Just Accidental?

It Aint Necessarily So said:

I noted that meekness is not humility. Meekness is, "being submissive and easily imposed upon. The meek are used by others because they don't stand up for themselves. They're fearful and weak in spirit."

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Numbers 12:3.

And Moses resisted Pharoah, face to face. Doesn't seem that your definition meets the facts regarding Moses! His meekness was in relation to Jehovah, not to men!

Neither is ours. Moses was a fine example. We're not easily misled by fallible men, either.

Thumper said:

Elohim - Wikipedia

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An excerpt from your posted article:


"The word Elohim occurs more than 2500 times in the Hebrew Bible, with meanings ranging from "gods" in a general sense (as in Exodus 12:12, where it describes "the gods of Egypt"), to specific gods (e.g., 1 Kings 11:33, where it describes Chemosh "the god of Moab", or the frequent references to Yahweh (Jehovah) as the "elohim" of Israel...."

Using Elohim for Chemosh simply describes how the Moabites viewed their god Chemosh, as better and higher than all others, not that he was a triad or anything!

The same with the Scripture I posted, where the Philistines called their god, Dagan, 'elohim'. They thought he was the superlative god. Again, not a triad.

BTW, "Yahweh" doesn't mean "Lord" (that's what Baal means); the meaning is, "He Causes to Become."

Hockeycowboy said:

There is abundant evidence that the earth once enjoyed a uniformly warm climate. Coal seams, found in the polar regions, are evidence that lush forests once grew there. Now, there is only snow and ice. A fallen 90-foot fruit tree, with ripe fruit and green leaves still on its branches, was discovered in the frozen ground of the New Siberian Islands; only 1-inch high willows grow now. Palm tree fossils have been found in Alaska. Delicate sedges, bluebells, and butter-cups have been discovered in the mouths of some of the frozen Mammoths in Siberia, where scientists have found large herds of grazing animals! No permafrost at that time!

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The earth was uniformly "warm" once, but not because of climate. It was due to continual bombardment by asteroids and comets, which kept its surface bubbling.

Are you aware of plate tectonic theory? The land masses near the poles were often equatorial once.

It would be helpful if you would source your claims.

Deeje said:

. Microbes morphed into dinosaurs ....so believable...just chuck in a few billion years. No fairy story there.

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Most of Christiandom accepts that concept:

[1] Baylor University, the largest Baptist University in the world has stated: "Evolution, a foundational principle of modern biology, is supported by overwhelming scientific evidence and is accepted by the vast majority of scientists. Because it is fundamental to the understanding of modern biology, the faculty in the Biology Department at Baylor University, Waco, TX, teach evolution throughout the biology curriculum. We are in accordance with the American Association for Advancement of Science's statement on evolution. We are a science department, so we do not teach alternative hypotheses or philosophically deduced theories that cannot be tested rigorously."

[2] The Vatican claims Darwin's theory of evolution is compatible with Christianity
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html ; Pope John Paul Paul II said, "new scientific knowledge has led us to the conclusion that the theory of evolution is no longer a mere hypothesis."

[3] The United Methodist Church : "THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the General Conference of the United Methodist Church go on record as opposing the introduction of any faith-based theories such as Creationism or Intelligent Design into the science curriculum of our public schools." United Methodist Church: Evolution and Intelligent Design

[4] The Church of England, 2009:"Charles Darwin: 200 years from your birth, the Church of England owes you an apology for misunderstanding you and, by getting our first reaction wrong, encouraging others to misunderstand you still. We try to practise the old virtues of 'faith seeking understanding' and hope that makes some amends."

[5] In the main atrium in Notre Dame's new Jordan Hall of Science, there is a plaque that reads: "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."

[6] Here are more Christians rejecting ID as pseudoscience: http://en.wikipedia.org

Thumper said:

You sound like you're talking about how a slave should behave. And you think drowning all men, women, and children on the planet except for one family was deserved? Bone cancer in children is deserved? No, a loving parent does not act that way, ever.

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Again all of that is said out of pure ignorance. This is the Creator.....the rightful Sovereign of the Universe that you are talking about. He is not a mere human with human limitations with no way to evaluate what he intends to do on a level you would never be able to comprehend. He is the sole arbiter of life and death.....like it or not.....he doesn't have to answer to ignorant humans for any of his actions....and death is fully reversible for him. Remember Lazarus? Jesus said he was just "sleeping". (John 11:11-14) The dead will be returned to life to learn about the requirements of their Creator. (John 5:28, 29)
Sickness and suffering? It will never be remembered. (Isaiah 65:17)

The flood was brought on a wicked world in much the same moral state as the world we live in now......it will have the same outcome......only the "ark" is now spiritual, not physical. We still have to build it from scratch.

