Why do I only see this in Islam?

Lucian Hodoboc · Sep 10, 2017

Polymath257 said:
No True Scotsman.

I'm kind of getting tired of people who see everything as a fallacy. What I said is no "no true scotsman" at all, and you could easily understand that if you knew the basics of Christianity: as long as you are intentionally sinning while calling yourself a Christian, you are a fake Christian by definition. We all stumble in sin involuntarily because of temptations or circumstances beyond our control, but those people willingly go to persecute other people while claiming that they know Jesus' teachings.

25 Important Bible Verses About Fake Christians

Polymath257 said:
Thee people believe in the divinity of Jesus. They believe in the trinity. They believe in the foundational beliefs of Christianity as defined by Christians. To deny them as Christians is simply perverse.

Demons believe in the divinity of Jesus and The Trinity, yet are not Christians. If it is perverse to deny them, then The Gospel must be perverse in your opinion.

1 John 2:4 - Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

1 John 3:6 - Those who live in Christ don’t go on sinning. Those who go on sinning haven’t seen or known Christ.

Lucian Hodoboc · Sep 10, 2017

Shadow Wolf said:
I'm pretty sure there is something in the Bible that only those without sin are supposed to judge, that human judgement is clouded by their own crap going on, and that only god can rightfully judge if someone is a Christian or not. I can just as easily say that you taking it upon yourself to do what is reserved exclusively for makes you no "real" Christian.

We are not allowed to assert judgement and act upon it (as in get revenge on people who have wronged us according to our personal moral compass), but we are definitely allowed to point out when people go against the teachings of The Gospel. We can't decide who will be saved and who won't (because God's ways are mysterious and people can repent and be forgiven at any time in their lives), but we can certainly acknowledge who is not living a Christian-like life despite calling themselves a Christian.

sun rise · Sep 10, 2017

9-10ths_Penguin said:
I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. The problem isn't Islam; it's theocracy.

There are still plenty of Christians with the desire to hurt and kill "non-believers" - as evidenced by the many Christian terrorist groups worldwide - but because they're just terrorist groups and don't have the full power of governments, they typically "only" kill hundreds at a time instead of tens of thousands.

In the West, thanks to a few hundred years' influence of secularism, there aren't many Christian theocracies left. I'm sure that plenty of those Christian terrorists would love to have the force and power of a government, but secularists have done a pretty good job of stopping them.

I mean, what Christian theocracies are left? Malta and Vatican City? Do they even have 20,000 Baha'i between them to begin with?

... which reminds me of another factor: traditionally, many nominally Christian countries have been very xenophobic (or even genocidal) towards dissenting religions, so in many cases, you don't get these big slaughters of big groups of religious minorities because there simply aren't big groups of religious minorities in the first place. A big part of why it's even possible for a slaughter of a large number of a religious minority in a country is that life there is tolerable for that minority most of the time.

Christianity today is less dangerous because it is being held in check by secularism, not because it's inherently more peaceful. And in many cases, it couldn't slaughter tens of thousands of a religious minority because the minority was killed off centuries ago and was never allowed to re-establish itself.

In the USA where I live, I'm VERY much more concerned about right wing "Christian" militias given their ideology and that they outgun the police all too often.

sun rise · Sep 10, 2017

james dixon said:
>

Why do I only see this in Judaism?
The discussion here is about the pros & cons of Islam and/or their religious activities and I admit Judaism is not the topic and yet I felt the spitting below needs your attention as well.

Rabbi David Rosen is a talented and respected rabbi, originally from the UK.

Since in some circles it seems to be more encouraged to spit on Christian clergymen than build bridges (this week's events in the Old City), Rabbi Rosen is unpopular with Eskin and his ilk.
Rabbi David Rosen

It has been Jerusalem's dirty little secret for decades: Orthodox yeshiva students and other Jewish residents vandalizing churches and spitting on Christian clergyman as they walk along the narrow, ancient stone streets of the Old City.
http://tinyurl.com/v7dbq

Christians say ultra-Orthodox Jewish students spit at them or at the ground when they pass. There have also been acts of vandalism against statues of the Virgin Mary.
Ultra-orthodox Jews 'must stop religious abuse'

You cannot find one incident where Muslims spit on Christians but you can find countless incidents where Orthodox Jews spit on Christians. Has the American press ever covered the above-?

There is also the absolute oppression of women in hyper-orthodox Judaism. Haredi burqa sect - Wikipedia for women's clothing for one. And then there's this horror show:
Between 15 and 20 Israeli women are murdered each year by their partners, but Meir said religious women have not been included in those statistics until now. In one grisly case this year, a husband said he had been directed by God to kill his wife and walked through the neighborhood with her severed head in his hands.

