All Religions

lilithu · Mar 1, 2006

shytot said:
as for my fears, I have none, I am going into the next world completely on my own, by myself, unloved by any divinity, sure in the knowledge that I will have absolutely no trouble getting there, I will know the way without any help from anything or anyone, no guides, no one holding my hand,
Lilithu, ask yourself, could you do that???

What "next world" are you going to??

No, I could not do that. I fully admit that I can't do it on my own. I need my friends, I need society, I need nature, I need the wisdom of those who came before me, I need God...the list of my needs is endless. And I need them in this life. And whether you are atheist or theist, anyone who thinks that he doesn't need "any help from anything or anyone" is delusional.

d. · Mar 1, 2006

JamesThePersian said:
I'll just pipe up and point out that I am also an adult convert to my religion. Having been on this site for a while now it seems to me like an awful lot (probably the majority) of the people here were not born into their current faith.

James

here's another one...

Popeyesays · Mar 1, 2006

My faith believes there is a THIS earth reason for religion.
"And among the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh is that although material civilization is one of the means for the progress of the world of mankind, yet until it becomes combined with Divine civilization, the desired result, which is the felicity of mankind, will not be attained. Consider! These battleships that reduce a city to ruins within the space of an hour are the result of material civilization; likewise the Krupp guns, the Mauser rifles, dynamite, submarines, torpedo boats, armed aircraft and bombing aeroplanes -- all these weapons of war are the malignant fruits of material civilization. Had material civilization been combined with Divine civilization, these fiery weapons would never have been invented. Nay, rather, human energy would have been wholly devoted to useful inventions and would have been concentrated on praiseworthy discoveries. Material civilization is like a lamp-glass. Divine civilization is the lamp itself and the glass without the light is dark. Material civilization is like the body. No matter how infinitely graceful, elegant and beautiful it may be, it is dead. Divine civilization is like the spirit, and the body gets its life from 290 the spirit, otherwise it becomes a corpse. It has thus been made evident that the world of mankind is in need of the breaths of the Holy Spirit. Without the spirit the world of mankind is lifeless, and without this light the world of mankind is in utter darkness. For the world of nature is an animal world. Until man is born again from the world of nature, that is to say, becomes detached from the world of nature, he is essentially an animal, and it is the teachings of God which converts this animal into a human soul."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 289)

Regards,
Scott

Master Vigil · Mar 1, 2006

shytot said:
I am sorry if I 'lumped' them all together, but my meaning was,
they all talk about what happens somewhere else, and how it will be one day,
and the 'after life', and give rules on how you should live this life.

No They all do not. Taoism for example has no issue on the "after life" because it is seen as absolutely unimportant. And there are no "rules" to follow on living this life, no more than "you can't fly because gravity pulls you to the ground".

And why should I do some research? it is all meaningless to me anyway,
it is a bit like saying, 'don't knock stupidity until you have tried it,'
the whole concept of religion gives me the creeps,

It's only meaningless to you because you have only studied the ones you hate, and don't even consider the ones that actually agree with you. If you studied them, you may have a different opinion. And to call religion stupidity is a pretty bold fallacy. And again, the concept of religion that gives you the creaps is NOT the only concept out there. I admit, the concept you talk about gives me the creaps as well. That is why I am not a Christian anymore. But as a Taoist, that concept no longer exists, and is therefore irrelevant in my creapiness.

(So why am I bothering with this forum? fascination, pure fascination.)

Doesn't sound like fascination from this end.

it takes me to a time when people sat around a fire at night, and wondered what
ghosts and creatures were out there in the darkness, and I have little doubt there
were a few people who could see the fear in the others, and could use that to their
own advantage, that could be when the 'talking to God' came about, and the more
power it gave them over the others, the more rules they came up with.
Lilithu is right in one thing though 'I know nothing of her God or her fears and needs.'
but she will insist on quoting other peoples words and writings, she is obviously under some kind of spell, she defends herself by attacking, I don't suppose much of herself is left now though, her thoughts will belong to someone else,
as for my fears, I have none, I am going into the next world completely on my own,
by myself, unloved by any divinity, sure in the knowledge that I will have absolutely no trouble getting there, I will know the way without any help from anything or anyone, no guides, no one holding my hand,
Lilithu, ask yourself, could you do that???

