Is Peace on Earth Really God's Goal????

Bird123 said:

How about this? Forget everything you know about religion and God. Look at the universe around you. Figure out why the way it's being done is the Best way. The human factor will have many more variables. Put the pieces together with an open mind and see what you Discover. Is there Method to the madness???

Hanging onto terms like supernatural draw your view from what actually is. If I were to fly an airplane 2000 years ago, I would be supernatural to many.

My Best advice is to Be Who you Must. As I see it. It is a part of the Plan.

I find very few who really want to Discover God. It really doesn't matter. I think it is only important to make our own choices. As I see it. Life's lessons are best learned that way.

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Thanks for the suggestion. I'll stick with science instead of forgetting everything I know about religion. I know nothing about a god, anyway, only the stuff other people have made up.

You are right, it is important to make our own choices. But those choices are of no value unless they rest on a solid foundation of knowledge rather than wishful thinking. Do you have a scientific basis for your beliefs?

By the way, can you address the specific things in my previous post? It would be most helpful.

Bird123 said:

Intelligence wins in the end, not Might. I have seen many people hurt by Christianity. I bet you know a few too. As I see it, A Higher Level is needed.

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I agree many people have been hurt by "Christianity" (meaning so-called Christianity) just as Jesus' recorded words at Matthew chapter 7 shows. So to me, that does Not mean genuine 1st-centuryChristianity teachings, but what is often called as "Christendom". Christendom often teaches church traditions, or church customs, outside of Scripture but just taught as being Scripture. So, that does Not make the 1st-century teachings as recorded in Scripture as wrong but makes Christendom wrong. (Christendom to me fits the category of Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30).
My understanding is we need to go back to 1st-century teachings as the Higher Level that is needed because church teachings outside of Scripture is what has hurt many. Those customs or traditions are now so deeply embedded in people's minds and is so hard to erase because people think those 'wrong customs' are found in the Bible.

I think Jesus can agree with you about 'intelligence wins in the end', because Jesus taught, Not Might, but that humble meek people will inherit the Earth. Intelligence (includes educated in Jesus' words) shows 'Might' would Not be needed by mankind. When mankind becomes corrupted to the point that those who would bring ruin (literal and moral) to Earth, then Jesus (Not mankind) will being to ruin those ruining the Earth. Good times are coming!

Bird123 said:

As I see it, religion will not become obsolete through the UN. This will come from the people themselves.

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In a sense I agree that religion becomes obsolete through people themselves.
Revelation speaks of ' religious waters ' (people) just as a river can dry up, people will dry up (spiritually) as found at Revelation 16:12; Revelation 17:1; Revelation 17:15.

With backing the U.N. can be strengthened to the point that the U.N. will turn on religion (starting with Christendom).
What I think will remain are those who are willing to follow the 1st-century teaching of Jesus. So to me, Not all religion will become obsolete but people who would bring ruin to Earth (literal or moral) will become obsolete.

Milton Platt said:

That seems a simplistic view of life. How one's life turns out is as much an accident of birth as it is due to any subsequent decisions one may make. Also, the decisions of other people, most of whom we may never even meet, can influence our lives.

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Accident of birth, decisions we or others make, does influence our lives, and to me that is in harmony with Ecclesiastes 9:11 that time and what is unforeseen, unexpected events, affects all of us.
When we come to a knowledge about what we think is right or wrong, moral or immoral, then we can choose which direction our thinking is going to take us. We are free to listen to one's conscience or Not.

Milton Platt said:

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll stick with science instead of forgetting everything I know about religion. I know nothing about a god, anyway, only the stuff other people have made up.

You are right, it is important to make our own choices. But those choices are of no value unless they rest on a solid foundation of knowledge rather than wishful thinking. Do you have a scientific basis for your beliefs?

By the way, can you address the specific things in my previous post? It would be most helpful.

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It doesn't matter what one bases their choices. The lesson will follow.

Do I have scientific bases? You might not understand my answer but you might be smart enough to understand.

Answer: I know you when before a point you did not exist.

As I see it, you have sufficient knowledge to Discover that which, if you choose, are capable of doing. Only religion serves up all the answers on a plate. Real Truth must be Discovered.

Burden of proof rests on the one who seeks the knowledge. Anything else is dealing solely with Beliefs. I do not value Beliefs as many do. As I see it, I have Discovered much yet there is so much more for me to Discover. My Journey continues. Each must Choose then walk their own path.

