How did we determine that God is the good one and Satan is the evil one?

Zanuku · Aug 30, 2013

(Supposing they exist)
Two supernatural beings with power beyond our comprehension both easily capable of fooling us and we need to determine which is the bad one.
When Adam & Eve were in the garden God told them that if they ate the fruit from the tree they would die, the snake supposedly being or under the control of Satan told them they wouldn't die and would simply gain knowledge.
They ate the fruit, gained knowledge and were banished instead of being killed, yes there are the rationalizations that it was a spiritual death but the point is to look at who told the truth in that scenario.
What if Christianity and Catholicism have been tricked and holy armies have been tricked into slaughtering, destroying and raping their ways across the land for centuries.
Not to mention that there were over 2 million listed killed in the Bible because god said they should be, not including the countless millions from the something-like 100 cities destroyed with the inhabitants massacred.
And Satan has killed a grand total of 10 people, only after God permitted him to.
So what if God is actually the sadist trickster and Satan is the docile good one? :sarcastic
Discuss.

Iti oj · Aug 30, 2013

Zanuku said:
(Supposing they exist)
Two supernatural beings with power beyond our comprehension both easily capable of fooling us and we need to determine which is the bad one.
When Adam & Eve were in the garden God told them that if they ate the fruit from the tree they would die, the snake supposedly being or under the control of Satan told them they wouldn't die and would simply gain knowledge.
They ate the fruit, gained knowledge and were banished instead of being killed, yes there are the rationalizations that it was a spiritual death but the point is to look at who told the truth in that scenario.
What if Christianity and Catholicism have been tricked and holy armies have been tricked into slaughtering, destroying and raping their ways across the land for centuries.
Not to mention that there were over 2 million listed killed in the Bible because god said they should be, not including the countless millions from the something-like 100 cities destroyed with the inhabitants massacred.
And Satan has killed a grand total of 10 people, only after God permitted him to.
So what if God is actually the sadist trickster and Satan is the docile good one? :sarcastic
Discuss.

But the biblle say god is good. How do we know we can trust the bible? It is the word of god of course we can trust it.

Zanuku · Aug 30, 2013

Iti oj said:
But the biblle say god is good. How do we know we can trust the bible? It is the word of god of course we can trust it.

E-bloody-zackly.
How do we know God isn't tricking people into wanting to go to heaven and keep them out of hell? "Hell" might be the eternal delight and heaven the soul-sucking demons keep.

Caladan · Aug 30, 2013

Let me ask you a question. When you do business, do you sign up your entire resources for one company for life based on their publicity campaign?
Of course not. There is competition, test of goods, reliability, etc.
What I'm trying to get at is that you don't need to declare to be a coke only person, or a Guinness only person, when there is also Pepsi, Hoegaarden, or hell why not even try French cider?
A smart person would play both sides to his best benefits, and according to his best self interests. If one side is trying to tell him that all he should ever use from now until he or she dies is their own baggage of products, and actually threaten to sue him if he refuses, well in the real world they'd be out of business very soon, tore to shreds by the media and by the costumers.

chinu · Aug 30, 2013

Zanuku said:
How did we determine that God is the good one and Satan is the evil one?

That which try to bond one's (Soul) in this world is Satan, and that which try to liberate one from this world to get one with himself, is God.

It doesn't make any difference to Bonding, if it sounds sweet (For example family-love). In any case bonding is bonding, and it is Evil thing, Whereas it doesn't make any difference to Liberation if it sounds hard, liberating is liberating, and it is Good in any case

Aquitaine · Aug 30, 2013

In comparison, Satan seems like a pretty cool guy. I'd have a beer with him.

Iti oj · Aug 30, 2013

chinu said:
That which try to bond one's (Soul) in this world is Satan, and that which try to liberate one from this world to get one with himself, is God.

It doesn't make any difference to Bonding, if it sounds sweet (For example family-love). In any case bonding is bonding, and it is Evil thing, Whereas it doesn't make any difference to Liberation if it sounds hard, liberating is liberating, and it is Good in any case

Both Satan and Lucifer can be/should be seen as liberating entities.

1137 · Aug 30, 2013

Actually we aren't told God is good, we are told He creates light and darkness, is vengeful, sends adversarial angels just to test our faith, destroys entire cities...

InChrist · Aug 30, 2013

Aquitaine said:
In comparison, Satan seems like a pretty cool guy. I'd have a beer with him.

