How I approach Torah/Judaism a a gay man.

Posted this on another forum, but I would like to get the POV of the Jewish people here on RF.

How do I approach Torah as a gay man?

Thoughts?

Btw, just a reminder, this is the Judaism DIR. Frankly, I don't care about the opinions of non-Jews on this particular subject.

What do you mean "approach Torah"? I assume you don't mean physically, but beyond that, I need clarification.

rosends said:

What do you mean "approach Torah"? I assume you don't mean physically, but beyond that, I need clarification.

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Yeah, not physically. Mentally, spiritually, in reverence, etc. How I, being who I am and in the process of becoming Jewish, understand Torah and wrestle with certain passages while not completely rejecting them.

You are walking into a difficult situation as you are trying to plant yourself into a middle position -- accepting some, in a certain way. I think that one of our failings as people is when we take that certain logical shortcut. We see that others have ended up in a middle path so we aim for that middle path as our starting point. But middle paths are end results. When we study, we should be studying in order to get a 100 so we can settle for an 88. If we study aiming at an 88, we will end up failing. If we can't buy in and study aiming for a 100, then this reflects a problem (IMHO).

This is one reason (of the many) that conversion is so difficult.

StarryNightshade said:

How do I approach Torah as a gay man?

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IMO, they should be themselves and also study Torah and do their best to live by its teachings.

rosends said:

You are walking into a difficult situation as you are trying to plant yourself into a middle position -- accepting some, in a certain way. I think that one of our failings as people is when we take that certain logical shortcut. We see that others have ended up in a middle path so we aim for that middle path as our starting point. But middle paths are end results. When we study, we should be studying in order to get a 100 so we can settle for an 88. If we study aiming at an 88, we will end up failing. If we can't buy in and study aiming for a 100, then this reflects a problem (IMHO).

This is one reason (of the many) that conversion is so difficult.

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Believe it or not, I don't disagree with you. As I said in my blog post, I recognize that - as far as traditional Judaism is concerned - the whole gay thing is less than ideal at best. Additionally that living a fully observant life is a process, and for many (born Jew and convert alike) it's often a lifetime one. Perhaps one day I will live 100% in accordance with the teachings on sexuality. Until then, I will otherwise do my best and observe the rest of the laws and keep the Sabbath, keep kosher, pray, give to charity, etc.

metis said:

IMO, they should be themselves and also study Torah and do their best to live by its teachings.

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That's the plan.

StarryNightshade said:

Posted this on another forum, but I would like to get the POV of the Jewish people here on RF.

How do I approach Torah as a gay man?

Thoughts?

Btw, just a reminder, this is the Judaism DIR. Frankly, I don't care about the opinions of non-Jews on this particular subject.

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Welcome to this forum!

You may have noticed that there is some overlap between this forum and the other forum you referenced in terms of members. There is at least one member there who is also a member here, but under a different user name, as you do.

Since I try to not repeat myself, I may limit my responses to one forum or the other depending upon the issues that present themselves.

We'll see where your Jewish heart within leads.

StarryNightshade said:

Yeah, not physically. Mentally, spiritually, in reverence, etc. How I, being who I am and in the process of becoming Jewish, understand Torah and wrestle with certain passages while not completely rejecting them.

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Being gay doesn't bar you from Judaism. All of us have sinful foibles that we repeat during our lifetime. We can just try to do better. The effort is more important than the success. For me personally, there is something that I do that I shouldn't. A rabbi told me that G-d knows that I will repeat that error, but each time that I forbear doing it, is a mitzvah. That has given me comfort for the times that I resist.

I don't want to get "political" about this-- but I will.

According to geneticists, being "gay" appears to be mostly genetic-- not choice. Therefore, if God made gays, how can that and doing "gay things", if you know what I mean, be a sin?

[/political]

metis said:

I don't want to get "political" about this-- but I will.

According to geneticists, being "gay" appears to be mostly genetic-- not choice. Therefore, if God made gays, how can that and doing "gay things", if you know what I mean, be a sin?

[/political]

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[intentionally obtuse]
I don't think the html close tag will work if you don't start the code with the corresponding open tag...
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rosends said:

[intentionally obtuse]
I don't think the html close tag will work if you don't start the code with the corresponding open tag...
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I do my best to try and confuse people. Not doing a bad job, ain't I.

I believe that the Torah is a human endeavor which cannot help but to reflect the backwardness of the times.

As you already know, we are bound by halachah even when we might disagree with it. But living a life by Torah is a life-long endevour, and no one starts out hitting it out of the park.
If you can master all of the mitzvot but two (homosexuality and procreation), I'd say you're doing far better than most of us.

Ultimately, your sexuality is between you and God. And I don't think that the God we worship will treat anyone who has a loving relationship with another person too harshly.

metis said:

I don't want to get "political" about this-- but I will.

According to geneticists, being "gay" appears to be mostly genetic-- not choice. Therefore, if God made gays, how can that and doing "gay things", if you know what I mean, be a sin?

[/political]

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So what you're saying is that since hetero men are genetically attracted to women, how can sleeping with your neighbor's wife be a sin?

Tumah said:

So what you're saying is that since hetero men are genetically attracted to women, how can sleeping with your neighbor's wife be a sin?

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No, that's not what I was saying. Impulses are impulses, actions are actions, but not all impulses lead to actions.