If you come upon a nest of scorpions, venomous spiders or rattle snakes in your house, do you preserve the babies and only eradicate their parents? What will these babies grow up to be? Do you want them around your children? Through Noah, God gave the population due warning, but no one listened. (Matthew 24:37-39) They were very happy in their ignorance and to heap ridicule upon Noah and his family......but not for long.

Suffering, sickness, aging and death are all due to "sin"....an archery term meaning to "miss the mark".....this was something unleashed upon mankind by our forefather Adam. We all 'miss the mark' of human perfection, because free will was abused. What have we learned about the proper use of free will? Not much as far as I can see.

Why did God not just destroy the rebels at the start? What would that have proven? That God is more powerful? The devil never challenged God's power.....he challenged his right to set reasonable limits for his human creation. The only way for God to demonstrate to all the validity of his sovereignty was to allow humans to exercise their own sovereignty and see for themselves that everything goes 'belly up' without obeying the rules laid down by our Creator. He has given all of us enough rope to well and truly hang ourselves. We do the hanging though.

That you really believe you will be happy in heaven while knowing that the vast majority of the people on this planet, including some of your family and friends, will be left out, says a lot about you.

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Who said we are all going to heaven? That was never in the original plan. God chooses the citizens he wants to live in his kingdom, based on how they think and act. All countries reserve the right to refuse entry to those it considers undesirable. Why would we expect any less of God? He is the one who makes the rules.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

The earth was uniformly "warm" once, but not because of climate. It was due to continual bombardment by asteroids and comets, which kept its surface bubbling.

Are you aware of plate tectonic theory? The land masses near the poles were often equatorial once.

It would be helpful if you would source your claims.

Most of Christiandom accepts that concept:

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That would be "Christendom"....and we are no part of that fractured fiasco. We hold no beliefs in common with any mainstream churches, so your comparison is meaningless. It just demonstrates how much they have sold out to unproven science.

Hockeycowboy said:

Enough to dissipate the Sun's rays, thereby affecting radiocarbon dating. It explains why there are such huge jumps in the age-determination of organisms, dating its 14C, which lived more than 5,000 years ago! 5,000 years ago...Hmm....

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Cloud cover does not effect the rays which cause conversion of N14 to C14.

Genesis 1:6-8
"Then God said: “Let there be an expanse between the waters, and let there be a division between the waters and the waters.” 7 Then God went on to make the expanse and divided the waters beneath the expanse from the waters above the expanse. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse Heaven"

Earth's atmosphere was produced between "the waters and the waters" dividing 'the waters beneath the expanse from the waters above the expanse". A vast canopy of water was suspended above the earth's atmosphere. This would have affected earth's climate, creating a 'hothouse' of warmth and moisture where living things would thrive forever.

The apostle Peter wrote centuries later.....
"First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”
5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people."

It was the "word of God" that held those waters in place. No "scientific" explanation of men is necessary.

No one believed Noah and this scenario was to be repeated, just not by a flood this time.....this was backed up by Jesus words in Matthew 24:37-39:

"For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be."

Believe it or not.......I believe it because I see the earth once again 'filled with violence and immorality'. People are again ridiculing God's servants instead of taking the warning seriously. Popular opinion is no indication of the truthfulness of anything.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

The earth was uniformly "warm" once, but not because of climate. It was due to continual bombardment by asteroids and comets, which kept its surface bubbling.

Are you aware of plate tectonic theory? The land masses near the poles were often equatorial once.

It would be helpful if you would source your claims.



Most of Christiandom accepts that concept:

[1] Baylor University, the largest Baptist University in the world has stated: "Evolution, a foundational principle of modern biology, is supported by overwhelming scientific evidence and is accepted by the vast majority of scientists. Because it is fundamental to the understanding of modern biology, the faculty in the Biology Department at Baylor University, Waco, TX, teach evolution throughout the biology curriculum. We are in accordance with the American Association for Advancement of Science's statement on evolution. We are a science department, so we do not teach alternative hypotheses or philosophically deduced theories that cannot be tested rigorously."

[2] The Vatican claims Darwin's theory of evolution is compatible with Christianity
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html ; Pope John Paul Paul II said, "new scientific knowledge has led us to the conclusion that the theory of evolution is no longer a mere hypothesis."