Abused women in ultra-Orthodox community finding way out

Shadow Wolf · Sep 10, 2017

Lucian Hodoboc said:
We can't decide who will be saved and who won't

And yet you take it upon yourself to label others as not saved/not Christian.

sun rise · Sep 10, 2017

Lucian Hodoboc said:
We are not allowed to assert judgement and act upon it (as in get revenge on people who have wronged us according to our personal moral compass), but we are definitely allowed to point out when people go against the teachings of The Gospel. We can't decide who will be saved and who won't (because God's ways are mysterious and people can repent and be forgiven at any time in their lives), but we can certainly acknowledge who is not living a Christian-like life despite calling themselves a Christian.

I'm not a Christian but find myself having a great deal of sympathy for that viewpoint. I too try to not judge someone's heart but I do judge whether or not someone appears to be a hypocrite or not based on their actions.

Spiderman · Sep 10, 2017

Will there ever be a fall of Theocracy in the Muslim world? I feel so sorry for the poor rational minded people who have to live there.

Theocracies hold their people back and live like the dark ages. What a waste! What are Muslims doing to reform this?

oldbadger · Sep 10, 2017

PopeADope said:
» Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) | U.S. Baha'i Office of Public Affairs

Ah...... thankyou....... so the above Bahai office has reported 20,000 bahai executions in Islamic countries and yet we only know about circa 200 in Iran in the last circa 4 decades.

Fair enough

Saheim · Sep 10, 2017

Maybe we grew up in different eras, but I watched PLENTY of news reports of Catholics and Protestants attacking each other. Granted, didn't hear about too many beheadings, they seemed partial to car bombs.

Quoted text missing,.oops

arthra · Sep 11, 2017

PopeADope said:
I was reading that 20,000 Baha'i were killed for being heretics. "Thus Bahá'ís are seen as apostates from Islam, and, according to some Islamists, must choose between repentance and death."[3 Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia
When was the last time you heard of Christians or Pagans killing a fraction of that many people for heresy? Baha'is are peaceful and they accept the Koran as the word of God. Why kill them?

I'm trying to overcome my negative views towards Islam, but all this cutting off of heads dates back to the behavior of the prophet himself who cut off enormous amounts of Jewish, Christian, and Pagan heads. People who do such things can look to the behavior of Muhammad to justify it.

The above persecution isn't throughout the Muslim world. Some Muslim countries recognize the Faith

Indonesian government recognizes Baha'i faith as a religion

also see:

Bahá'í Faith in Asia - Wikipedia

Shia Islam · Sep 11, 2017

PopeADope said:
Baha'is are peaceful and they accept the Koran as the word of God.

If they are accepting the Quran, they would be Muslims. They themselves don't claim to be Muslims. Even here in RF, Bahai Dir is not put under the Islamic Dir.

PopeADope said:
I'm trying to overcome my negative views towards Islam, but all this cutting off of heads dates back to the behavior of the prophet himself who cut off enormous amounts of Jewish, Christian, and Pagan heads. People who do such things can look to the behavior of Muhammad to justify it.

Christians and Jews are called people of the book and are protected in Islam

PopeADope said:
I don't see any Christian nations or predominately polytheistic nations killing people by the thousands for heresy. I only see this today in Islam. Why is that?

Where are all of the millions of Muslims who were living in Spain and Europe 5 centuries ago?!!

islam abduallah · Sep 11, 2017

adrian009 said:
According to Amnesty international 202 Baha'is have been killed in Iran since the Iranian revolution in 1979. Baha'is are often arrested and imprisoned for long periods of time without due process, prevented from attending university, have their property confiscated, and subject to negative publicity campaigns.

I agree that the persecution of all peoples based on religion is deplorable and unacceptable, Muslims included.

202 is a vaild compare, original poster says 20K

observe the difference

The Emperor of Mankind · Sep 11, 2017

Epic Beard Man said:
Muslims are synonymous with Islam and as the discussion evolved the subject of Muslims came up.

No they're not in the same way smokers are not synonymous with tobacco companies. If I said companies which sell cigarettes profit from the suffering and ill-health of others, does that mean the same has to be true of their customers? No, of course it doesn't. If I point out that Glasgow Rangers FC's executives & players are/were a bunch of tax dodging crooks, does that mean I'm saying the same must be true of the club's fans? No!

Pointing out that there are aspects of Islam that we ought to be concerned about; that we should be discussing more widely is not a slander against Muslims generally. You're committing a kind of cognitive dissonance here. I've seen you argue in the past that not all Muslims are violent (something like 0.0000016%, I think?) yet by conflating concern or criticism of (specific parts of) Islam with bigotry against Muslims you're unconsciously homogenising them by assuming they must all believe or act the same way. You're basically saying that because I'm not enamoured with being called 'the worst of creatures' due to being a polytheist by Islamic scripture, that most/all Muslims must believe this and hate me, therefore I'm attacking them.

