Was The Orlando Shooting Islamic Terrorism or Domestic Gun Violence

columbus · Jun 18, 2016

There is a motive I believe is the biggest thing and not much mentioned. Suicide.
If I understand correctly, he was a horribly conflicted man due to being both devoutly Muslim and gay. In a very sad way, he was also a victim of circumstances. In his twisted mind, "death by cop" was better than the other choices.

Tom

YmirGF · Jun 18, 2016

columbus said:
There is a motive I believe is the biggest thing and not much mentioned. Suicide.
If I understand correctly, he was a horribly conflicted man due to being both devoutly Muslim and gay. In a very sad way, he was also a victim of circumstances. In his twisted mind, "death by cop" was better than the other choices.

Tom

Forgive me if I don't cry up a tear for the fellow. I don't really buy into that whole idea.

Sees · Jun 18, 2016

metis said:
And @Sees How could it not be classified as being "domestic gun violence" as it fits all three terms used? [see post #5]

It's like using the term "hate crime" if Billy Bob stabs his cousin Bubba to death, because he was known to hate Bubba. It's not how we use it, even though we could make it fit just looking at the specific words used. If it isn't in home or family related -then it isn't "domestic violence." Whatever weapon/s are used doesn't change things.

Personally I see the Florida event as a hate crime first and Islamic terrorism a distant second.

Crypto2015 · Jun 18, 2016

Islamic terrorism of course. The shooter's father supports the Taliban and the shooter's wife knew of his plans and said nothing. Furthermore, he texted her while he was killing those people and she replied that she loved him. This is not just a guy who went mad. This is a sane guy acting in accordance with an ideology that was shared with his most immediate family members, just like in the case of the Tsarnaev brothers and their Jihad-supporting mother.

Crypto2015 · Jun 18, 2016

columbus said:
There is a motive I believe is the biggest thing and not much mentioned. Suicide.
If I understand correctly, he was a horribly conflicted man due to being both devoutly Muslim and gay. In a very sad way, he was also a victim of circumstances. In his twisted mind, "death by cop" was better than the other choices.

Tom

He wasn't gay. He went to that bar several times because he needed to plan everything in detail. Perhaps he had carried concealed weapons to that place more than once, but decided not to use them.

metis · Jun 18, 2016

YmirGF said:
It's almost like you didn't read what I wrote originally.

My main resistance to "domestic gun violence" is that the term purposely ignores the religious elements that were very much a part of the event. Not too many "domestic gun violence" cases happen where the shooter is merrily yelling "Allahu Akbar (god is great).... Failure to include that element of the event is irresponsible and misleading. It's similar to the dangerous precedent displayed after Nidal Hasan killed so many at Fort Hood also while yelling "Allahu Akbar" and then have it listed as "workplace violence". It is willful disinformation.

Except I did include it when I said it was "Both Equally", which I explained and qualified in my post #5. Therefore, let me suggest that it was not I who was "irresponsible" and citing "willful disinformation".

metis · Jun 18, 2016

Sees said:
It's like using the term "hate crime" if Billy Bob stabs his cousin Bubba to death, because he was known to hate Bubba. It's not how we use it, even though we could make it fit just looking at the specific words used. If it isn't in home or family related -then it isn't "domestic violence." Whatever weapon/s are used doesn't change things.

Personally I see the Florida event as a hate crime first and Islamic terrorism a distant second.

I see what you're saying, but the poll doesn't seem to use the word "domestic" in that context since it clearly was not a family dispute that was involved. However, I will grant you that it is a word that can be used in more than one way.

Altfish · Jun 18, 2016

Would someone like to give me a definition of 'Terrorism'?

metis · Jun 18, 2016

Also, even though the shooter definitely referred to ISIS, it is still unclear as to what his exact motivation was. Remember, terrorists and murderers almost always have an excuse for their actions, and it still begs the question whether he was mainly angry over certain personal matters or whether he indeed was carrying out actions motivated by ISIS-- or both. From what I can gather, the investigators still are not certain, although they may know more now but haven't disclosed their findings as of yet.

columbus · Jun 18, 2016

Crypto2015 said:
He wasn't gay. He went to that bar several times because he needed to plan everything in detail. Perhaps he had carried concealed weapons to that place more than once, but decided not to use them.

I'm not a mind reader, which is why I qualified my opinion. But deeply conflicted gay people, often due to conservative religious upbringing, can be extremely destructive. Especially to themselves.
This is not about sympathy, only understanding.
Tom

YmirGF · Jun 18, 2016

metis said:
Except I did include it when I said it was "Both Equally", which I explained and qualified in my post #5. Therefore, let me suggest that it was not I who was "irresponsible" and citing "willful disinformation".

Personally, I'm trying to figure out what we are actually arguing for.

Altfish · Jun 18, 2016

I understood that ISIS has issued an instruction along the lines of, "Carry out shootings, bombings, etc. on your own homeland in the name of ISIS". The logic being that it takes no central organisation and they are the hardest to prevent.