[3] The United Methodist Church : "THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the General Conference of the United Methodist Church go on record as opposing the introduction of any faith-based theories such as Creationism or Intelligent Design into the science curriculum of our public schools." United Methodist Church: Evolution and Intelligent Design

[4] The Church of England, 2009:"Charles Darwin: 200 years from your birth, the Church of England owes you an apology for misunderstanding you and, by getting our first reaction wrong, encouraging others to misunderstand you still. We try to practise the old virtues of 'faith seeking understanding' and hope that makes some amends."

[5] In the main atrium in Notre Dame's new Jordan Hall of Science, there is a plaque that reads: "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."

[6] Here are more Christians rejecting ID as pseudoscience: http://en.wikipedia.org

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Thanks for posting this.

It just reinforces our viewpoint as JW's that Christendom has been corrupted. It was happening during the rule of Constantine the Great in the 4th Century (with religious leaders [disobeying Christ's command to love their enemies --Matthew 5:44] supporting his wars and killing people), down through the Crusades, Inquisition, World Wars I & II, and other conflicts.

They've 'publicly declared they know God, but have disowned Him by their works'. --Titus 1:16. James 4:4.

Very sad. No wonder the hatred of religion is gaining ground! What's worse is that that hatred --or at least apathy -- has been directed toward the Scriptures.

Christendom has been, and is, destroying people's faith in it.

Natural selection is not evolution. It's only one aspect of it. There is psychological selection, when only the worthy are chosen by partners, acquired traits (generally dismissed in "science", but I have fairly firsthand evidence) and spiritual selection, which is the most complex form.

Jose Fly said:

First, what held the water up?

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It depends on where these ice crystals were, stretching between the stratosphere and mesosphere; or maybe it was in gaseous form, somewhere from the mesopause into the thermosphere? Temperatures in that region are certainly hot enough to hold water as steam (vapor).

When science understands more about the interaction between these atmospheric layers, maybe physics will provide an understanding. But I doubt they'll be looking for the answer.... they're indoctrinated to ignore any explanation that might support a Biblical supernatural event.

If scientists did examine the properties of these various layers in light of there possibly being a water canopy suspension in the ancient past, they might uncover new information that results in further helpful discoveries!

How are clouds able to hold tons of hail up in their billows?

I'm sure, if clouds didn't form and weren't observed, many scientists would say that could never happen.

Jose Fly said:

Second, what would a 200 foot thick layer of water in the atmosphere do to the atmospheric pressure at the earth's surface?

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As a liquid, extreme pressure would result probably (depends on where it was). But suspended as a gas, or as sparse crystals, atmospheric pressure wouldn't be a problem.

What happens to scientists who dare to speak about Intelligent Design? They lose their job?

I found this documentary on YouTube.


How scientifically verifiable is macro-evolution really if you can't even mention Intelligent Design without risking your scientific career?

It Aint Necessarily So said:

Meekness is, "being submissive and easily imposed upon. The meek are used by others because they don't stand up for themselves. They're fearful and weak in spirit."

Click to expand...

Hockeycowboy said:

Numbers 12:3.And Moses resisted Pharoah, face to face. Doesn't seem that your definition meets the facts regarding Moses! His meekness was in relation to Jehovah, not to men! Neither is ours. Moses was a fine example.

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Correct. My definition wouldn't apply to Moses. Moses was not a meek man. As you noted, he stood up for himself and his people, and confronted pharaoh. Doesn't that support the idea that meekness is not a virtue? What would a meek man have done? He would have submitted to captivity.

Hockeycowboy said:

We're not easily misled by fallible men, either.

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I'm not sure what you are referring to specifically here, but what protects you from being misled?

Deeje said:

That would be "Christendom"....and we are no part of that fractured fiasco. We hold no beliefs in common with any mainstream churches, so your comparison is meaningless. It just demonstrates how much they have sold out to unproven science.

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What comparison? I was telling you that most Christians will tell you that the theory of evolution is correct, and gave you the official positions of several large Christian institutions. I don't know what your answer has to do with that.

So, you think that your fellow Christians that say that they accept evolution have sold out to science? How did they sell out to science? Science doesn't want anything from them or you. Aren't they still going to heaven?

Deeje said:

It was the "word of God" that held those waters in place. No "scientific" explanation of men is necessary.

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That is why an omniscient, omnipotent god has no use for physical laws and fine tund constants like the laws of planetary motion or the gravitational constant. In a world with a such a god, the planets just simply obey the "word of God." Physical laws imply a self-operating universe.

Deeje said:

Believe it or not.......I believe it because I see the earth once again 'filled with violence and immorality'.

