Were pre-Fall Adam and Eve "immortal"?

muffled said:

It is difficult to conceive of a tree that keeps people from aging.

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Actually it is not.

There are numbers of ancient literature that I can think of where it restore youth to a person through eating or drinking something.

From the Epic of Gilgamesh, although he failed to achieve immortality like Utnapishtim (the Babylonian version of Noah), Utnapishtim revealed to the hero a plant that would restore his youth, found in the bottom of the sea. However, Gilgamesh lost the plant, when a serpent ate it.

Then there is the Epic of Adapa, one of the Seven Wise Sages from the Sumerian-Akkadian myths. The gods put forward to Adapa the bread of eternal life and water of eternal life, however Adapa had foolishly listen to his patron god Ea (Sumerian Enki) and decline to eat and drink them.

Then there are the ambrosia and nectar of ancient Greek myths, the food and drink of the gods. For the mortals to eat or drink they won't age or die (unless they are killed).

The Dark Age or medieval Norse people believed that the apples of the goddess Idunn kept the gods in Asgard from aging. There is a funny myth that one of the giant abducted Idunn with the aid of Loki. Loki was also the one who rescued Idunn. See Apple of Youth.

So it is not surprising that the ancient Hebrews believed that food can either stop aging or dying, when you find older myths from Mesopotamia than the Genesis, which the Israelites apparently borrowed.

gnostic said:

So it is not surprising that the ancient Hebrews believed that food can either stop aging or dying, when you find older myths from Mesopotamia than the Genesis, which the Israelites apparently borrowed.

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It wasn't the food of the tree of life but what the tree represented.
Adam disobeyed God. That was Adam's sin. Willful disobedience.

After the Flood, there are many myths connected to pre-flood stories.
Mesopotamia was the birth place of pagan religious concepts and ideas.
As the people migrated from ancient Babylon they took with them their pagan beliefs and practices and spread them world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.

That is why we see overlapping similarities in the world's religions today.
We can trace their religious roots all the way back to Mesopotamia.

Watchmen said:

They were immortal before they at the forbidden fruit, but they were not perfect.

They became mortal upon eating the fruit of the Tree of Good and Knowledge and were kept from eating from the Tree of Life so that they would not eat it and live forever in their sins. They needed the redemption of the Savior before they could live forever in a perfect state.

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Watchmen,
Adam nor Eve were ever immortal!!! No flesh and blood person will ever be immortal. Immortal means that they cannot die!!! Immortality, that God gives to ones taken to heaven, means that God promises never to kill them, because they are perfectly known by God, He knows that they will never do anything against His laws. People living on earth will always be subject to the natural laws, so they are never granted immortality, but that are given everlasting life, which means they will never die, but COULD, if they ever became a, SELFBORN evildoer.

12jtartar said:

Watchmen,
Adam nor Eve were ever immortal!!! No flesh and blood person will ever be immortal. Immortal means that they cannot die!!! Immortality, that God gives to ones taken to heaven, means that God promises never to kill them, because they are perfectly known by God, He knows that they will never do anything against His laws. People living on earth will always be subject to the natural laws, so they are never granted immortality, but that are given everlasting life, which means they will never die, but COULD, if they ever became a, SELFBORN evildoer.

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Ok

12jtartar said:

Watchmen,
Adam nor Eve were Never[?] immortal!!!

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And you know this to be a fact because, ____________________________ fill in the blank____________________________________ . From my understanding of Christian theology, most Christians believe god created A&E as immortals, and it was only after they ate the apple that god changed the rules and withdrew their favored standing.

Immortality, that God gives to ones taken to heaven, means that God promises never to kill them

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Does "kill" mean send them to hell, or poof them into non-existence?

because they are perfectly known by God, He knows that they will never do anything against His laws.

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How many people in the world do you think this applies to: those who have never violated any of his laws? From what I've heard, all have sinned and fallen short of his glory. So, which is it?

. People living on earth will always be subject to the natural laws, so they are never granted immortality, but that are given everlasting life, which means they will never die, but COULD, if they ever became a, SELFBORN evildoer.

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Hmm, a new term announces itself to the world: "selfborn evildoer." Care to define this sucker?


.

Hmm, interesting question (the title's). My answer to that specifically is that in Islam there is no mentioning of it. It could have been a normal life just like this one, in terms of mortality, or it could have been not. All descriptions of Heaven in Islam are after resurrection, not before their fall.

...my 2 cents.

Myself I don't believe there was an Adam or Eve, its all a metaphor.

psychoslice said:

Myself I don't believe there was an Adam or Eve, its all a metaphor.

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A metaphor for what?


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Skwim said:

A metaphor for what?


.

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Whatever stage of spirituality you need to be in, of course its not to be taken as literal, it makes no sense.

gnostic said:

We (wordmagnifiedabovenames and I) were getting sidetracked in the thread, Was it fair to kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden? So I thought of starting a new thread.