I can not speak for Lilithu, but for myself, that is exactly the reason I chose Taoism. Because there is no one to follow, worship, be loved by, no words to worship or revere, no commandments, no sacraments, etc... Just life, death, and whatever.

But I'm sure you think you know all about Taoism, and are gonna reply with something about it that is false. But I beg, please don't and actually do some research on Taoism, and Buddhism (particularly zen buddhism). Thanks.

BruceDLimber · Mar 1, 2006

Greetings!

shytot said:
Everyone is born an Atheist.

But to take a far less cynical view of this, as it says in the Baha'i scriptures:

"Man is the supreme talisman. Lack of a proper education hath, however, deprived him of that which he doth inherently possess.... The Great Being saith: Regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value. Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to benefit therefrom."

Peace,

Bruce

shytot · Mar 1, 2006

First off, Please replace 'next world' with the word 'DEATH', I find that word a little more permanent, don't you?

Lilithu, you said 'I need the wisdom of those who came before me'. I agree, you do,
but they only have the wisdom of the here and now, not one person who
has ever lived has had the wisdom of the future, that is just not possible,
in that, you must be guided by yourself, that is why religion is a personal thing,
it is nothing to do with other people, your the one it concerns, no one else,
the fellowship of a congregation is a wonderful thing,
but when the wonderful words have been spoken, and the singing has ended,
you are on your own.

I need people around me of coarse, as it is writ, no man is an island, but as I do
not believe in a 'next life' I will have no need of anyone, after all, I wont be there.

So, let's get this straight, the only reason they are religious, is because they have
a NEED to be religious, so logically speaking, if they had no NEED, they would not
be religious, so someone must have put that NEED there, a fear perhaps, or feeling
of inadequacy, convinced them they can not get through without help from someone or something,
or am I going to be accused of twisting words?

I must admit, Taoism really does sound like the best religion to have, absolutely nothing in it, that's the closest anyone will come to Atheism, no God, no book, no rules, no after life, but it has a name that sounds like a religion, I like it.

Master Vigil · Mar 1, 2006

shytot said:
I must admit, Taoism really does sound like the best religion to have, absolutely nothing in it, that's the closest anyone will come to Atheism, no God, no book, no rules, no after life, but it has a name that sounds like a religion, I like it.

I must warn you, when you study up on taoism, you will find that there are two schools of Taoism... Philosophical and religious. The religious school may seem to be the concept in which you hate, but even so... translating Taoist thought into english usually means the translator used "western" terms. Thus, the translation actually puts forth an entirely different meaning than that of the eastern understanding. Does that make sense? For instance... When a translation says "heaven", many would see that and think of the western concept. But in the chinese culture, it is just seen as the sky, stars, etc... Nothing too supernatural about it.

They will also talk about spirits, demons, immortals, etc... not all Taoists believe in these things. And the Taoism put forth by Lao Tzu has no interest in them either. I just don't want you to study, and then get a bad impression of it because of the misunderstandings. Know what I mean?

may · Mar 2, 2006

shytot said:
as for my fears, I have none, I am going into the next world completely on my own,
by myself, unloved by any divinity, sure in the knowledge that I will have absolutely no trouble getting there, I will know the way without any help from anything or anyone, no guides, no one holding my hand,

Hi, hope you dont mind me asking you a question, are the above thoughts your personal beliefs, if so , why do you think that you will be going somewhere after death , or have i missed the point , as far as i am aware ,the belief that humans possess an immortal soul and it floats off after death has been passed down through the centuries so you seem to have taken it on board. i found that interesting, how come you believe that? i am not being patronizing in any way , i just found it interesting how far this belief has affected human thinking............ but maybe you are not refering to your beliefs, so in that case i have missed the point and i am sorry for butting in

shytot · Mar 2, 2006

MAY, I am sorry but you have missed the point, I believe the exact opposite, I am going nowhere, when I say the 'next world', I meant 'Dead'.

lilithu · Mar 2, 2006

shytot said:
First off, Please replace 'next world' with the word 'DEATH', I find that word a little more permanent, don't you?

Dude, you were the one who wrote "next world." I just found that curious. I have no idea whether death is "permanent" or not and I don't care. Why do you?

shytot said:
Lilithu, you said 'I need the wisdom of those who came before me'. I agree, you do, but they only have the wisdom of the here and now, not one person who has ever lived has had the wisdom of the future, that is just not possible, in that, you must be guided by yourself, that is why religion is a personal thing, it is nothing to do with other people, your the one it concerns, no one else, the fellowship of a congregation is a wonderful thing, but when the wonderful words have been spoken, and the singing has ended, you are on your own.

