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Judaism and Deicide

According to the Gospels, Jesus came into Jerusalem on a donkey, being greeted with joy. There are proclamations that Jesus is the Messiah. Five days later, however, Jesus is arrested and suddenly the Jews hate him. There was supposedly a tradition of releasing one criminal that day, and the Jews chose a highwayman over Jesus—a man whose only crimes were being nasty to some rabbis and lawyers. Pontius Pilate, who from historical records is a cruel man, tries to get Jesus released, and is even portrayed as washing his hands of his blood. When he asks what his punishment should be, the Jews shouted that he be crucified.

What's going on? These are the people that greeted Jesus as their Messiah? Something is very wrong.

Is it possible that the account of the Crucifixion might be altered?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
According to the Gospels, Jesus came into Jerusalem on a donkey, being greeted with joy.

John Crossan claims this was a demonstration against Pilate mocking his entry by Jesus riding a female donkey.


If it was not, it would be my opinion it was the unknown authors adding OT mythology to match ancient prophecy.



There are proclamations that Jesus is the Messiah.

Yes but written about decades after his death by people that were not there and did not see anything, nor lived anywhere close to where Jesus did.


Five days later, however, Jesus is arrested and suddenly the Jews hate him.

This might be your misunderstanding of the title Jew.

So I would ask you which Jews hated him?

Hellenistic temple priest? Saducees? Pharisees? Essenes? Surely not the Zealots.


There was supposedly a tradition of releasing one criminal that day, and the Jews chose a highwayman over Jesus—a man whose only crimes were being nasty to some rabbis and lawyers.

Why couldnt the authors be writing fiction to add to their mythology?

You need to understand there was a need for the movement to distance itself from Judaism, so the authors made the Jews to look like the bad guys and shift the real blame away from the Romans, who would persecute the movement if it was viewed negatively. In my opinion.



Pontius Pilate, who from historical records is a cruel man, tries to get Jesus released, and is even portrayed as washing his hands of his blood. When he asks what his punishment should be, the Jews shouted that he be crucified.

Pilate and Caiaphas only wanted peace during Passover. There may not have even been a trial. Only orders to go hang that guy on a cross for causing a disturbance as to set a example.


What's going on?

Theology written with mythology by authors decades after the fact who were far removed from actual events.


These are the people that greeted Jesus as their Messiah?

Which people? Jews? which Jews?

Again Judaism was so wide and diverse and multi cultural. Modern theist would have a hard time comprehending the whole structure that many try writing books to explain and dont cover half the material needed.

Something is very wrong.

I think its with your understanding of historical knowledge. Hang out a while we can help with that.



Is it possible that the account of the Crucifixion might be altered

How so?


We are talking about people who were not there, from another culture, writing 40 year minimum after the fact. From a different geographic location adding what they wanted to describe what they needed for that time period, NOT the one in question.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
According to the Gospels, Jesus came into Jerusalem on a donkey, being greeted with joy. There are proclamations that Jesus is the Messiah. Five days later, however, Jesus is arrested and suddenly the Jews hate him. There was supposedly a tradition of releasing one criminal that day, and the Jews chose a highwayman over Jesus—a man whose only crimes were being nasty to some rabbis and lawyers. Pontius Pilate, who from historical records is a cruel man, tries to get Jesus released, and is even portrayed as washing his hands of his blood. When he asks what his punishment should be, the Jews shouted that he be crucified.

What's going on? These are the people that greeted Jesus as their Messiah? Something is very wrong.

Is it possible that the account of the Crucifixion might be altered?

The answer is He had both friends and enemies. His enemies held more political power.
 
John Crossan claims this was a demonstration against Pilate mocking his entry by Jesus riding a female donkey.

?


If it was not, it would be my opinion it was the unknown authors adding OT mythology to match ancient prophecy.

Likewise, though I believe the Crucifixion account to be falsified as well.



Yes but written about decades after his death by people that were not there and did not see anything, nor lived anywhere close to where Jesus did.

I was referring to the account depicted in the Gospels.


This might be your misunderstanding of the title Jew.

So I would ask you which Jews hated him?

Hellenistic temple priest? Saducees? Pharisees? Essenes? Surely not the Zealots.

The text doesn't say. If he was hated, it would probably be by the Pharisees the most. The Essenes, probably not. The Sadducees, they might not have liked him much. As for Zealots, I don't know.


Why couldnt the authors be writing fiction to add to their mythology?

xD There's one for the oxymoron list...

You need to understand there was a need for the movement to distance itself from Judaism, so the authors made the Jews to look like the bad guys and shift the real blame away from the Romans, who would persecute the movement if it was viewed negatively. In my opinion.

Again, likewise.


Again Judaism was so wide and diverse and multi cultural. Modern theist would have a hard time comprehending the whole structure that many try writing books to explain and dont cover half the material needed.

I know, though you might be exaggerating a little.

I think its with your understanding of historical knowledge. Hang out a while we can help with that.


"We?"



As in, the Jews weren't asked if they wanted Jesus to be killed or not. It was a decision made by Roman officials.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
As in, the Jews weren't asked if they wanted Jesus to be killed or not. It was a decision made by Roman officials.


They didnt get a choice. It was a Roman crime because Romans were policing the event.


Likewise, though I believe the Crucifixion account to be falsified as well.


You dont get a martyred man without a death. And crucifixion would be a Roman death.

