Desert Snake
Veteran Member
The OP.
-
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Would you lie for your religion?
- Thread starter Parsimony
- Start date
The OP.
Granted, but not common. I've never heard many atheists declare a spiritual world exists. I'd like to hear what they think though.
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InChrist
Free4ever
I don't want anybody to buy a new car/vehicle...I just want them to know the speed, comfort, reliability of a 2015 ________ .
First, it is not a lie that a new car may be superior in speed, comfort, and reliability and secondly no one must buy Jesus...
...Freely you have received, freely give. Matthew 10:18
Sees
Dragonslayer
I'm just giving you a playful hard-time for using the infamous "I don't want to sell people on a religion...just share how wonderful, saving, etc. a relationship with Jesus is."
It's a frequently used promotional/marketing tactic taught in business degree curriculum and apologetics, in various forms.
InChrist
Free4ever
Sapiens
Polymathematician
I thought it would benefit both threads if they were combined:
The following was written by Ken Clark for MormonThink. Ken worked full time for the LDS Church Education System (CES) for 27 years. He also served as a bishop; a calling he enjoyed as much as full time instructor and Coordinator for the Church Education System. He loved (and still loves) the students and the ward members. His story can be found here.
This article is also available as a nicely formatted PDF file - provided by jiminycricket of RfM.
Ken gave an excellent presentation on Lying for the Lord at the 2008 ExMormon Foundation Conference in Salt Lake City.
Lying for the Lord on You Tube.
Preface
I began this list when I was a full time employee of the LDS Church Education System (CES). I worked as a Seminary Principal/teacher, Institute teacher/Director, and Stake CES Coordinator from 1975-2002. My last assignment was brief. I signed a Letter of Agreement with CES to serve as the Director of the Pullman, Washington LDS Institute of Religion adjacent to Washington State University in July 2002. I resigned from CES a month later. I carry fond memories of the students, ward leaders and others I grew to respect in the LDS Church. I started this list in an effort to defend the church from its detractors.
As an informal defender, I discovered that those accusing the church leaders of being dishonest sometimes had the facts on their side (when I took the time to check). I guessed there may have been occasional isolated examples of premeditated deception but it was not a pattern or standard practice.
My belief was that those who accused church leaders with deception were deceivers themselves. But as I read more church history my list leaders' prevarications grew, and at some point it occurred to me that Joseph Smith established a pattern of institutionalized deception.
Evidence presented in this list establishes that when the church or its leaders needed protection, it was, and is, okay to fib, deceive, distort, inflate, minimize, exaggerate, prevaricate or lie. You will read quotations by church leaders who admitted that deception is a useful tool to protect the church and its leaders "when they are in a tight spot," or "to beat the devil at his own game." They admit engaging in moral gymnastics; that God approves of deception ? if it's done to protect the "Lord's Church" or "the brethren."
D. Michael Quinn called the use of deception by LDS church leaders, "theocratic ethics." (The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, p. 112) Dan Vogel in his excellent work, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, described Smith as a pious deceiver. Smith used deception if in his mind; it resulted in a good outcome. Smith believed he knew when God approved of lying. For example, Smith wrote that God commanded the prophet Abraham to lie to protect himself and his wife Sarah from harm (Abraham 2:23-25).
Smith believed God also approved of murder if it was for a good cause. He wrote in the Book of Mormon that Nephi was inspired by God (1 Nephi 4:6) to deceive and murder his uncle to obtain an Israelite history. In Missouri, Smith and his counselor Sidney Rigdon, threatened to kill Mormons who disagreed with Smith's commands (Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, Chapter 3, "Theocratic Beginnings," pp. 79-103).
Deception came naturally to Smith. Before assuming his role as prophet, he operated confidence schemes. He guaranteed clients that he could see underground treasure using a magic stone in the bottom of his hat. Gullible "clients" paid him to locate treasures using this vision-in-the-hat method. (He never found anything.) Smith's arrest, trial and conviction in Bainbridge, NY for fraud in 1826 documented his activity. He was found guilty of glass looking. The modern term for Smith would be a con artist. (Dan Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, pp. 82-86).