I need people around me of coarse, as it is writ, no man is an island, but as I do not believe in a 'next life' I will have no need of anyone, after all, I wont be there.

So, let's get this straight, the only reason they are religious, is because they have a NEED to be religious, so logically speaking, if they had no NEED, they would not be religious, so someone must have put that NEED there, a fear perhaps, or feeling of inadequacy, convinced them they can not get through without help from someone or something, or am I going to be accused of twisting words?

You are confounding two separate issues. Whether or not there is an "afterlife" of some sort and whether or not we need others. With your limited knowledge of religion, you think that all religion is about the afterlife and how to get there and the need for help from some other source in order to have a good afterlife. What I (and others) have been trying to say, repeatedly, is that not all religion is about an afterlife. A great many don't talk about that at all, including my own. I quote passages to show what is important in my tradition, and it's very much about this life, and your only response is that since I'm quoting others it means I'm not capable of independant thought. Yeah, I can see that a lot of thought went into your reponse. :sarcastic

Yes, religion is about NEED. One wouldn't be religious if one didn't recognize a need. And ultimately, it is deeply personal. But it's not necessarily about the need to avoid the permanence of death. Even for those who believe in heaven or a better rebirth, religion is about the NEED to live the best life that one can in this life. And the recognition that one can't do it alone. One NEEDS community, one NEEDS tradition, one NEEDS the wisdom of those who have come before, in order to LIVE in THIS LIFE. Spirituality is about constantly holding your actions up to your ideals to make sure that they match up, and if not, correcting. Religion is about practicing the spiritual within community and tradition.

If you don't have such needs, fine. But that doesn't justify ridiculing what you don't understand.

shytot said:
I must admit, Taoism really does sound like the best religion to have, absolutely nothing in it, that's the closest anyone will come to Atheism, no God, no book, no rules, no after life, but it has a name that sounds like a religion, I like it.

ACK!! What is so special about Taoism isn't that there is "nothing" in it. :banghead3 Taoism doesn't have a lot of exoteric content because first and foremost it recognizes that what is most important can't be contained in words, rules, or even concepts. So it avoids those things that would be misleading. But it is not about "nothing." (What is the point of being about nothing?) It is, again, about living one's life as best as one can, in harmony with the Tao.

shytot · Mar 2, 2006

(IF I SEEMED TO BE RIDICULING YOU, IT WAS NOT INTENTIONAL, I AM SORRY)
Forgive me also, because I thought religion was ONLY about the 'After life',
why else would anyone bother with religion,
You said 'religion is about the NEED to live the best life that one can in this life',
if it is about living your life now, you don't need to have a religion to do that!!
and surely you don't need to have a religion to be a good person?,
some of the nicest and most gentle people I know are Atheists,
so what is it all about, where does God come into all of this?
You say you need other people to help you through this life!!!
(Now I am ridiculing you) why not get yourself a good shrink,
I have heard you Americans love going to the psychiatrist...
seriously though, the way you talk, religion to you is nothing
more than communion with other people, perhaps that's what
it means to you, but to others I am sure it means things like,
God, prayer to God, the after life, sin, reading their bibles, (BOOKS)
fear of death, and a host of other things to do with religion,
Then comes the getting through this life part.

I am confused, to say the least.

As for the Taoism part,
It was my attempt at being ironic, obviously it did not work.

jewscout · Mar 2, 2006

if it is about living your life now, you don't need to have a religion to do that!!
and surely you don't need to have a religion to be a good person?,

yes but it can't hurt either...

so what is it all about, where does God come into all of this?

guidance for starters...

seriously though, the way you talk, religion to you is nothing
more than communion with other people, perhaps that's what
it means to you, but to others I am sure it means things like,
God, prayer to God, the after life, sin, reading their bibles, (BOOKS)
fear of death, and a host of other things to do with religion,
Then comes the getting through this life part.

I am confused, to say the least.

then perhaps that means you should spend more time studying and learning about other faiths instead of referring to it as "stupidity"

your own signature says it best and i believe that is what everyone has tried to convey throughout this thread.

michel · Mar 2, 2006

Well, as an English guy, I can tell you that I have been to a psychiatrist (but only for depression), and I do believe in a God.