Bird123 said:

It doesn't matter what one bases their choices. The lesson will follow.

Do I have scientific bases? You might not understand my answer but you might be smart enough to understand.

Answer: I know you when before a point you did not exist.

As I see it, you have sufficient knowledge to Discover that which, if you choose, are capable of doing. Only religion serves up all the answers on a plate. Real Truth must be Discovered.

Burden of proof rests on the one who seeks the knowledge. Anything else is dealing solely with Beliefs. I do not value Beliefs as many do. As I see it, I have Discovered much yet there is so much more for me to Discover. My Journey continues. Each must Choose then walk their own path.

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I wish you the best on your journey. but remember that the burden of proof does not rest on the one seeking knowledge. It rests upon the one making the claim.

URAVIP2ME said:

I agree many people have been hurt by "Christianity" (meaning so-called Christianity) just as Jesus' recorded words at Matthew chapter 7 shows. So to me, that does Not mean genuine 1st-centuryChristianity teachings, but what is often called as "Christendom". Christendom often teaches church traditions, or church customs, outside of Scripture but just taught as being Scripture. So, that does Not make the 1st-century teachings as recorded in Scripture as wrong but makes Christendom wrong. (Christendom to me fits the category of Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30).
My understanding is we need to go back to 1st-century teachings as the Higher Level that is needed because church teachings outside of Scripture is what has hurt many. Those customs or traditions are now so deeply embedded in people's minds and is so hard to erase because people think those 'wrong customs' are found in the Bible.

I think Jesus can agree with you about 'intelligence wins in the end', because Jesus taught, Not Might, but that humble meek people will inherit the Earth. Intelligence (includes educated in Jesus' words) shows 'Might' would Not be needed by mankind. When mankind becomes corrupted to the point that those who would bring ruin (literal and moral) to Earth, then Jesus (Not mankind) will being to ruin those ruining the Earth. Good times are coming!

Click to expand...

After all this, you still do not have a clue what I have been saying. All those bad choices are supposed to be made. They are part of the Learning process. The only way to Solve the problem is to Learn the Lessons. Once one understands all sides, your Intelligence will choose the intelligent way.

In a multilevel classroom, one has many different levels of Understanding. This is in order for people to Teach each other through Living the Lesson.

Why is it everyone thinks they need to be saved? Is God supposed to save you from yourself? If God does, how would you learn what to do? As I see it. It is so Easy. Make good choices. Practice Unconditional Love which is doing what is best for all those in your life. What joy will there be when it all returns!

Yes, those around us are making bad choices. These are many lessons we have already learned. For those of us who must watch, perhaps it is a reminder of what the True answers really are. The actions of others should never lead one to hate. Hate is something no one will enjoy returning. That is how I see it.

One is supposed to choose for themselves. Life's lessons are best learned that way.

URAVIP2ME said:

In a sense I agree that religion becomes obsolete through people themselves.
Revelation speaks of ' religious waters ' (people) just as a river can dry up, people will dry up (spiritually) as found at Revelation 16:12; Revelation 17:1; Revelation 17:15.

With backing the U.N. can be strengthened to the point that the U.N. will turn on religion (starting with Christendom).
What I think will remain are those who are willing to follow the 1st-century teaching of Jesus. So to me, Not all religion will become obsolete but people who would bring ruin to Earth (literal or moral) will become obsolete.

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Look at the Earth from the beginning of time. Brains win. Acquiring and attaining knowledge is bringing rewards. Intelligence will make religion obsolete after the masses reach a certain point. There is no need to worry. God has always been here even long before mankind invented religion.

Worry not about the Earth being ruined or destroyed. The classroom will not be allowed to be destroyed. On the other hand, there might come some real challenges along the road to intelligence.

Milton Platt said:

I wish you the best on your journey. but remember that the burden of proof does not rest on the one seeking knowledge. It rests upon the one making the claim.

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If you think that then all you really care about are Beliefs. You have already made your choice. One who searches and cares about Real Truth finds the Proof for themselves. They could never settle for the Beliefs of others. As I see it, you want me to prove to you so you can Believe. If my goal was the same as religion, I would be more forthcoming, however is that the best for you to lead you to becoming dependent on me for answers?

I'm afraid, I will only point to where you are capable of Discovery for yourself. As I see it, you will be Happier if it's done this way. It all rests in your hands just as it rested in mine long ago.

The answer is simple. What do you want? Isn't freedom wonderful??