Really? Others who have seen Satan face to face have quite a different perspective:

"One night, while in the Ascension Chamber, my spirit was roaming some of the farthest reaches of heavenly light that I had ever perceived. That night I had an experience that would change my life forever.

During this experience I was surrounded by a virtually overwhelming luminosity it was as if I was looking straight into the sun. Waves of bliss radiated through my spirit. I was totally captivated by the power.

Suddenly, another force stepped in. It took me by complete surprise. In the twinkling of an eye, it was like a supernatural hand had taken me behind the scenes of the experience that I was having. I was taken behind the outer covering of the dazzling luminosity and there saw something that left me literally shaking for a full week.
What I saw was the face of devouring darkness! Behind the glittering outer facade of beauty lay a massively powerful, wildly churning face of absolute hatred and unspeakable abominations the face of demons filled with the power of Satan.

For a moment that seemed like an eternity, I realized that I was in major league trouble, for this devouring force was now closing in on me.

In absolute, stark terror I felt powerless to stop what appeared to be inevitable doom. Horror filled me like a consuming flame."

excerpt from: Inside the New Age Nightmare by Randall Baer

http://the-new-way.org/testimonies/conv_newage_01_inside_the_new_age_nightmare.html

Jayhawker Soule · Aug 30, 2013

Zanuku said:
(Supposing they exist)
..., the snake supposedly being or under the control of Satan ...

Not in my scripture.

Zanuku said:
(Supposing they exist)
... told them they wouldn't die and would simply gain knowledge. They ate the fruit, gained knowledge and were banished instead of being killed, yes there are the rationalizations that it was a spiritual death but the point is to look at who told the truth in that scenario.

It depends entirely on how you translate the text. (But you seem to be much more interested in bible-bashing that text study.)

Raban · Aug 30, 2013

We decided what good and evil are (though to greatly varying degrees) then decided that we would worship this personified notion of good or this personified notion of evil.

McBell · Aug 30, 2013

InChrist said:
Really? Others who have seen Satan face to face have quite a different perspective:

"One night, while in the Ascension Chamber, my spirit was roaming some of the farthest reaches of heavenly light that I had ever perceived. That night I had an experience that would change my life forever.

During this experience I was surrounded by a virtually overwhelming luminosity it was as if I was looking straight into the sun. Waves of bliss radiated through my spirit. I was totally captivated by the power.

Suddenly, another force stepped in. It took me by complete surprise. In the twinkling of an eye, it was like a supernatural hand had taken me behind the scenes of the experience that I was having. I was taken behind the outer covering of the dazzling luminosity and there saw something that left me literally shaking for a full week.
What I saw was the face of devouring darkness! Behind the glittering outer facade of beauty lay a massively powerful, wildly churning face of absolute hatred and unspeakable abominations the face of demons filled with the power of Satan.

For a moment that seemed like an eternity, I realized that I was in major league trouble, for this devouring force was now closing in on me.

In absolute, stark terror I felt powerless to stop what appeared to be inevitable doom. Horror filled me like a consuming flame."

excerpt from: Inside the New Age Nightmare by Randall Baer

http://the-new-way.org/testimonies/conv_newage_01_inside_the_new_age_nightmare.html

All that shows is that the person narrating associates "bad" with Satan.
There is nothing in your quote that shows it was Satan that was seen other than the narrator making the claim.

JayJayDee · Aug 30, 2013

Zanuku said:
(Supposing they exist)
Two supernatural beings with power beyond our comprehension both easily capable of fooling us and we need to determine which is the bad one.
When Adam & Eve were in the garden God told them that if they ate the fruit from the tree they would die, the snake supposedly being or under the control of Satan told them they wouldn't die and would simply gain knowledge.
They ate the fruit, gained knowledge and were banished instead of being killed, yes there are the rationalizations that it was a spiritual death but the point is to look at who told the truth in that scenario.
What if Christianity and Catholicism have been tricked and holy armies have been tricked into slaughtering, destroying and raping their ways across the land for centuries.
Not to mention that there were over 2 million listed killed in the Bible because god said they should be, not including the countless millions from the something-like 100 cities destroyed with the inhabitants massacred.
And Satan has killed a grand total of 10 people, only after God permitted him to.
So what if God is actually the sadist trickster and Satan is the docile good one? :sarcastic
Discuss.

According to the Bible, by getting the man to eat of the forbidden fruit, satan is responsible for the death of the entire human race, so that makes him a 'manslayer extraordinaire'. There was no death mentioned for man apart from disobeying one simple command.

Since God can restore any life he took and the devil cannot, we are looking at a comparison here that does not add up.