That doesn't mean that I think I need to preach to others, nor does it mean that I think others who don't believe in Christianity are 'bad'. It suits me; that's about it. Believing in a God is just part of my life; it doesn't mean that I am scared of him (nor do I fear death); I just enjoy the feeling of believing in God.

Does that make me a nutter ?

Popeyesays · Mar 2, 2006

Shytot,

Maybe we can live a good life without religion, maybe we can't. Maybe WITH religion we can lead a good life, and maybe without it we cant.

This dichotomy shows that long before philosophy ever attempted to deal with the concepts of a "good life", religion pondered the same things.

This goes back way before any Greek philosopher gave a thought to ethical living:
"5. And in this Zaothra with this Baresman I desire to approach the man who recites the ritual
rites with my praise, who is maintaining thus the thought well thought, and the word well
spoken, and the deed well done, and Piety the bountiful, even him who maintains the Mathra
of the Saoshyant, by whose actions the settlements are advanced in the righteous order."
(The Zend-Avesta, Avesta - Visperad)

Regards,
Scott

lilithu · Mar 2, 2006

shytot said:
Forgive me also, because I thought religion was ONLY about the 'After life', why else would anyone bother with religion,

That's what we've been trying to say. Taoism has no afterlife (philosophical Taoism doesn't anyway). Many forms of Judaism has no afterlife, tho some do. And while Buddhism and Hinduism have concepts of rebirth and reincarnation, the ultimate goal in both is to avoid those entirely.

shytot said:
You said 'religion is about the NEED to live the best life that one can in this life', if it is about living your life now, you don't need to have a religion to do that!!
and surely you don't need to have a religion to be a good person?,
some of the nicest and most gentle people I know are Atheists,
so what is it all about, where does God come into all of this?

As I said, spirituality is holding up ones actions to one's ideals and making sure they measure up, and if not, making corrections. Religion is about doing the spiritual within community and tradition.

No, of course one doesn't need religion or a concept of God to be a good person. By my definition, every person who reflects seriously on what it means to live a good life is spiritual, whether they call themselves atheist or theist. And again, if you think you're doing it all on your own, you're kidding yourself. There is no such thing as you on your own. Even if you plopped yourself down in the middle of a desert island and never talked to another soul, you would still be in the company of the people who made you who you are today.

I happen to prefer to do it within the context of religion - the tradition, the community, the shared purpose. As I said, if you don't need that, fine. But why the need to ridicule people who do? It does not speak well to your character.

shytot said:
You say you need other people to help you through this life!!!
(Now I am ridiculing you) why not get yourself a good shrink,
I have heard you Americans love going to the psychiatrist...

Now and throughout, you have never stopped ridiculing, either myself or religious people in general. Which makes your apology suspect. Look, if you can't understand what I mean by needing people, I give up trying to explain. Just run along, secure in the delusion that you are a self-contained universe.

shytot said:
seriously though, the way you talk, religion to you is nothing more than communion with other people, perhaps that's what
it means to you, but to others I am sure it means things like,
God, prayer to God, the after life, sin, reading their bibles, (BOOKS)
fear of death, and a host of other things to do with religion,
Then comes the getting through this life part.

No, it is not just about communion with people. It's about living the spiritual life in communion with people. Religion recognizes the social aspect of spirituality. And I don't just mean a bunch of people in a room socializing. Tradition is also social, it's the communication from one generation to another. That includes the bible and other scriptures.

And didn't I say early on that I need my God? I just dropped that from the conversation because it's too difficult to explain to you what I mean by God when it's already like pulling teeth just to get you to acknowledge that not all religions are the same.

And of course for some people religion is mainly about fear of death and such. What I've been saying over and over is that's not what it is for all people. Not even close. Go back and read what you wrote in your own posts.

"The first thing a religion tries to teach us is that we are NOT part of nature, that we are somehow far above all things to do with the earth and the cosmos, the world and everything in it was all finished by the time we arrived, ..." bladdy bladdy blah...