Lucian Hodoboc said:
I'm kind of getting tired of people who see everything as a fallacy. What I said is no "no true scotsman" at all, and you could easily understand that if you knew the basics of Christianity: as long as you are intentionally sinning while calling yourself a Christian, you are a fake Christian by definition. We all stumble in sin involuntarily because of temptations or circumstances beyond our control, but those people willingly go to persecute other people while claiming that they know Jesus' teachings.

Actually this is an example of a NTS fallacy. Speaking as a True Scotsman, I ought to know

What visible differences are there between a Christian who sins accidentally and one who sins deliberately? One who sins deliberately might afterwards realise their mistake and genuinely seek forgiveness and repentance. Christian orthodoxy also says we're all innately sinful, fallen, imperfect so by your standards there are no true Christians anywhere - not even you. If you start omitting sinful Christians from Christendom on the grounds they're sinful then the number of Christians globally plummets to, well, zero.

The truth is you're doing what Muslims do; you're disowning the problematic elements of your religion in order to protect the integrity of its doctrines.

Lucian Hodoboc · Sep 11, 2017

A Greased Scotsman said:
What visible differences are there between a Christian who sins accidentally and one who sins deliberately?

The visible difference is that the people who sin accidentally feel a sense of remorse afterwards, seek to repent as soon as possible and try to (at least for a period of time) avoid committing that sin again. Do you see the Christian militia accidentally killing non-Christians, then repenting for having done it and resigning from the militia for a few years, and then accidentally rejoining the militia and killing non-Christians again, and then repenting again and resigning from the militia... and so on?

A Greased Scotsman said:
One who sins deliberately might afterwards realise their mistake and genuinely seek forgiveness and repentance.

Indeed, they can. Point at which they can be called Christians. But unless I'm missing something, I have not heard of Christian militia doing that, so until they do, they are not real Christians.

A Greased Scotsman said:
Christian orthodoxy also says we're all innately sinful, fallen, imperfect so by your standards there are no true Christians anywhere - not even you.

I'm sure there are several logical fallacies bundled up in that statement, but I can't be bothered to look them up. The original sin and voluntary personal sin are different things. We are called to imitate Christ's lifestyle as closely as we can. Christ would not approve of persecution of people because of their beliefs.

A Greased Scotsman said:
If you start omitting sinful Christians from Christendom on the grounds they're sinful then the number of Christians globally plummets to, well, zero.

Sinful Christians repent and try to sin no more. I'm excluding people who voluntarily sin in the name of God.

A Greased Scotsman said:
The truth is you're doing what Muslims do; you're disowning the problematic elements of your religion in order to protect the integrity of its doctrines.

Atheists: religious people should just drop the aspects of their religion that cannot be adapted to social evolution.
Also atheists: why are you religious people rejecting the parts of your religion that don't adapt to social evolution?

The mind boggles.

Epic Beard Man · Sep 11, 2017

A Greased Scotsman said:
No they're not in the same way smokers are not synonymous with tobacco companies. If I said companies which sell cigarettes profit from the suffering and ill-health of others, does that mean the same has to be true of their customers? No, of course it doesn't. If I point out that Glasgow Rangers FC's executives & players are/were a bunch of tax dodging crooks, does that mean I'm saying the same must be true of the club's fans? No!

Pointing out that there are aspects of Islam that we ought to be concerned about; that we should be discussing more widely is not a slander against Muslims generally. You're committing a kind of cognitive dissonance here. I've seen you argue in the past that not all Muslims are violent (something like 0.0000016%, I think?) yet by conflating concern or criticism of (specific parts of) Islam with bigotry against Muslims you're unconsciously homogenising them by assuming they must all believe or act the same way. You're basically saying that because I'm not enamoured with being called 'the worst of creatures' due to being a polytheist by Islamic scripture, that most/all Muslims must believe this and hate me, therefore I'm attacking them.

Actually this is an example of a NTS fallacy. Speaking as a True Scotsman, I ought to know

What visible differences are there between a Christian who sins accidentally and one who sins deliberately? One who sins deliberately might afterwards realise their mistake and genuinely seek forgiveness and repentance. Christian orthodoxy also says we're all innately sinful, fallen, imperfect so by your standards there are no true Christians anywhere - not even you. If you start omitting sinful Christians from Christendom on the grounds they're sinful then the number of Christians globally plummets to, well, zero.

The truth is you're doing what Muslims do; you're disowning the problematic elements of your religion in order to protect the integrity of its doctrines.