Excellent historical works record Smith's deception and the deception of other LDS leaders. A list of authors and their work, who are nevertheless charitable to Smith are:
Originally Posted by Mormon Think
The following was written by Ken Clark for MormonThink. Ken worked full time for the LDS Church Education System (CES) for 27 years. He also served as a bishop; a calling he enjoyed as much as full time instructor and Coordinator for the Church Education System. He loved (and still loves) the students and the ward members. His story can be found here.
This article is also available as a nicely formatted PDF file - provided by jiminycricket of RfM.
Ken gave an excellent presentation on Lying for the Lord at the 2008 ExMormon Foundation Conference in Salt Lake City.
Lying for the Lord on You Tube.
Preface
I began this list when I was a full time employee of the LDS Church Education System (CES). I worked as a Seminary Principal/teacher, Institute teacher/Director, and Stake CES Coordinator from 1975-2002. My last assignment was brief. I signed a Letter of Agreement with CES to serve as the Director of the Pullman, Washington LDS Institute of Religion adjacent to Washington State University in July 2002. I resigned from CES a month later. I carry fond memories of the students, ward leaders and others I grew to respect in the LDS Church. I started this list in an effort to defend the church from its detractors.
As an informal defender, I discovered that those accusing the church leaders of being dishonest sometimes had the facts on their side (when I took the time to check). I guessed there may have been occasional isolated examples of premeditated deception but it was not a pattern or standard practice.
My belief was that those who accused church leaders with deception were deceivers themselves. But as I read more church history my list leaders' prevarications grew, and at some point it occurred to me that Joseph Smith established a pattern of institutionalized deception.
Evidence presented in this list establishes that when the church or its leaders needed protection, it was, and is, okay to fib, deceive, distort, inflate, minimize, exaggerate, prevaricate or lie. You will read quotations by church leaders who admitted that deception is a useful tool to protect the church and its leaders "when they are in a tight spot," or "to beat the devil at his own game." They admit engaging in moral gymnastics; that God approves of deception ? if it's done to protect the "Lord's Church" or "the brethren."
D. Michael Quinn called the use of deception by LDS church leaders, "theocratic ethics." (The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, p. 112) Dan Vogel in his excellent work, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, described Smith as a pious deceiver. Smith used deception if in his mind; it resulted in a good outcome. Smith believed he knew when God approved of lying. For example, Smith wrote that God commanded the prophet Abraham to lie to protect himself and his wife Sarah from harm (Abraham 2:23-25).
Smith believed God also approved of murder if it was for a good cause. He wrote in the Book of Mormon that Nephi was inspired by God (1 Nephi 4:6) to deceive and murder his uncle to obtain an Israelite history. In Missouri, Smith and his counselor Sidney Rigdon, threatened to kill Mormons who disagreed with Smith's commands (Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, Chapter 3, "Theocratic Beginnings," pp. 79-103).
Deception came naturally to Smith. Before assuming his role as prophet, he operated confidence schemes. He guaranteed clients that he could see underground treasure using a magic stone in the bottom of his hat. Gullible "clients" paid him to locate treasures using this vision-in-the-hat method. (He never found anything.) Smith's arrest, trial and conviction in Bainbridge, NY for fraud in 1826 documented his activity. He was found guilty of glass looking. The modern term for Smith would be a con artist. (Dan Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, pp. 82-86).
Excellent historical works record Smith's deception and the deception of other LDS leaders. A list of authors and their work, who are nevertheless charitable to Smith are:
- Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, Prophet's Wife, "Elect Lady," Polygamy's Foe.
- Dan Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 2004.
- Richard Van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy: A History, Second Edition, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1989.
- D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1994.
- D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1997.
- Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith, Vintage Books, NY, 1995.
- B. Carmon Hardy, Solemn Covenant: The Mormon Polygamous Passage, University of Illinois Press, 1992. (The essay on Lying for the Lord in Hardy's appendix is masterful and yet compassionate.)
- Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows, University of Oklahoma Press, Norman, OK 2002, offers insight into the minds of other church leaders who used deception effectively too.