The question (or debate) was about the Tree of Life and immortality. I think everyone knows the story of how they ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and were expelled from the Garden, so we don't need to dwell on that. So let concentrate this thread on the Tree of Life, and whether they were immortal before they were punished or cursed.

wordmagnifiedabovenames' view was that Adam and Eve were created perfect, free of sins and immortal. They became imperfect, sinful and lost their immortality when they ate the forbidden fruit or when God cursed or punished them.

My view was that they were never immortal before God's decree at their Fall, unless they eat the fruit from the Tree of Life, which they never did. They were created mortals, and were always mortals. My view is that their punishment was not that they lost their immortality and became mortals, but that they would suffer in life and death from then on.

What do you think?

Do you think Adam and Eve were immortal before they ate the forbidden fruit?

Or do you think they were mortals unless they ate from the Tree of Life?
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I guess if they were truly immortal then they would not have been able to be changed to mortal.

gnostic said:

We (wordmagnifiedabovenames and I) were getting sidetracked in the thread, Was it fair to kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden? So I thought of starting a new thread.

The question (or debate) was about the Tree of Life and immortality. I think everyone knows the story of how they ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and were expelled from the Garden, so we don't need to dwell on that. So let concentrate this thread on the Tree of Life, and whether they were immortal before they were punished or cursed.

wordmagnifiedabovenames' view was that Adam and Eve were created perfect, free of sins and immortal. They became imperfect, sinful and lost their immortality when they ate the forbidden fruit or when God cursed or punished them.

My view was that they were never immortal before God's decree at their Fall, unless they eat the fruit from the Tree of Life, which they never did. They were created mortals, and were always mortals. My view is that their punishment was not that they lost their immortality and became mortals, but that they would suffer in life and death from then on.

What do you think?

Do you think Adam and Eve were immortal before they ate the forbidden fruit?

Or do you think they were mortals unless they ate from the Tree of Life?
​

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Since immortality basically means deathlessness, it is obvious to me that Adam and Eve did not have that quality of an indestructible life. They could and would die if disobedient to their Lifegiver. Even if given the right to eat from the tree of life, which I believe symbolizes the gift of endless life, they remain mortal, as do God's Angels.

From my understanding of the word "immortal" I would say Adam and Eve were not immortal. My understanding is that immortality is one who does not need to fear death, as death is impossible for them.

If Adam jumped off a cliff and fell to his "death" would he actually have died? I believe so. As far as I know his body was physical and worked just like ours. If our brains or vital organs are squished and cease functioning, we die.

Would God have saved Adam from such a fate? Or maybe resurrected him after? Possibly yes, but I think Adam and Eve were still liable to death, just not through disease/old age like we are today.

gnostic said:

We (wordmagnifiedabovenames and I) were getting sidetracked in the thread, Was it fair to kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden? So I thought of starting a new thread.

The question (or debate) was about the Tree of Life and immortality. I think everyone knows the story of how they ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and were expelled from the Garden, so we don't need to dwell on that. So let concentrate this thread on the Tree of Life, and whether they were immortal before they were punished or cursed.

wordmagnifiedabovenames' view was that Adam and Eve were created perfect, free of sins and immortal. They became imperfect, sinful and lost their immortality when they ate the forbidden fruit or when God cursed or punished them.

My view was that they were never immortal before God's decree at their Fall, unless they eat the fruit from the Tree of Life, which they never did. They were created mortals, and were always mortals. My view is that their punishment was not that they lost their immortality and became mortals, but that they would suffer in life and death from then on.

What do you think?

Do you think Adam and Eve were immortal before they ate the forbidden fruit?

Or do you think they were mortals unless they ate from the Tree of Life?
​

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we might find a point of agreement!!!!!

I believe Adam was a chosen son of God.
chosen from the masses that were spreading out in all directions

Man would indeed dominate all things as he was given to do....but....
he would overrun the planet and it's resources far too soon......and the spirit of Man would never 'gel'

so the alteration of body and mind in and isolated environment......
a test to be sure the alteration took hold....
and release into the environment

the tree of knowledge was a ploy.

was Man the creature curious to risk death?
so tell him he would die....
and tell him acquisition would make him like God and not die.....
and wait see if he takes the bait

as for the tree of life......
likely a means of feeding the body only what it needs to keep it going
the 'know how' of chemistry and self preservation
( or maybe an author's ruse to explain death)

rusra02 said:

Since immortality basically means deathlessness, it is obvious to me that Adam and Eve did not have that quality of an indestructible life. They could and would die if disobedient to their Lifegiver. Even if given the right to eat from the tree of life, which I believe symbolizes the gift of endless life, they remain mortal, as do God's Angels.

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Since immortality basically means deathlessness, it is obvious to me that Adam and Eve did not have that quality of an indestructible life. They could and would die if disobedient to their Lifegiver. Even if given the right to eat from the tree of life, which I believe symbolizes the gift of endless life, they remain mortal, as do God's Angels.