Listen, the climate here on RF especially among those who criticize Islam is very hostile and at times the arguments go beyond simple constructive criticism. Speaking about arguments, there have been arguments made here by RF'ers concerning Islam by associating fanaticism with the Holy Qur'an along with the actions of Muslims (good or bad) so in essence my comment about Muslims being synonymous with Islam, in essence it does make sense because this environment (On RF) has done that. When I talk about not all Muslims are bad is because I take confounding variables when it comes to behavior. When Palestinians attack Jews I do not take them as doing such acts in the name of Islam, but a historical socio-political conflict that has spanned for decades. When I see Indonesian Muslims Chinese Buddhist, I do not take it as something that is commanded to them to do such things, I consider not only the cultural climate, but socio-political factors as well. There are a lot of ignorant and impressionable people in all faiths who are easily swayed by so called "clerics" who they themselves can convince a large swath of a population that such and such action is mandated in a Holy book. Similarly, you have non-Muslims ignorant of the Arabic language and the different times Muhammad received revelation, yet will pick up an English language copy of the Qur'an and will read a verse like "kill them wherever you find them" and would assume that verse is the summation of Islam. So my point is people need to consider various factors and not simply look at things in relation to the actions of Muslims or Islam itself for face value. If that were the case then I could judge humanity as one evil virus that needs to be wiped out if I were to judge everything I see for face value.

Polymath257 · Sep 11, 2017

Lucian Hodoboc said:
I'm kind of getting tired of people who see everything as a fallacy. What I said is no "no true scotsman" at all, and you could easily understand that if you knew the basics of Christianity: as long as you are intentionally sinning while calling yourself a Christian, you are a fake Christian by definition. We all stumble in sin involuntarily because of temptations or circumstances beyond our control, but those people willingly go to persecute other people while claiming that they know Jesus' teachings.

25 Important Bible Verses About Fake Christians

Well, it *is* a fallacy when you deny that someone can be a Christian for doing what a very, very large number of Christians throuout history have done. There is a long tradition of a 'church militant' which shows that a 'Christian militia' is NOT an oxymoron.

Now, *their* interpretation of scriptures may not be *your* interpretation of scriptures, but unless you want to be quite perverse, simply having a different interpretation doesn't negate a person's Christianity.

Demons believe in the divinity of Jesus and The Trinity, yet are not Christians. If it is perverse to deny them, then The Gospel must be perverse in your opinion.

1 John 2:4 - Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

1 John 3:6 - Those who live in Christ don’t go on sinning. Those who go on sinning haven’t seen or known Christ.

We aren't talking about 'demons'. We are talking about people. Again, this is your interpretation. Others differ.

LuisDantas · Sep 11, 2017

Shia Islam said:
If they are accepting the Quran, they would be Muslims. They themselves don't claim to be Muslims. Even here in RF, Bahai Dir is not put under the Islamic Dir.

Then again, RF management is hardly authoritative for either the Bahai or Muslim faiths.

Where are all of the millions of Muslims who were living in Spain and Europe 5 centuries ago?!!

Fair question. What did happen to them?

I assume many ended up converting to Christianity, or their descendants did.

Lucian Hodoboc · Sep 11, 2017

Polymath257 said:
Well, it *is* a fallacy when you deny that someone can be a Christian for doing what a very, very large number of Christians throuout history have done.

A very large number of self-proclaimed Christians, not of actual Christians.*

Polymath257 said:
There is a long tradition of a 'church militant' which shows that a 'Christian militia' is NOT an oxymoron.

Since when does tradition define reason? Did Jesus not state that people created their own 'religious' traditions that were not pleasant to God?

Polymath257 said:
Now, *their* interpretation of scriptures may not be *your* interpretation of scriptures, but unless you want to be quite perverse,

Polymath257 said:
simply having a different interpretation doesn't negate a person's Christianity.

Of course not. It negates their real Christianity, not their self-proclaimed Christianity.

Polymath257 said:
We aren't talking about 'demons'. We are talking about people.

People, demons, angels (Lucifer's followers), it does not matter. If you acknowledge God's commandments, but voluntarily break them and refuse to repent, you are not of God.

Polymath257 · Sep 11, 2017

Lucian Hodoboc said:
A very large number of self-proclaimed Christians, not of actual Christians.*

Exactly. No True Scotsman. I call BS.

Saint Frankenstein · Sep 11, 2017

Polymath257 said:
There is a long tradition of a 'church militant' which shows that a 'Christian militia' is NOT an oxymoron.

That has nothing to do with armed combat.
Churches Militant, Penitent, and Triumphant - Wikipedia

Why do I only see this in Islam?

Member

Member

The world is on fire

The world is on fire

Certified People sTabber

The world is on fire

Veteran Member

Skanky Old Mongrel!

New Member

Baha'i

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.

Active Member

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic

Member

Bearded Philosopher

Think & Care

Aura of atheification

Member

Think & Care

Gone