So, it could be inspired by ISIS's edict in which case it is terrorism. But it is a grey area to say the least.
And, to be honest, what does it matter. It was an awful atrocity that the perpetrator carried out in the name of his religion.

Nietzsche · Jun 18, 2016

Both.

Like some matrimony in the bowels of hell, a few horrible things came together and gave us something even worse.

Kinda like the RNC and DNC this year, really.

Shadow Wolf · Jun 18, 2016

I would say "other" if it was an option, because the issue is deeper than Islamic extremism or gun violence. We also cannot exclude this was a hate crime reflecting self-hate, which isn't something that is exclusive to religion (we also have many cultural issues that fuel self-hatred within the LBGT community). While this is definitely the most extreme example that we have, we cannot neglect to bring up that our culture of wanting LBGT people to shut up, stay in the closet, and to tell LBGT people they are damned, deviant, and perverted can lead to problems, though we more typically see things such as drug abuse and suicide.

gsa · Jun 18, 2016

Shadow Wolf said:
I would say "other" if it was an option, because the issue is deeper than Islamic extremism or gun violence. We also cannot exclude this was a hate crime reflecting self-hate, which isn't something that is exclusive to religion (we also have many cultural issues that fuel self-hatred within the LBGT community). While this is definitely the most extreme example that we have, we cannot neglect to bring up that our culture of wanting LBGT people to shut up, stay in the closet, and to tell LBGT people they are damned, deviant, and perverted can lead to problems, though we more typically see things such as drug abuse and suicide.

In fact, when was the last time that we saw a repressed/self-loathing gay guy shoot up a bar full of gay people? Just how often does that happen, exactly?
And if they did it and claimed allegiance to Christian Identity or some other extremist hate group, I suspect that we might, just might assume that their motivation was at least quasi-religious as well. Just totally wild speculation here. I'm sure that the fact that he murdered about fifty people and shot just over fifty more has nothing, nothing whatsoever to do with the Most Misunderstood Religion of Peace Ever.

And yes, I know that this is when I get a lecture on mental illness and gun violence and American homophobia and gee golly gosh why oh why do you evil white males pick on the Most Misunderstood Religion of Peace Ever instead of focusing all your hate and anger on Evil White Males Who Have Done Everything Wrong.

Shadow Wolf · Jun 18, 2016

gsa said:
In fact, when was the last time that we saw a repressed/self-loathing gay guy shoot up a bar full of gay people? Just how often does that happen, exactly?
And if they did it and claimed allegiance to Christian Identity or some other extremist hate group, I suspect that we might, just might assume that their motivation was at least quasi-religious as well. Just totally wild speculation here. I'm sure that the fact that he murdered about fifty people and shot just over fifty more has nothing, nothing whatsoever to do with the Most Misunderstood Religion of Peace Ever.

And yes, I know that this is when I get a lecture on mental illness and gun violence and American homophobia and gee golly gosh why oh why do you evil white males pick on the Most Misunderstood Religion of Peace Ever instead of focusing all your hate and anger on Evil White Males Who Have Done Everything Wrong.

And clearly you misunderstood what I said, because I never said it didn't involve Islamic extremism, but rather the issue is more than just Islamic extremism and more than just gun violence.

LuisDantas · Jun 18, 2016

columbus said:
There is a motive I believe is the biggest thing and not much mentioned. Suicide.
If I understand correctly, he was a horribly conflicted man due to being both devoutly Muslim and gay. In a very sad way, he was also a victim of circumstances. In his twisted mind, "death by cop" was better than the other choices.

Tom

That would be sad (and is), but his decision of making dozens of other people pay an irreversible price for his conflict does not endear him to me.

Saint Frankenstein · Jun 18, 2016

Domestic gun violence by a mentally ill person who appeared to have a mixture of ASPD and psychotic traits, as the evidence is showing. His father has psychotic traits, as well, so mental illness may run in his family. Doesn't seem to have much to do with Islam at all. It being a hate crime is debatable, too. Need to wait for more info.

columbus · Jun 18, 2016

LuisDantas said:
That would be sad (and is), but his decision of making dozens of other people pay an irreversible price for his conflict does not endear him to me.

Of course it doesn't. As I said, it's not about sympathy but understanding.
@Crypto2015 flatly stated that Mateen wasn't gay. I don't think he is a mind reader either.
I'm not claiming to know this particular murderer. But I do know a fair amount about destructive gay people. Especially closeted ones.
Tom

That one dude... · Jun 18, 2016

Seems to me this was Islam-inspired domestic terrorism through the use of gun violence against a specific segment of the population, the LGBT.
For the purposes of this poll, I guess that's both.

Was The Orlando Shooting Islamic Terrorism or Domestic Gun Violence

How Do You Interprate The Orlando Shooting

Islamic Terrorism

Domestic Gun Violence

Both Equally

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