvation and forgive them for actions of humanity is basically telling god he made a bad decision in punishing them for their actions.

It is logical if going by christian criteria. In my opinion, not at all moral.

from an Abrahamic perspective. maybe teaming up with the angels and overthrowing this God would solve most these issues. Most the Angels followed satan not because they thought he was more worthy to be God. they all had their own motives. so overthrowing God, removing Satan also. and turning the universe into a Democracy or Republic would fix alot.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

from an Abrahamic perspective. maybe teaming up with the angels and overthrowing this God would solve most these issues. Most the Angels followed satan not because they thought he was more worthy to be God. they all had their own motives. so overthrowing God, removing Satan also. and turning the universe into a Democracy or Republic would fix alot.

This is just my opinion, but I think you're debating you'd be overthrowing the idea of god, angels, and satan. I'm not one for violence and throwing people out the door; but, I do want to know they exist before I attempt to do anything.

Outside of the bible, what do you know of god that no one has told you of?

 

[Father]

This is just my opinion, but I think you're debating you'd be overthrowing the idea of god, angels, and satan. I'm not one for violence and throwing people out the door; but, I do want to know they exist before I attempt to do anything.

Outside of the bible, what do you know of god that no one has told you of?

that such a being does not interact with creation. which is why I said in the Abrahamic perspective. is such what I would do.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

that such a being does not interact with creation. which is why I said in the Abrahamic perspective. is such what I would do.

If he does not interact, how do you know he exist to really do anything to him?

I'm being a devil's advocate since I never understood being mad at someone you've never met before.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Ancient Pagans

• As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
• Between 315 and 6th-century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
• Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
• Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
• Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
• Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
  According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
• In the 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
• In the early fourth century, the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
• The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
  [DO19-25]

Mission

• Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
• Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children were slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
• Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
• 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
• 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heads of all those (of what sort soever they were) which were killed in the daie, should be cut off from their bodies... and should be laid on the ground by each side of the way", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "great terror to the people when the saw the hedges of their dead fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolk, and friends on the ground".
  Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

Crusades (1095-1291)

• First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
• Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousand slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousand. [WW23]
• 9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
• Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
• after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
  Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents—save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
• Marra (Maraat an-Numan) 12/11/98 thousand killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
• Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
  (In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude")
• The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
• Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
• Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
• Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
• Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224]
  Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.

Heretics

• Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus, and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
• Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
• Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
  The Albigensians...viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept Roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
  Begin of violence: on command of Pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Beziers (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbors and friends) 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
• Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands were slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
• subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
• After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
• Estimated one million victims (Cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
• Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
• Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
• John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
• University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
• Giordano Bruno, a Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo de Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.

Witches

• from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
• in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars, several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]
• an incomplete list of documented cases:
  The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times

Religious Wars

• 15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands were slain. [DO30]
• 1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
• 1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered the extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain. [DO31]
• 1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
• 17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
• 17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
• 17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]

Really I just dislike the Logical fallacies, contradictions, and misinterpretation of the Old Testament.

oh I dislike the Muslims too, but have less issue with their works since they are more logically sound within their own book, so I take issue only with the book itself than their interpretation. I would DIslike the jew's but they have gotten enough punishment. and keep to themselves quite a bit.

Wow! Interesting post! So very early in the history of Christianity!

But then, Paul said @ Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 that, basically, the teachings of Christ (and Paul) would be twisted, not 1000 years later, but right after Paul's going away! The Apostle Peter stated (2 Peter 3:15-17) that, even then, people were twisting what the Apostles taught.....yes, the truth was starting to be corrupted way back then, the foretold apostasy was taking hold!

I like your last paragraph, because you basically state that professed Christians simply aren't following the Bible's commands (of love) for Christ's disciples. But that doesn't make the Bible wrong, does it?

Really, it's their teachers, i.e., ministers, priests and so forth, that bear the major guilt! The clergy bears heavy blood guilt.

I'm just glad that as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I've been taught the importance of loving others, how that really ID's Christ's disciples, as He stated at John 13:34-35. And "doing the will of the Father" (Matthew 7:21-23), which includes preaching.

Again, enlightening post!

 

[Father]

Wow! Interesting post! So very early in the history of Christianity!

But then, Paul said @ Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 that, basically, the teachings of Christ (and Paul) would be twisted, not 1000 years later, but right after Paul's going away! The Apostle Peter stated (2 Peter 3:15-17) that, even then, people were twisting what the Apostles taught.....yes, the truth was starting to be corrupted way back then, the foretold apostasy was taking hold!

I like your last paragraph, because you basically state that professed Christians simply aren't following the Bible's commands (of love) for Christ's disciples. But that doesn't make the Bible wrong, does it?

Really, it's their teachers, i.e., ministers, priests and so forth, that bear the major guilt! The clergy bears heavy blood guilt.

I'm just glad that as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I've been taught the importance of loving others, how that really ID's Christ's disciples, as He stated at John 13:34-35. And "doing the will of the Father" (Matthew 7:21-23), which includes preaching.

Again, enlightening post!

its the fault of the book for giving enough le way and being so easily corruptible.
mind you almost all versions of the new testament were edited and put together by the Catholic Church. they even own the scripture that was not put in it. furthermore, there are NT verses promoting slavery so the NT is hardly an innocent goody book that evil monsters corrupt. it itself is on a set of morals extremely outdated.

however, the Jehovah Witnesses are probably the truest to form of following the book. even if some of your ideas are insanity like not celebrating birth day's or only having so much room in heaven. along with the name Jehovah which how you pull that from YHWH when the true interpretation is unknown is beyond me.

 

[Tumah]

on a side note, I am on a roll today with these morally controversial questions.
Yay me.

Others might say that you don't have to post every thought that passes through your head, or at least save your ideas for one long OP so as not to flood the New Threads box.

But potato potato I guess.

 

[Father]

Others might say that you don't have to post every thought that passes through your head, or at least save your ideas for one long OP so as not to flood the New Threads box.

But potato potato I guess.

not my fault no one else is posting things for me to burn. so I have to make my own bonfire