dgirl1986
Big Queer Chesticles!
Whoa that is extreme. Though since I learned of how the protestant denomination came to be I cannot say I am shocked.
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The big Bad Catholic Church
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
Whoa that is extreme. Though since I learned of how the protestant denomination came to be I cannot say I am shocked.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Many do. But the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures took the accounts as literal. If we trust them, particularly Jesus (who is taught to have had a pre-human existence), than it stands to reason that these things really did happen.
"In reply he said: 'Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female and said: 'For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh.?" - Matthew 19:4,5
"By faith Abel offered God a sacrifice of greater worth than that of Cain, and received the witness that he was righteous, for God approved (or "bore witness by acknowledging.") his gifts, and although he died, he still speaks through his faith." - Hebrews 11:4
"Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come." - Romans 5:14
"Yes, the seventh one in line from Adam, E'noch, also prophesied about them when he said:..." - Jude 14
"Then the Jews said to him: 'You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them: 'Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.'" - John 8:57,58
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I don't see what this has to do with facts of history being on my side, or with anything other than a mythic story that may or may not have happened the way it was told -- or happened at all, for that matter.The Jews that put Jesus to death were the Pharisees of that day.
They put great store in the fact that they were God's people and had the temple and were occupying the seat of Moses.....but being sons of Abraham did not stop them from committing the greatest travesty of justice there could ever be....the murder of the son of God. They trumped up the charges against Jesus and howled for his execution even when the governing authority of Rome found that he had committed no offense worthy of death.
You mean those Jews?
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
And what side would that be exactly?
And what history?I am reading the descriptor under your avatar...so yep.
Got it.....
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Did they?
There's no reason to think that this couldn't be citing a known metaphoric example.
Same...
Same...
A reply to a tradition, not necessarily to a "real" circumstance.
Same...
The ancients played a lot more in Tradition than we do. There's no reason here to think that Jesus thought of these examples as "factual," in the same way that we do.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The side of factual history.
Factual history.
Glad you find the progressive POV so credible and reasonable!
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Factual history? And what factual history are we talking about?
The Pharisees thought that they were teaching factual history when they offered their lineage, their antiquity, their temple and their teachings as proof that they were God's people, and that Jesus was a false Messiah.
If people had opted for the "factual history" instead of the unpopular minority group who were showing them up for the hypocrites they were, then where would Christianity be?
JW's are progressive too. I always find their teachings to be credible and reasonable.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The factual history about the early church.
Ask any Jew. They'll tell you that the Pharisees were correct. In fact, they are correct. Jesus did not fulfill the criteria for the Jewish Messiah. He was something wholly different.
It would look like something completely different.
Rubbish.
Yes symbolic. Not literal.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
How early are we talking here? Are we talking first century or later when Catholicism came into existence?
So you agree with the Jews that Jesus was not the Messiah?
Who was he then?
Perhaps like Judaism today?
Not to me.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Well, the thread is about the Catholic church, yes?
I think that Jesus can be seen in any number of ways, because we're largely dealing with myth here -- not ontology.
I think the Jews have a valid point that Jesus did not fit the bill for the Messiah. And I think there's truth to that. but I also think there's truth to the concept that Jesus is the Messiah, and that the difference between what was expected and what actually happened was deliberate. It depends on whole POV one embraces.
I really don't know.
Of course not. But the basic identifying characteristics of progressive Xy don't fit with those of the JWs, IMO. It's OK to not be progressive.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
So, are you saying that the history of the inquisition is invalid? Are you telling me that the history that records the activities of the Catholic torture chambers for forced confessions are fictitious?
[URL]http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican29.htm[/url]
These never happened?
So, let me just understand your position....are you Catholic denying that Jesus was a real person? Or that the real person was not who he said he was? Are you suggesting that he was not sent by God to offer his life in exchange for Adam's sin? Help me out here....
Seeing as how the Jewish Messiah was expected to be a political liberator, any wonder the Jews did not see him as the spiritual liberator he proved to be. They were expecting their Messiah to champion their release from under Roman domination and establish his kingdom and elevate them over their oppressors.....what a let-down for them!
Jesus was nothing like what they anticipated. He fulfilled all the prophesies...just not in the way that the Jews interpreted them. Of course they are going to make excuses for why their Messiah has never shown up.
What would God's worship look like if Jesus never came? Did the Jews prove faithful to their God? At times they did...and he blessed them at those times, but more often than not, they drifted off into false worship and adopted the traditions of men instead of the word of God. What was Jesus' main gripe about the Pharisees? Wasn't it their hypocrisy? Wasn't it promoting their man-made traditions over God's word?
Since revelation of truth has always been progressive, (Prov 4:18) what makes you think getting stuck in ancient dogma adopted from paganism centuries ago by an apostate church, is a good place to be?