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I would like to make a comment on your post if I may. I agree with you about immortality. Adam was not immortal. If your immortal, you dont die or sin. Bible says that if you sin, you die. Angels on the other hand, are not mortal, they are immortal. They dont sin or die. We are going to be like the angels at somepoint in time, esp, when Christ returns.

The translators have misinterpeted some verses that might suggest that, but if you read in the org, language, it says otherwise. Paul say, all angels do God's will. Not some, or half, all. There are no rebel angels in heaven at all. God IS in control of everything.

moorea944 said:

I would like to make a comment on your post if I may. I agree with you about immortality. Adam was not immortal. If your immortal, you dont die or sin. Bible says that if you sin, you die. Angels on the other hand, are not mortal, they are immortal. They dont sin or die. We are going to be like the angels at somepoint in time, esp, when Christ returns.

The translators have misinterpeted some verses that might suggest that, but if you read in the org, language, it says otherwise. Paul say, all angels do God's will. Not some, or half, all. There are no rebel angels in heaven at all. God IS in control of everything.

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Please note what Revelation 12:7-9 says about a war in heaven: "And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him." 2 Peter 2:4 speaks about "God...punishing the angels who sinned." While both Adam and angels were created perfect, I believe they have free will, and some Angels allowed wrong desires to lead them to sin, just as Adam did.

URAVIP2ME said:

Muffled-

Agree the tree of life itself did not give everlasting life.
Everlasting life was a gift from God.
Since 'sin' causes death, then disobedience brings death.
Adam having God's blessing, and created with a perfectly healthy sound mind and body, would have never died from accidental death. Only sin brings death. -Rom 6v23;6v7

Where did God change to 70 years? In the 'day' you eat you die.
That 'day' was a thousand-year day. In other words, Adam and everyone living before the Flood could live well past 70-80 years, but live no more than a thousand years.
The oldest person in the Bible died close to a thousand years.

Again, no tree required as the actual source of everlasting life under God's kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus, but as Revelation 22v2 mentions during Christ's millennial reign on either side of the river was the tree of life for the healing or curing of the nations.

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I believe that depends. Not every sin brings physical death. The gods had non-aging life but were often quite sinful and it did not affect that status.

I believe accidental death is not caused by not having a sound mind or body or sin but by being careless.

Sorry about that but I must have read a version that said three score and ten but here is what this version says:
Ge 6:3 And Jehovah said, My Spirit shall not strive with man for ever, for that he also is flesh: yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.

linwood said:

I think it`s obvious they weren`t immortal...



Why would God care enough to guard the tree of life if they already immortal?

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I believe having something isn't the same thing as keeping it. God already told them they would die so that is what is new. I believe knowledge of how to have eternal life is what they are guarded from obtaining. The gods already had eternal life. Did they receive it as a gift or did they just have superior knowledge of how to obtain it..I can't say that I have read everything in the myths so I don't know if that is revealed.

Muffled said:

Sorry about that but I must have read a version that said three score and ten but here is what this version says:
Ge 6:3 And Jehovah said, My Spirit shall not strive with man for ever, for that he also is flesh: yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.

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Perhaps you had Psalms 90:10 in mind about the 3 score and 10 ?______

Yes, in 120 years, the words God spoke to Noah, God did bring the Flood of Noah's Day 120 years after He spoke those words to Noah - Genesis 6:3
In other words, God set a 120 year time limit for the existence for that violent world.
That 120 year time frame gave Noah enough time to Not only have children but for them to grow up and become married adults besides helping Noah to build the Ark.
Those 120 years also allowed righteous Noah and family to to warn that wicked world by preaching to them - 2 Peter 2:5

rusra02 said:

Please note what Revelation 12:7-9 says about a war in heaven: "And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him." 2 Peter 2:4 speaks about "God...punishing the angels who sinned." While both Adam and angels were created perfect, I believe they have free will, and some Angels allowed wrong desires to lead them to sin, just as Adam did.

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Please note what Revelation 12:7-9 says about a war in heaven: "And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."

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Rev is symbollic. There is no war in God's heaven, it is earth's heaven. It's talking about the Roman Empire. The policital heavens or government. I can explain further at another time. There could NEVER be an actual war in Heaven. Think about it.

2 Peter 2:4 speaks about "God...punishing the angels who sinned." While both Adam and angels were created perfect, I believe they have free will, and some Angels allowed wrong desires to lead them to sin, just as Adam did.

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The word for angel is Malek in Hebrew or Angelos in Greek, meaing Messenger. In most cases the translators got it right and put angel. Sometimes it should have been man when it was a messenger. Angels cannot sin. They are immortal, yes, they have free will, but that doesnt mean that they sin. Too many verses that indicate that. Jesus says that someday we will be like the angels. If angels can already sin, why would it matter to be like the angels. Doesnt make sense. Paul says that ALL angels do God's will.

My view is that Genesis (along with much of the Bible) is not literal and the story of Eden is fictitious.