Carlita said:

I dont see it. We humans are being egotistical to say god cares about us and no other person in the galaxy. As if god is only limited to people on earth.

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It is interesting that Genesis 1:1 says that "God created the heavens and the earth". In Hebrew, the word for "earth" is "'erets'" and it has a wide usage of meaning.....

" ʼerets, eh'-rets; from an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land):—× common, country, earth, field, ground, land..."

Genesis Chapter 1 (NASB)

In the following verses in Genesis you can see that "erets" is used for the land itself bringing forth vegetation.
When you see how this word is used in other parts of the Bible, (see the linked page) it expands the meaning somewhat.
In Exodus it speaks about the "land (erets) of Egypt." Its the same word used in Genesis 1:1 but doesn't mean the planet.

The Promised "Land" was also a geographical location, still using the word "erets".

Yet Deuteronomy 3:24 speaks of "heaven and earth" as contrasts, so clearly distinguishing between the material earthly realm and the invisible heavenly one. Context determines the meaning.

There could well be other planets out there in the universe with "earth" (land, soil) that could support life, but I believe that this "earth" is the start of the process of inhabiting the universe. Getting all the "bugs" out of the system before putting life elsewhere makes sense, because God did not create us to be robotic with no choice but to perform as 'programmed'. Part of being a parent is to be loved by our children, and having them obedient to us because they love us and trust our judgment more than their own inexperience. Yet if our children disobey us and get themselves into trouble in the process, we cannot stop the consequences of their actions from hurting them or us......all we can do is tell them we love them, but allow the experience to be the better teacher. Object lessons have so much more impact than words, especially if there is pain and suffering in the outcome. That is what humanity have been faced with since our first parents stepped outside of the limits God placed on them for their own good.

When you see how God started things off and how we lost the paradise conditions he designed us to live in, you will see in the Bible how he gets it back for us through the life and teachings of his son.

"Peace" is not just the absence of war, but a condition of the heart that comes from feeling secure and safe and loved......all of the things we had at the beginning....and the Bible says will have again in the end. Only when God's children learn to use free will unselfishly, will "God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven".....as Jesus taught us.

Just some food for thought.

Bird123 said:

If you think that then all you really care about are Beliefs. You have already made your choice. One who searches and cares about Real Truth finds the Proof for themselves. They could never settle for the Beliefs of others. As I see it, you want me to prove to you so you can Believe. If my goal was the same as religion, I would be more forthcoming, however is that the best for you to lead you to becoming dependent on me for answers?

I'm afraid, I will only point to where you are capable of Discovery for yourself. As I see it, you will be Happier if it's done this way. It all rests in your hands just as it rested in mine long ago.

The answer is simple. What do you want? Isn't freedom wonderful??

Click to expand...

Religion is not based on proof (or more correctly, evidence) it is based on belief, generally unjustified belief.

And it is a fact that anyone who makes a claim has the burden of proof. The act of seeking knowledge carrys no such burden. Just how it is.

I am not dependent on you for anything. That is a dodge to prevent you from supporting your beliefs (whatever they may be) with evidence.

If you have no intent of explaining what you believe and why you believe it, then what is your purpose here? I'm fine with you believing whatever floats your boat, but if you have no interest in exploring your beliefs with others, what is the point in you posting about them?

Deeje said:

It is interesting that Genesis 1:1 says that "God created the heavens and the earth". In Hebrew, the word for "earth" is "'erets'" and it has a wide usage of meaning.....

" ʼerets, eh'-rets; from an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land):—× common, country, earth, field, ground, land..."

Genesis Chapter 1 (NASB)

In the following verses in Genesis you can see that "erets" is used for the land itself bringing forth vegetation.
When you see how this word is used in other parts of the Bible, (see the linked page) it expands the meaning somewhat.
In Exodus it speaks about the "land (erets) of Egypt." Its the same word used in Genesis 1:1 but doesn't mean the planet.

The Promised "Land" was also a geographical location, still using the word "erets".

Yet Deuteronomy 3:24 speaks of "heaven and earth" as contrasts, so clearly distinguishing between the material earthly realm and the invisible heavenly one. Context determines the meaning.