Christian is as Christian does IMO.....what is Catholicism to the world but empty idolatrous ritual and meaningless repetition? Performance alone has never been a biggie to God. It's what motivates our thinking and actions that is more important to Him than the performance of insincere ritual.
If something is shown to be in error, we have two choices....either walk away and leave it or justify it and stick to it. What do you think the Catholic Church has done?
Their elevation of Mary for example, is entirely unscriptural but teaching that men can override the word of God and even supersede it...what do you think the outcome is for those of the Catholic faith? The traditions of men triumph over the teachings of the Bible.
So there she is...still the "Queen of Heaven" when the Bible never calls her that and never attributes anything special to Mary except her being chosen as the earthly mother of Jesus.
Since Jesus was not officially made "God" by the Church until hundreds of years after he died, this concept of Mary being the "Mother of God" did not exist either. Don't you find that a little strange?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No. These aren't the accusations you made in post #18 to which I responded that history is on my side. See again the baseless apologetic you posted:
"And that seems to be the main problem with a church that believes that it can give absolution to sinners. How can sinners forgive other sinners? Those who were willful sinners in the first century congregations were expelled, not ignored or tolerated. (1 Cor 5:13-19) The shepherds were instructed to judge wrongdoers "inside" the congregation, whilst God judges those "outside". The nation of Israel went astray because their shepherds were negligent....history repeats.
In times past, the Catholic Church went overboard with the judgment and the punishment, but then, as it always happens, the pendulum swings too far the other way and now there is no punishment at all to speak of.
There is balance in keeping the word of God. Catholicism and the rest of Christendom, never found it.
The Catholic Church is the mother of her many daughters. All hold to the same core of false beliefs, formulated by her centuries after Jesus died...all taken along when the daughters left home.
Christendom is the sum of her children...divided, disobedient to the Christ and completely disjointed.
Satan did to Christianity exactly what he did to Judaism. (Matt 13:24-30) He influenced men to apostatize and teach what God did not have written in his word.
The "traditions of men" have again replaced the word of God. (Mark 7:6-8)
"Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say thingsand do not do them." (Matt 23:1-3)
The same holds true today. The Catholic Church, like a lot of others, gives lips service to Christ but does not live up to her discipleship. She says a lot but does very little in obedience to the commands of the Christ...instead, they follow the commands and traditions of men."
None of these accusations of the inauthenticity of the church are historically tenable.
Fact is, the prophecies did call for a political liberator. Jesus simply wasn't that.Seeing as how the Jewish Messiah was expected to be a political liberator, any wonder the Jews did not see him as the spiritual liberator he proved to be. They were expecting their Messiah to champion their release from under Roman domination and establish his kingdom and elevate them over their oppressors.....what a let-down for them!
Jesus was nothing like what they anticipated. He fulfilled all the prophesies...just not in the way that the Jews interpreted them. Of course they are going to make excuses for why their Messiah has never shown up.
Have you ever been to Synagogue? Very, very similar to liturgical, Christian worship.
As well as anyone else has. Including the JWs.
JWs are just as guilty of this as anyone else. Authenticity does not depend upon biblical fidelity -- and never has. The fact that the JWs try to make it about that only shows that this "man made tradition" of biblical inerrancy and fidelity and a sola scriptura stance is more prevalent among JWs than among RCs.
I don't know what you mean by dogma "adopted from paganism" or "apostate church." Neither of these is the case in Roman Catholicism. And you're saying so don't make it so. Again, I've got history on my side. All you've got is fabricated, apologetic spin.
Well, to many, it's the mother church. To many, it's a manifestation of Christ's justice and compassion. The ritual is anything but empty, and the repetition is as meaningless as the insistent beating of the heart.
Again, is empty, baseless critique the best you have to offer by way of argument?
It's not about performance, and if you think it is, you patently don't understand it.
The ritual is anything but "insincere." The Church is all about the heart. Again with the baseless critique. Got a bone to pick, or just acting mean?
The RCC has not been shown to be in error.
Again with the man-made sola scriptura argument. The matter of doctrine has never been "all about" the bible.
I find it stranger that you seem to feel that "getting stuck in ancient dogma" isn't a "good place to be," but you dismiss ongoing revelation. Interesting choice of hypocrisy on your part.
None of your last diatribe has anything whatsoever to do with progressive Christianity. I don't think you know what "progressive" means, yet you claim to be progressive? Another interesting bit of hypocrisy.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Churches, in the past ran more of the things we associate with secular departments now. In this regard, and of course the not so lily white track record of the catholic church, make those statements more understandable. It is also good to remember, that the Catholic church traditionally has held extremist views in terms of theology.
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JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
OK...Where does it say that absolution can be granted by any human priest? Only Jesus has that authority. Sinners cannot forgive other sinners.