- An excellent online list is the online book by Jerald and Sandra Tanner, The Changing World of Mormonism at http://www.utlm.org/navonlinebooks.htm; and
- Richard Packham's excellent piece entitled, "Mormon Lying." http://home.teleport.com/~packham/lying.htm
(continued)
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Sapiens
Polymathematician
(continued)
Sapiens, are you a former member of the LDS church? I cannot understand the depth that you go through to find anything you can against the LDS church. You went to another anti-Mormon website and quote all former LDS members. Do you always go to another church or persons enemies to find out what amounts to a bunch of garbage?
The only thing I would like to respond to is Abraham.
Genesis 12:10–20.
Abraham could validly state that Sarah was his sister. In the Bible the Hebrew words brother and sister are often used for other blood relatives. (See Genesis 14:14, in which Lot, Abraham’s nephew, is called “his brother.”
I guess it is indeed rare for people to fully believe in a spiritual world without also accepting the reality of some conception of deity.
That is IMO simply because "deity" is such a vague and overused concept.
And then there are the moral aspects of the OP, which to me at least seem central.
Can you give me an example? The OP seems quite clear, blunt even, to me. It asks pretty directly whether people find lying "for the good of the faith" morally defensable.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I do perceive alternate realities that some might define as being spiritual, but it has never occurred to me to describe them as such. I wouldn't want to give folks who believe in "spiritual worlds" the feeling that their vision is accurate by describing them in that way. They're far different from anything I've ever read about, that is for sure. Let's leave it at that.
In regards to the OP:
Given that I do not follow a religion or feel a need for one in this life, obviously I'd have to say no. In larger terms though, if you asked if I would lie into order to support my descriptions of Non-Dual reality, I'd still say no, but I'd quickly point out that non-dual reality does not easily lend itself to verbal terms, so in many ways anything you say or attempt to explain about non-dual reality is a bit of a fib because our normal symbol library does not include suitable terms. In my view, using terms like "Absolute" or "Ultimate" reality are outright lies as there is no possible way to ascertain the veracity of the claims... even while within the non-dual environs.
I don't accept converts, students or followers. Folks can row their own damned boats.
My answer would be no. I am happy to say that the religion of Ymir has not had any apostates as a result of the previous statement.If it was simply for promotion, then no, that is never acceptable. If it is like a Jew in Nazi Germany lying to save their lives, that's another thing entirely and is understandable. Though many human animals love their gods with all their might, not too many are in a hurry to meet said gods.
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I don't look at Brahman as a deity exactly in my thinking. 'Deity' to me implies there's an ultimate duality.
But what, precisely, constitutes lying? That isn't so straightforward.
If a member of any religion doesn't mention the abuses of a tiny minority of their fellow members or leadership, is that lying? Because every group has them. If I fail to mention that there are a few creepers out there in Neopaganism who associate with the movement because they want to get in people's pants, am I lying "for the good of the religion?"
If a member of any religion doesn't point out the various drawbacks of being an adherent, is that lying? Because every group has those too. If I fail to mention that the Neopagan "community" lacks some of the significant benefits of organized religion like infrastructure, paid clergy, and support groups, am I lying "for the good of the religion?"
If a member of any religion focuses on painting a positive portrait so that others don't regard them with hatred and ire, is that lying too? Is public relations on the whole a form of deception and lying?
To be more specific, I'm focusing on "fabricating things that never happened" as opposed to "hiding things that did/do happen".
jonathan180iq
Well-Known Member
Gareth would lie for anything... :run:
No religion here because if you are part of a religion you'd likely feel a need to defend it's beliefs.
However I decided a while back to not lie about an experience and do my best not to embellish it. I think it'd be a temptation to embellish an experience according to one's religious beliefs. People often convince themselves of seeing what they already believe.
How would I know if they "hoaxed" a miracle? Why would they tell me? A person tells me something, the truth of it is between them and their consciousness. What others consider acceptable morals is often a surprise to me so I don't doubt someone I know would consider this an acceptable action.
Sure, people like the security of numbers. The more people belief, the more authority your belief has. You hear a lot of people saying the same thing in agreement, it provides a "certainty".
No one's morals are universal.