When I remark that you are overgeneralizing from the religious tradition with which you are familiar to all religion in general, you reply:

"Of coarse I 'rant against religion in general' it is all hogwash, think about what they are telling you, just stop and think for 5 minutes, everyone is afraid of what will happen when they die,..." bladdy bladdy bloo... (bold emphasis mine)

When I suggest that you actually listen to some religionists so that you can see that your generalizations don't hold up, you reply:

"So I should 'listen' to some 'Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, Pagans, Jews, Process Christians... ' why, they will only spout more of the same, all coming from different angles, all representing different countries, cultures, languages and ideas, but all basically saying the same, there is an all powerful being watching over us,..."bladdy bladdy blech... (bold emphasis mine)

That has been the basis of our argument (with some sidetracks), your contention that the beliefs of "religion" can be characterized as one monolithic entity when your characterization isn't even true for most religions. Not all religions teach us that we're above nature. Not even close. Not all religions focus on death and the afterlife. Not even close. Not all religions believe in an omnipotent being. Not even close!

"...And why should I do some research? it is all meaningless to me anyway,
it is a bit like saying, 'don't knock stupidity until you have tried it,'
the whole concept of religion gives me the creeps,..."

You can't be bothered to do the research? Fine. It's all meaningless to you? Seriously, that's fine. It gives you the creeps? Sounds like you're the one who's got fears, but anyway, fine.

"(So why am I bothering with this forum? fascination, pure fascination.)"

Dude, you're the one with issues. Why not get yourself a good shrink?

DTrent · Mar 2, 2006

I was raised to be Catholic, had a Jewish grandfather but made my own decision to serve the God of the Bible at 17, which is when I got baptized. Only after much research into other religions & the Bible & true & false Christianity did I come to this conclusion.

As some wize person on here said, "One must make an informed choice."
This, I did...

shytot · Mar 2, 2006

Well I asked for it and I certainly got it.

I must be exceedingly slow, because I am just unable to get it into my thick head,
I still do not UNDERSTAND....let me try and explain my problem,
I think I have said it before, there is a religion to fit everyone,
whatever your needs, there is at least one you will like,
why,why,why, are there so many religions? if all they do is pander to peoples
needs, fears, wants, desires, call them whatever, what good are they?
or are they like a kids dummy, ( I think you call them comforters)
something to stop you thinking to much about life and death,
Life to me is simple, you are born, you live your life, and you die,
you can have a good life, bad life, hungry life, lots of different lives,
happy, rich, poor, but at the end of it, you die, now it seems that is not
enough for some people, they insist on complicating things, they can not
accept it is that simple, (99.9% of people are just born, live, and die,
without even making a ripple on the pond,) for them, there has got to be
more to it than that, they think they are some how deserving of more than
that. you can hear people saying 'this can not be all there is.'
It is because I belive it is that simple, I don't believe in, Religion, Nationalism,
Racism, (and lots of other 'ism's' I cant think of now) they all just get in the
way of life, it is far to short a life anyway, I just want to conform to the rules
of the country I live in, avoid bigots, and not answer the door to the 'LDS',
have a few drinks, talk to friends about Religion, Nationalism, Racism, and Rugby.
I have traveled the world, and a beautiful world it is, all to be burnt up
by the sun one day, wether we are on it, or not, and the ant hill will be no more.
we will be forgotten, in fact there will be no one here to remember.

Ody · Mar 2, 2006

shytot said:
99% of people with a religion, believe in a religion that was chosen for them by someone else, and all of them can say,"I did not choose my name, my mother or father, or my religion".
Who said? "Give me a child until he is seven, and I will give you a (your religion here) for life".
If all the children in the world were not taught about religion, it would die in one generation.
All this may be true, but if you have been captured, you will not agree with one word of this.
PS. Everyone is born an Atheist.

I was raised a deist, and became a jew...

d. · Mar 2, 2006

shytot said:
I must be exceedingly slow,

i don't think that's the problem.

my guess is that it is the fact that you're seemingly not listening to what anybody else here has to say...just to your own endless rant.

which makes any further discussion pretty much pointless.

Popeyesays · Mar 2, 2006

shytot said:
Well I asked for it and I certainly got it.

I must be exceedingly slow, because I am just unable to get it into my thick head,
I still do not UNDERSTAND....let me try and explain my problem,
I think I have said it before, there is a religion to fit everyone,
whatever your needs, there is at least one you will like,
why,why,why, are there so many religions? <SNIP for focus>.

Here's where perception comes in. You see many different religions. I see only one - Christians are believers in the religion of God. Muslims are believers in the religion of God. So are Hindus, Jews, Parsis, Sikhs, Baha`i's, Noachides, Taoists, Buddhists, even animists and polytheists though they don't realize it.

Regards,
Scott

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