If I may, I posted this on another thread but it seems to apply here too....

"If you go back to the beginning of man's existence, as the Bible explains it, there was one God who created all things. He is not a purposeless God, but stated his purpose in relation to humankind right at the start. They were to "be fruitful, become many and fill the earth and subdue it".

A rebel spirit (also a free willed being) derailed that original purpose by deceiving the first humans into disobedience, but instead of destroying that rebel and those whom he managed to deceive, (including other spirits) God used the entire scenario and its foreseeable consequences to his own advantage. All free willed beings would be given ample time to choose a course of action, on which their eternal future would be determined.

We humans have been given an excellent opportunity to choose whom we will worship and obey, because it is inherent in man to worship something or someone (even if that is ourselves).

By allowing the adversary a relatively free hand at turning man away from the true God and on into self-reliance and self-rule, we can observe by consulting history where each world rulership has taken us. The adversary is the orchestrator of all these rulerships and each one has impacted on God's people in some way, teaching us many lessons about God's permission of man's rulership under the influence of the god they chose.

Every single world power that God has permitted to exist, has come to nothing. Even if they still exist today, they are no longer major players on the world stage.

Power in the wrong hands is corrupting....in politics, commerce and religion. That is a fact that everyone recognises. Man has never exercised power over other humans without serious problems. It was never in God's purpose for this to be the case. 'Man dominates man to his injury' Solomon wrote....who can deny the truth of that statement?

Man was designed to be ruled by his Maker and at the end of all things, the Creator's rulership will be brought back. At that time, all on earth will have made their choice.
From God's perspective, there are only two categories of people alive today...sheep and goats. There are just two roads, one cramped and narrow one leading to everlasting life and a free and easy one leading to everlasting death.

Every single person living, is on one or the other of those two pathways. By their obedience to the Creator, (or lack of it,) they have chosen their way, with little influence from him. That way, the choice comes from one's own heart.

All will ultimately be caught in the act of being themselves.

The Creator has not left himself without witness, so those who choose an opposite course have no excuse not to know what he requires, or the consequence of their choice. He pleads with humankind to listen, but he forces no one to worship him.

Just my two cents.....

McBell · Aug 31, 2013

JayJayDee said:
According to the Bible, by getting the man to eat of the forbidden fruit, satan is responsible for the death of the entire human race, so that makes him a 'manslayer extraordinaire'. There was no death mentioned for man apart from disobeying one simple command.

Since God can restore any life he took and the devil cannot, we are looking at a comparison here that does not add up.

If I may, I posted this on another thread but it seems to apply here too....

"If you go back to the beginning of man's existence, as the Bible explains it, there was one God who created all things. He is not a purposeless God, but stated his purpose in relation to humankind right at the start. They were to "be fruitful, become many and fill the earth and subdue it".

A rebel spirit (also a free willed being) derailed that original purpose by deceiving the first humans into disobedience, but instead of destroying that rebel and those whom he managed to deceive, (including other spirits) God used the entire scenario and its foreseeable consequences to his own advantage. All free willed beings would be given ample time to choose a course of action, on which their eternal future would be determined.

We humans have been given an excellent opportunity to choose whom we will worship and obey, because it is inherent in man to worship something or someone (even if that is ourselves).

By allowing the adversary a relatively free hand at turning man away from the true God and on into self-reliance and self-rule, we can observe by consulting history where each world rulership has taken us. The adversary is the orchestrator of all these rulerships and each one has impacted on God's people in some way, teaching us many lessons about God's permission of man's rulership under the influence of the god they chose.

Every single world power that God has permitted to exist, has come to nothing. Even if they still exist today, they are no longer major players on the world stage.

Power in the wrong hands is corrupting....in politics, commerce and religion. That is a fact that everyone recognises. Man has never exercised power over other humans without serious problems. It was never in God's purpose for this to be the case. 'Man dominates man to his injury' Solomon wrote....who can deny the truth of that statement?

Man was designed to be ruled by his Maker and at the end of all things, the Creator's rulership will be brought back. At that time, all on earth will have made their choice.
From God's perspective, there are only two categories of people alive today...sheep and goats. There are just two roads, one cramped and narrow one leading to everlasting life and a free and easy one leading to everlasting death.

Every single person living, is on one or the other of those two pathways. By their obedience to the Creator, (or lack of it,) they have chosen their way, with little influence from him. That way, the choice comes from one's own heart.

All will ultimately be caught in the act of being themselves.