Secondly, even though I have no doubt that homosexual activity is prohibited by Torah, I take issue with that because why would God have it that a person has a genetic predisposition to being attracted to others of the same sex, and that this and any subsequent actions to reflect that love would supposedly be a "sin"? Did God screw up when making their genes?

We not only see homosexual activity with humans but also monkeys (ask many a parent's embarrassment at having their kids see moneys in "action" at the zoo), apes, and many other animals. Therefore, even though such a trait may be recessive, why would God make such a genetic trait that would strongly encourage a person to engage in homosexual activity but then have that being a "sin"?

metis said:

No, that's not what I was saying. Impulses are impulses, actions are actions, but not all impulses lead to actions.

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Ok, so what's the difference if I'm genetically inclined towards an impulse to procreate with an already married woman, or if I'm genetically inclined towards an impulse to relate to another man? Why does one seem like it shouldn't be a sin more than another?

Secondly, even though I have no doubt that homosexual activity is prohibited by Torah, I take issue with that because why would God have it that a person has a genetic predisposition to being attracted to others of the same sex, and that this and any subsequent actions to reflect that love would supposedly be a "sin"? Did God screw up when making their genes?

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Yeah, I have the same question. What's the big deal if I love an already married woman? I'm genetically predisposed to loving women. Does that mean G-d messed up when making my genes? Am I never supposed to be allowed to express my love for her just because she's married?

Alternatively, genetics and predisposition is not an indication of what is sin. Half the 10 commandments are things we are not naturally inclined towards. G-d commanded that we honor and fear our parents. Does that mean He made a mistake by giving me horrible parents? It doesn't matter if I'm genetically inclined towards men or psychologically predisposed towards robbery. G-d wants me to strive against what I am today, to become His idea of something better. Those of us that prescribe to Orthodoxy, buy into the idea that G-d having created the system to begin with, knows what the better thing is and so we (hopefully) strive for it. Homosexuality in that regard, is just one of the types of impediments that G-d gives to people to overcome. But there are plenty. Pleeeennnnty.

In my opinion, a lot of it is about how today people are more into getting society to accept their faults rather that putting in the blood and sweat that is character refinement and self-improvement. Perhaps there is no imperative for self-improvement in a secular community without a higher Authority requiring it and so forcing society's hand is the easier choice.

We not only see homosexual activity with humans but also monkeys (ask many a parent's embarrassment at having their kids see moneys in "action" at the zoo), apes, and many other animals. Therefore, even though such a trait may be recessive, why would God make such a genetic trait that would strongly encourage a person to engage in homosexual activity but then have that being a "sin"?

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We see cannibalism, robbery, incest, murder, self-mutilation and a host of other bad qualities (for humans) by animals too. I don't think this is a good argument.

Tumah said:

Ok, so what's the difference if I'm genetically inclined towards an impulse to procreate with an already married woman, or if I'm genetically inclined towards an impulse to relate to another man? Why does one seem like it shouldn't be a sin more than another?

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I already answered that. All societies have "ground rules" as far as what is and what isn't proper conduct, and religion is often a factor but it's almost never the only factor.

Tumah said:

Yeah, I have the same question. What's the big deal if I love an already married woman? I'm genetically predisposed to loving women. Does that mean G-d messed up when making my genes? Am I never supposed to be allowed to express my love for her just because she's married?

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See above.

BTW, one can express their love for another in different ways, and I would suggest respecting them is probably #1. One does not have to be religious in order to know that this is a good course to take, even if it's just for selfish reasons: "what goes around tends to come around".

Tumah said:

Alternatively, genetics and predisposition is not an indication of what is sin. Half the 10 commandments are things we are not naturally inclined towards. G-d commanded that we honor and fear our parents.

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You and I look at Torah quite differently, plus I would suggest that honoring our parents is basically found in probably all religions and secular societies as well. What many call "the Golden Rule" is commonly taught, not only through religion but also in secular humanism. Compassion and altruism is strong in smaller human groups, but unfortunately it often gets watered down in larger, more impersonal societies. Gandhi's emphasis on the further development of cottage industries and greater emphasis on smaller local sovereignty is a good direction to go in for that very reason, imo.

Tumah said:

In my opinion, a lot of it is about how today people are more into getting society to accept their faults rather that putting in the blood and sweat that is character refinement and self-improvement. Perhaps there is no imperative for self-improvement in a secular community without a higher Authority requiring it and so forcing society's hand is the easier choice.

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Your position that a secular society is somehow amoral simply is wrong, as all societies, including those whereas religious observance is very low, have morals and laws to reflect the morals they chose to have. Japan and the Scandinavian countries have very low rates of religious observance, and yet they have relatively low crime rates, and the latter spend more per person to help their poor than most other societies.

Tumah said:

We see cannibalism, robbery, incest, murder, self-mutilation and a host of other bad qualities (for humans) by animals too. I don't think this is a good argument.

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That's a non-sequitur based on what I have posted since you're implying that I am advocating having a devil-may-care society w/o morality, which I not only am not saying. You also ignore the fact that all societies have morals that they teach and put into law, regardless as to their ultimate source.

However, morals and laws are not uniform from one society to another, but that's also true of different societies that even may be dominated by the same religion. Take a look at the variations between Christian societies worldwide, for example.