There could well be other planets out there in the universe with "earth" (land, soil) that could support life, but I believe that this "earth" is the start of the process of inhabiting the universe. Getting all the "bugs" out of the system before putting life elsewhere makes sense, because God did not create us to be robotic with no choice but to perform as 'programmed'. Part of being a parent is to be loved by our children, and having them obedient to us because they love us and trust our judgment more than their own inexperience. Yet if our children disobey us and get themselves into trouble in the process, we cannot stop the consequences of their actions from hurting them or us......all we can do is tell them we love them, but allow the experience to be the better teacher. Object lessons have so much more impact than words, especially if there is pain and suffering in the outcome. That is what humanity have been faced with since our first parents stepped outside of the limits God placed on them for their own good.

When you see how God started things off and how we lost the paradise conditions he designed us to live in, you will see in the Bible how he gets it back for us through the life and teachings of his son.

"Peace" is not just the absence of war, but a condition of the heart that comes from feeling secure and safe and loved......all of the things we had at the beginning....and the Bible says will have again in the end. Only when God's children learn to use free will unselfishly, will "God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven".....as Jesus taught us.

Just some food for thought.

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It seems like we are so egotistical to think god is only limited to the people on earth. It's a huge evidence that god's existence is dependent on us. The bible you quoted just repeats what people on earth say.

I don't see how little after 2,000 years makes something more divine or more authority than what we have now. We are so full of our selves.

Carlita said:

It seems like we are so egotistical to think god is only limited to the people on earth. It's a huge evidence that god's existence is dependent on us. The bible you quoted just repeats what people on earth say.

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I agree that humans are very egocentric, but I believe that we are just the beginning of God's populating of the universe. The issues raised in Eden had to be settled once and for all time or there would have been no peace among mankind alienated from their Creator by disobedience. The abuse of free will was going to inevitably mean that humans became the most important creatures in existence and that they would just go on trying to make others submit to their will. Humans were not designed to rule over other humans...they were designed to be ruled by their wise and loving Creator.

As soon as you give a man power, it always corrupts him in one way or another. What human ruler has ever been adored by all his subjects and been instrumental in making laws to benefit those subjects before himself? What politician ever gains office and is able to buck the system and introduce laws that will end poverty and make healthcare available to all without demanding more than the poor can afford? Poverty and homelessness are the two biggest issues facing governments today with no hope of ever addressing them in sight. The problems just continue to escalate.

The Bible promises an end to poverty and a permanent cure for all sickness, aging and disability. (Revelation 21:2-4)
No human can make those promises and deliver them. No human ever has.....except Jesus Christ.

I don't see how little after 2,000 years makes something more divine or more authority than what we have now. We are so full of our selves.

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Can you explain this statement? I am not sure what you mean.....?

Deeje said:

I agree that humans are very egocentric, but I believe that we are just the beginning of God's populating of the universe. The issues raised in Eden had to be settled once and for all time or there would have been no peace among mankind alienated from their Creator by disobedience. The abuse of free will was going to inevitably mean that humans became the most important creatures in existence and that they would just go on trying to make others submit to their will. Humans were not designed to rule over other humans...they were designed to be ruled by their wise and loving Creator.

As soon as you give a man power, it always corrupts him in one way or another. What human ruler has ever been adored by all his subjects and been instrumental in making laws to benefit those subjects before himself? What politician ever gains office and is able to buck the system and introduce laws that will end poverty and make healthcare available to all without demanding more than the poor can afford? Poverty and homelessness are the two biggest issues facing governments today with no hope of ever addressing them in sight. The problems just continue to escalate.

The Bible promises an end to poverty and a permanent cure for all sickness, aging and disability. (Revelation 21:2-4)
No human can make those promises and deliver them. No human ever has.....except Jesus Christ.

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Do you see where this, above (and all other posts not just yours), revolve around you and the believer(s) rather than the universe and everything as a whole?

It starts off "human-centered" the bible. It's very egotistic to think we are the start of god's creation. That limits god terribly unless, as I believe, he is dependant on us to exist not the other way around. Nothing wrong with that. Just you guys don't see it.

I don't see how little after 2,000 years makes something more divine or more authority than what we have now. We are so full of our selves.

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You all quote the bible a lot and it hasn't been that long since the bible has been written and put together. The time the bible was written was on the same earth with the same people (human beings) just as today. Yet, you quote the bible as if it were divine and everything now is not.

When did that gap happen where divinity just stopped in it's tracks?

After the Church declared christianity the government religion?
After a few popes down the line?

Something in history made people not consider anything written and any person today divine as it were back then. And it wasn't that long ago.

What's up with that?