The Creator has not left himself without witness, so those who choose an opposite course have no excuse not to know what he requires, or the consequence of their choice. He pleads with humankind to listen, but he forces no one to worship him.

Just my two cents.....

Although that is nice little sermon, it does not address the OP.

InChrist · Aug 31, 2013

Mestemia said:
All that shows is that the person narrating associates "bad" with Satan.
There is nothing in your quote that shows it was Satan that was seen other than the narrator making the claim.

To a certain extent you have a point. Yet, I have read many accounts and talked to a number of people who have had encounters with satan and it was always bad. In each of the varying experiences of different individuals satan was bad, not only bad, but evil beyond imagination or normal human terms. These people's lives were so impacted that they made a complete turn around and committed their lives to Jesus as their Savior, something which they previously never would have considered doing. I have experienced this myself...before I ever fully understood or accepted the biblical concept of satan. After being saved by Christ I saw spiritual reality in a whole new light. I realized how much power and influence satan had over my life before Jesus saved me and that the Bible gives an accurate portrayal and important warnings concerning this evil being.

Zanuku · Aug 31, 2013

InChrist said:
To a certain extent you have a point. Yet, I have read many accounts and talked to a number of people who have had encounters with satan and it was always bad. In each of the varying experiences of different individuals satan was bad, not only bad, but evil beyond imagination or normal human terms. These people's lives were so impacted that they made a complete turn around and committed their lives to Jesus as their Savior, something which they previously never would have considered doing. I have experienced this myself...before I ever fully understood or accepted the biblical concept of satan. After being saved by Christ I saw spiritual reality in a whole new light. I realized how much power and influence satan had over my life before Jesus saved me and that the Bible gives an accurate portrayal and important warnings concerning this evil being.

This could easily be Gods attempt at manipulating us into adhering to his will y'know.
God could easily have been influencing their thoughts if they do in fact have those experiences. :cigar:

Gjallarhorn · Aug 31, 2013

InChrist said:
Really? Others who have seen Satan face to face have quite a different perspective:

"One night, while in the Ascension Chamber, my spirit was roaming some of the farthest reaches of heavenly light that I had ever perceived. That night I had an experience that would change my life forever.

During this experience I was surrounded by a virtually overwhelming luminosity it was as if I was looking straight into the sun. Waves of bliss radiated through my spirit. I was totally captivated by the power.

Suddenly, another force stepped in. It took me by complete surprise. In the twinkling of an eye, it was like a supernatural hand had taken me behind the scenes of the experience that I was having. I was taken behind the outer covering of the dazzling luminosity and there saw something that left me literally shaking for a full week.
What I saw was the face of devouring darkness! Behind the glittering outer facade of beauty lay a massively powerful, wildly churning face of absolute hatred and unspeakable abominations the face of demons filled with the power of Satan.

For a moment that seemed like an eternity, I realized that I was in major league trouble, for this devouring force was now closing in on me.

In absolute, stark terror I felt powerless to stop what appeared to be inevitable doom. Horror filled me like a consuming flame."

excerpt from: Inside the New Age Nightmare by Randall Baer

http://the-new-way.org/testimonies/conv_newage_01_inside_the_new_age_nightmare.html

Definitely sounds like my kind of guy.

dyanaprajna2011 · Aug 31, 2013

It's simply faith in an archaic book, and it's not even really that, it's faith in those who proclaim the book. A good read of the bible, and one get's the impression that satan is simply a scapegoat for a sadistic and cruel god. This is the belief of some Gnostics, that god is the bad guy, and satan is the good guy. Either way, it doesn't matter much, they're both simply impermanent beings bound by their own passions and attachments (if they even exist at all).

InChrist · Aug 31, 2013

dyanaprajna2011 said:
It's simply faith in an archaic book, and it's not even really that, it's faith in those who proclaim the book. A good read of the bible, and one get's the impression that satan is simply a scapegoat for a sadistic and cruel god. This is the belief of some Gnostics, that god is the bad guy, and satan is the good guy. Either way, it doesn't matter much, they're both simply impermanent beings bound by their own passions and attachments (if they even exist at all).

How do you know that? I mean you speak as if you have complete insight and understanding of the spiritual realm.

InChrist · Aug 31, 2013

Zanuku said:
This could easily be Gods attempt at manipulating us into adhering to his will y'know.
God could easily have been influencing their thoughts if they do in fact have those experiences. :cigar:

The idea of God having to manipulate makes no sense to me since He has already been completely up front in His Word and through Christ about the the way things are.

How did we determine that God is the good one and Satan is the evil one?

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