Where is it stated that Christianity ever had an earthly priesthood presiding in man made temples?
Those who were anointed for rulership in heaven were going to be "priests and kings" in the future. Not in this life. (Rev 20:6)
Where is there any scriptural recommendation to tolerate wrongdoers in the congregation? Yet the church is full of them. If the church began to discipline willful sinners....who would be left?
Where does it say that forced confessions with violence are legitimate forms of conversion?
If the confession that Jesus is Lord is not made with all the heart, followed by full immersion baptism, it is invalid. So this naturally precludes the baptizing of infants.
Who can deny that Roman Catholicism is the mother of many daughters who all hold to the same core teachings of Roman paganism? You will not find a trinity, the teaching of an immortal soul, nor a hell of eternal torment in the Bible. You will find them all in ancient Babylon and in many other forms of false religion.
The Bible doesn't say that Jesus was put to death on a cross either. Even that religious symbol is Babylonian. You don't seem to realize how far removed Christendom's teachings are from the Bible.
Why do you doubt that satan has corrupted the church, when Jesus and his apostles clearly said it was going to happen?
Again the traditions of the church have replaced the word of God. Catholicism plainly admits it. Just like the Pharisees all over again.
Jesus taught us to 'love our enemies' and to 'pray for our persecutors'. Paul taught that we must not 'return evil for evil to anyone' and to 'keep conquering the evil with the good'. Do any of the churches do that?
Obedience to the teachings of the Christ take a backseat to the demands of men when the Church has to choose.
Does the Catholic Church promote love in times of war or do they back their worldly friends by supporting their governments and placating the consciences of those who might find Christianity and bloodshed at odds with each other? Nationalism and Christianity are incompatible. They are actually rival religious systems that vie for a person's loyalty. Who wins in the heart of Catholic people? How many Catholic people were in the Nazi death camps for refusing to heil Hitler?
When we are told by the apostle Paul not to mix true worship with false worship (2 Cor 6:14-18)...did Catholicism obey that directive? A separation was demanded, but the church didn't obey.
They promote Christmas and Easter as Christian celebrations when they were never Christian to begin with.
The doctrines associated with Mary and the nature of God are not Biblical either so being able to override scripture with the teachings of men has been a good way to introduce much falsehood under the guise of Christian teaching.
Can you really deny any of that?
The "weeds" are alive and well and flourishing in the world, but the reapers are coming.
Babylon the great is about to be dealt her death blow....she will never be seen again. (Rev 18:4, 5)
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
I hate having to get so blunt. But sometimes it is that or be a doormat.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
When it was necessary, Jesus didn't mince words either.
We are either Christians in our thinking and behavior or we are not.
If we claim to be followers of Christ then truth has to be put first.
If Jesus said that "many" would claim him as their Lord on judgment day, but that he had never identified them as his disciples, we have to take a long hard look at what we accept as truth and make adjustments in our thinking when we see a need.
How can people make an informed choice about anything without relevant information. We should check out everything to "make sure of all things and hold fast to what is fine".
We are either Christians in our thinking and behavior or we are not.
If we claim to be followers of Christ then truth has to be put first.
If Jesus said that "many" would claim him as their Lord on judgment day, but that he had never identified them as his disciples, we have to take a long hard look at what we accept as truth and make adjustments in our thinking when we see a need.
How can people make an informed choice about anything without relevant information. We should check out everything to "make sure of all things and hold fast to what is fine".
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Then why did Jesus and his apostles quote so much scripture and why did Jesus answer the devil with "it is written" with every temptation he offered?
Heb 4:12..."For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and their marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart."
The word of God is what is provided and that is what we build our faith on.
Not the traditions of men that deviate from what is written.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
See John 20:21-23.
Why does it have to be "stated?" In the earliest days, lots of stuff was oral tradition. Remember, sola scriptura is a man-made dogma.
Most people (including yourself) are "willful sinners." So, what's your point? That we should kick all the sinners out of the hospital Jesus has provided for them? Where's the precious scriptural injunction against the sick being in the hospital?
That's a matter of interpretation. I can show just as plainly that infant baptism is as scripturally-valid by sprinkling as is adult immersion. Nothing more than another example of cheap apologetic that has no basis in reality.
I can deny that -- and I do deny that.
You won't find any provision for the JWs in the bible, either. So what? Again: more of your "man-made sola scriptura nonsense.
Balderdash. You don't seem to realize how far removed from reason your "arguments" are.
If it's happened to Catholicism, it's happened to the JWs too. 3 fingers pointing right back at you.
Constantly.
Unfounded nonsense.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Then why did Jesus refute things by saying, "It is written... but I tell you..."?
There was no "written word" in the church for a long, long time. Stop idolizing a human document that wasn't even conceived by the original apostles.