Bird123 said:

After all this, you still do not have a clue what I have been saying. All those bad choices are supposed to be made. They are part of the Learning process. The only way to Solve the problem is to Learn the Lessons. Once one understands all sides, your Intelligence will choose the intelligent way.
In a multilevel classroom, one has many different levels of Understanding. This is in order for people to Teach each other through Living the Lesson.
Why is it everyone thinks they need to be saved? Is God supposed to save you from yourself? If God does, how would you learn what to do? As I see it. It is so Easy. Make good choices. Practice Unconditional Love which is doing what is best for all those in your life. What joy will there be when it all returns!
Yes, those around us are making bad choices. These are many lessons we have already learned. For those of us who must watch, perhaps it is a reminder of what the True answers really are. The actions of others should never lead one to hate. Hate is something no one will enjoy returning. That is how I see it.
One is supposed to choose for themselves. Life's lessons are best learned that way.

Click to expand...

I find if we live by applying the Golden Rule we can avoid many bad choices.
In other words, we do Not have to simply learn by ' trial and error '.
We can learn Jesus' way, Jesus' choices, and can choose his way or not to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as he did according to John 13:34-35.

I don't know why ' everyone ' thinks they need to be saved, but I do know why Jesus' followers need to be saved.
We need to be saved ( rescued/delivered ) from enemy death. Because we can Not resurrect oneself or another we need someone who can ' resurrect ' us from enemy death. According to Revelation 1:18 Jesus can and will.

As for our day, or time frame, we are nearing the soon coming ' time of separation ' of Matthew 25:31-33,37.
That means we who are alive at that time, can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth right into the start of calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth begins.

Carlita said:

When did that gap happen where divinity just stopped in it's tracks?
After the Church declared christianity the government religion?
After a few popes down the line?
Something in history made people not consider anything written and any person today divine as it were back then. And it wasn't that long ago.
What's up with that?

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I would say ' divinity ' stopped in its tracks when the first century ended.
People interested in the Bible can read that at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 that after the first century an apostasy would set in. To me that is the starting point of ' divinity stopping in its tracks '.
Constantine declared ' Christendom ' (so-called Christianity) the official religion of that government.
Mankind's history since then made people not consider Christendom because of thinking Christendom as Christianity.
What's up since then, is that Revelation 1:10 is written for out day or time frame.
Christendom is exposed because people can compare Christendom's customs or traditions with the first-century teachings of Christ as recorded in Scripture and thus see the difference for themselves.

URAVIP2ME said:

I would say ' divinity ' stopped in its tracks when the first century ended.
People interested in the Bible can read that at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 that after the first century an apostasy would set in. To me that is the starting point of ' divinity stopping in its tracks '.
Constantine declared ' Christendom ' (so-called Christianity) the official religion of that government.
Mankind's history since then made people not consider Christendom because of thinking Christendom as Christianity.
What's up since then, is that Revelation 1:10 is written for out day or time frame.
Christendom is exposed because people can compare Christendom's customs or traditions with the first-century teachings of Christ as recorded in Scripture and thus see the difference for themselves.

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I'm not familiar with Christendom. I've always referred to christianity as, well, christianity. The negativity behind christiandom really blinds understanding what you're saying about divinity and how it was present in one time period and disappeared in the next.

Carlita said:

I'm not familiar with Christendom. I've always referred to christianity as, well, christianity. The negativity behind christiandom really blinds understanding what you're saying about divinity and how it was present in one time period and disappeared in the next.

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To me, the first-century teaching as mentioned at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 shows false clergy ( dressed in sheep's clothing ) would fleece the flock of God. Out of false religious teachings came the birth of 'Christendom'.
False clergy began teaching church customs, or church traditions, as Scripture when Not in Scripture.
None of which makes the teachings of Jesus as wrong, but makes the false clergy as wrong.
In the early centuries (dark ages) many were forbidden to have, or to read, the Bible.
So, false clergy could easily teach what was non-biblical as being biblical and the flock Not be aware.
That clergy apostasy lasted for centuries before common people were able to get their hands on the Bible.
Little by little spiritual light (Bible knowledge) got brighter and brighter and continues to do so.
Even modern technology today has helped make rapid Bible translation possible so that people, even in remote areas of Earth, can now have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages.

Carlita said:

It starts off "human-centered" the bible. It's very egotistic to think we are the start of god's creation. That limits god terribly unless, as I believe, he is dependant on us to exist not the other way around. Nothing wrong with that. Just you guys don't see it.