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I see a different world than you do:

I see trees of green, red roses too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world

Deeje said:

People are again ridiculing God's servants instead of taking the warning seriously.

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That's not an either-or proposition. We don't take the Christian warning seriously for the same reason that neither you nor I take the Muslim warning seriously. One can do that without ridiculing "God's servants"

Also, God's servants don't have a very good track record with their warnings. We have been told since New Testament days that these are the end times, that the end of the world is coming soon. Several of God's servants were happy to provide us with a precise date that came and went.

Hockeycowboy said:

Thanks for posting this.

It just reinforces our viewpoint as JW's that Christendom has been corrupted. It was happening during the rule of Constantine the Great in the 4th Century (with religious leaders [disobeying Christ's command to love their enemies --Matthew 5:44] supporting his wars and killing people), down through the Crusades, Inquisition, World Wars I & II, and other conflicts.

They've 'publicly declared they know God, but have disowned Him by their works'. --Titus 1:16. James 4:4.

Very sad. No wonder the hatred of religion is gaining ground! What's worse is that that hatred --or at least apathy -- has been directed toward the Scriptures.

Christendom has been, and is, destroying people's faith in it.

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What you are calling "hatred of religion" is directed toward the church, not the scriptures, and principally for its politicization of religion in the case of the American church and some of the values we see coming from it. Many people resent the church's continual attempts at incursion into their lives, they find the homophobia unkind and off-putting, and they've seen too much division, hypocrisy, and dishonesty and even organized criminal activity in the case of the Catholic church's priest problem.

And there are a few more aspects of American Christianity that people don't care for. There is the sense of persecution, the continual attacks on science that are obviously self-serving and not good for American society, and a sense of privilege as when there is an objection to "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas," or the outrage over somebody wanting to give a secular invocation. These things undoubtedly hurt the public's perception of the church.

But the church's troubles aren't all self-inflicted. Science has made a lot of progress, and none of it involves gods. People just don't see the need for or the evidence for a god in this universe.

Deeje said:

....
Who said we are all going to heaven? That was never in the original plan. God chooses the citizens he wants to live in his kingdom, based on how they think and act. All countries reserve the right to refuse entry to those it considers undesirable. Why would we expect any less of God?

He is the one who makes the rules.

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I wasn't talking about what your book of myths says. I was talking about what type of person would be okay with it. You have made that answer quite clear.

Deeje said:

That would be "Christendom"....and we are no part of that fractured fiasco. We hold no beliefs in common with any mainstream churches, so your comparison is meaningless. It just demonstrates how much they have sold out to unproven science.

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You Deeje are such an invaluable asset to atheists everywhere. I think we should make you an honorary atheist. The damage you do to the credibility of Bible believers everywhere is invaluable. Christendom is a fractured fiasco. Please give us as many derogatory statements you can about your fellow Bible believers. It helps the atheist cause no end.

Hockeycowboy said:

Thanks for posting this.

It just reinforces our viewpoint as JW's that Christendom has been corrupted. It was happening during the rule of Constantine the Great in the 4th Century (with religious leaders [disobeying Christ's command to love their enemies --Matthew 5:44] supporting his wars and killing people), down through the Crusades, Inquisition, World Wars I & II, and other conflicts.

They've 'publicly declared they know God, but have disowned Him by their works'. --Titus 1:16. James 4:4.

Very sad. No wonder the hatred of religion is gaining ground! What's worse is that that hatred --or at least apathy -- has been directed toward the Scriptures.

Christendom has been, and is, destroying people's faith in it.

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Atheists and JW's united against Christendom! Nice slogan!

It Aint Necessarily So said:

What comparison? I was telling you that most Christians will tell you that the theory of evolution is correct, and gave you the official positions of several large Christian institutions. I don't know what your answer has to do with that.

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She is a JW.

And JW are always right, everyone else are wrong. They are the only one who can read and interpret the bible correctly. They are the only who understand science. They are the only who will get to heaven. So all other Christian groups are wrong.

No one can fault this (very deluded JW) logic.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

Correct. My definition wouldn't apply to Moses. Moses was not a meek man. As you noted, he stood up for himself and his people, and confronted pharaoh. Doesn't that support the idea that meekness is not a virtue? What would a meek man have done? He would have submitted to captivity.



I'm not sure what you are referring to specifically here, but what protects you from being misled?

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Hockeycowboy is still confusing humbleness and meekness, as if they were one and the same.

If you tried to explain to him again, the differences between the two, he still won't get it.