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That is like saying that your parents depend on you to exist. They could have existed quite happily without you. God existed for unknown eons of time before he decided to become a Creator. According to the Bible, he is an immortal, eternal being that humans cannot possibly conceptualize....apart from the little that he divulges about himself and the revelation of his personality perfectly reflected in his son. I fail to understand your reasoning there.

Carlita said:

You all quote the bible a lot and it hasn't been that long since the bible has been written and put together. The time the bible was written was on the same earth with the same people (human beings) just as today. Yet, you quote the bible as if it were divine and everything now is not.

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That would be because the Bible is about humankind as well as the role of God's angelic sons, who existed long before the material universe was created. Humans are not his only creation but they too are mortal. Not being material creatures, they have no natural cause of death, but can be eliminated from existence by the Creator if they abuse their free will....just like us.
The Bible was written about an angel hijacking the human race because he wanted worship......and humans, through their multiplicities of religious faiths, are giving it to him by default. All false worship is rejected by the true God, so it goes to the only other 'god' who demands it. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) The Creator gives us all the choice of whom we will serve.

When did that gap happen where divinity just stopped in it's tracks?

After the Church declared christianity the government religion?
After a few popes down the line?

Click to expand...

As my fellow JW has already mentioned, it was foretold that apostasy would overtake Christianity, in the same way that it overtook Judaism. Religious tradition was substituted for God's word and Jesus said that it made God's word "invalid".

He said to the Pharisees....."So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said:  ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me.  It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” (Matthew 15:6-9)

It was the prophet Daniel who alluded to the time when God would prepare humanity for a separation, ready for the 'coming' of his kingdom. Jesus said that these ones would be like "wheat" or "weeds"....."sheep" or "goats". Daniel called it "the time of the end". (Daniel 2:44; 12:9-10) Knowledge and understanding was to be granted to certain ones at this time, and they were to sound the warning to all mankind, just as Noah sounded the warning about the flood. (Matthew 24:37-39)

According to scripture, we are all judged by the same judge as either a "sheep or a goat"....there is nothing in between. Jesus said there are only two roads that exist in this "time of the end"......one leads to everlasting life...the other to everlasting destruction. (Matthew 7:13-14) We decide which road to take.

Something in history made people not consider anything written and any person today divine as it were back then. And it wasn't that long ago.

What's up with that?

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History has revealed exactly that the Bible said would happen. The last divine personage to walk the earth was Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us why we need no other. Everything that Jesus taught is still with us...still teaching us in a book that has survived all attempts to destroy it, so that today, in this "time of the end" we can all have access to it and read its message.

It all makes perfect sense to us JW's, but we know it won't make sense to everyone.

Quoting scripture doesn't help me understand. It's like pointing to chinese characters (though I know no chinese and can't read it) trying to explain it, and I ask you to translate and you point to the characters again.

Deeje said:

That is like saying that your parents depend on you to exist. They could have existed quite happily without you. God existed for unknown eons of time before he decided to become a Creator. According to the Bible, he is an immortal, eternal being that humans cannot possibly conceptualize....apart from the little that he divulges about himself and the revelation of his personality perfectly reflected in his son. I fail to understand your reasoning there.

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God is not a being. He is an experience and from your mind. That is like saying your mind and thoughts existed before you were born.

That is why the bible makes sense to you but not to me. If it were a universal book, I'd be able to understand it regardless if I disagree with it. It's not black and white. Aka: quoting doesn't work.

Deeje said:

That would be because the Bible is about humankind as well as the role of God's angelic sons, who existed long before the material universe was created. Humans are not his only creation but they too are mortal. Not being material creatures, they have no natural cause of death, but can be eliminated from existence by the Creator if they abuse their free will....just like us.

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It's still self-centered (or human centered). It doesn't capture universe as a whole but assumes that we are the center of the universe. As if "god" cares more about us than anyone else. That's silly.

Deeje said:

As my fellow JW has already mentioned, it was foretold that apostasy would overtake Christianity, in the same way that it overtook Judaism. Religious tradition was substituted for God's word and Jesus said that it made God's word "invalid".

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Shrugs.

If you want me to undertand, you have to put away the bible quotes and use analogies and examples. I learn better by hearing your experiences and opinions not repeated information I can read on my own.

We have different learning styles. Not everyone learn the same way. Religion isn't an exclusion.

(Also, we have opposite views of tradition. I feel it's necessary. You don't. Nothing more to discuss)