I was referring to the account depicted in the Gospels.


Well that is not exactly accurate history now is it.


I know, though you might be exaggerating a little.

Sorry it is a understament.

Multi cultural explains much, for diversity. Jews had opened up the religion to except outsiders. Outsiders then established their own brands of Judaism, thats how Christianity formed.



The community here
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
According to the Gospels, Jesus came into Jerusalem on a donkey, being greeted with joy. There are proclamations that Jesus is the Messiah. Five days later, however, Jesus is arrested and suddenly the Jews hate him. There was supposedly a tradition of releasing one criminal that day, and the Jews chose a highwayman over Jesus—a man whose only crimes were being nasty to some rabbis and lawyers. Pontius Pilate, who from historical records is a cruel man, tries to get Jesus released, and is even portrayed as washing his hands of his blood. When he asks what his punishment should be, the Jews shouted that he be crucified.

What's going on? These are the people that greeted Jesus as their Messiah? Something is very wrong.

Is it possible that the account of the Crucifixion might be altered?

I doubt that anything of significance in the gospel stories of Jesus' arrival in Jerusalem, capture, trial, and execution has any historical factuality to it.

For one thing, Jesus is depicted as arriving in Jerusalem with everyone waving palm branches and shouting "hosanna" (a Greek or Latin corruption of the Hebrew hosha na, "Please rescue us," part of a liturgy of psalms sung on the pilgrimage holidays, but especially on Sukkot): the only time of year when Jews sing hosha na and wave palm branches is the holiday of Sukkot, which falls in Autumn, at the Autumn harvest. Yet all of a sudden, the Last Supper is apparently a Passover seder, which falls in Spring, five weeks before the Spring harvest. Clearly, the narrative is a pastiche of victorious entry stories.

Second of all, it is likely that all the people of the city didn't greet Jesus because most of them had probably never heard of him. There were hundreds of guys running around in those days claiming to be the messiah, and thousands of itinerant popular charismatic preachers. Jesus' popularity, if indeed he really had much among Jews, seems to have been rural, in the Galilee, and not urban, in Jerusalem.

Also, the story of Jesus capture is clearly cut from whole cloth: the High Priest had no power to convene a Great Sanhedrin, and during that era, no sanhedrin was handing out the death penalty for heresy or blasphemy, much less doing so by handing anyone over to the Romans. Aside from the fact that it is strictly forbidden for Jews to hand over a fellow Jew-- any fellow Jew, even a heretic-- to oppressive non-Jewish authorities, we are not permitted excessive torture, or capital punishment by any means save the four dictated in Torah (stoning, burning-- not at the stake, but by molten lead, which kills instantly-- beheading, and garrote), and prisoners must be rendered insensible, and killed as quickly as possible to prevent undue suffering. And no one can be executed by a Jewish court save on the independently verified eyewitness testimony of two people who warned the perpitrator not to commit their crime, and heard the perpitrator reject the warning before committing the act. If any court convicted Jesus of anything, it was clearly an illegitimate kangaroo court assembled by the Romans or the Herodians (who were the puppets of the Romans, which amounts to the same thing), nothing sanctioned by Jewish Law.

Even if there were Jews who wished Jesus dead, no one would demand that a Jew be crucified, nor encourage the Romans to kill other Jews, nor choose one life over another. It goes against everything we hold about justice, everything we hold about relating to an oppressive non-Jewish regime, and everything we hold about doing what God wants.

Whatever the facts of Jesus' demise may be, I am fairly certain they don't much resemble the stories in the gospels, which are most likely polemicized narratives written after the facts with specific agendas in mind.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
There are numerous problems with the story

1) His followers might have greeted him. The jews didn't.

2) The romans were brutal dicators. They didn't care about the jews' opinion.

They didn't give jews choices nor would the Romans do anything based on the will of the jews.

3) The romans couldn't care less about what the jews think of the punishment

4) The understanding of the jewish court is very poor.

Some of this was mentioned before, the criteria for the death penalty was so high that it was impossible to meet.

There has to be two eye witnesses

The eye witness had to warn the perp seconds before doing the crime and the punishment and the perp had to acknowledge it

If all of the judges ruled for the death penalty the death penalty couldn't be carried out

Also no jewish court would give someone tried in a jewish court over to non jews


The whole jesus thing is illogical

1) If jesus was god how we killed?

2) If jesus was the messiah why didn't he fulfill the messianic prophesies as described in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37?

3) If jesus died for christians sins why are they angry that he was killed? They should be happy that he was killed

4) If jesus wanted to sacrifice himself why didn't he kill himself rather than be captured and executed? Why didn't he slit his wrists or put a sword in his belly?

5) If jesus as some kind of hero, why were some of his last word "why have you forsaken me?"

The great jewish heroes proclaimed G-D's greatness when they were executed. None of them whined to G-D.

6) If jesus claimed he was god why did he tell god "Why have you forsaken me?" Whos is he talking to? Himself?

7) If jesus said that no one has to worry about their sins if they believe in him doesn't that contradict G-D who said Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)"?

8) If jesus claimed to be the son of god wouldn't he know about "
The Lord our God, the Lord is one." (Deuteronomy, 6:4)?


9) If jesus was supposedly who he said he was why are there so much stuff simply made up such as the gospel in the OP?

10) Since the romans actually excuted him, how come all the christian ire is toward the jews and not the romans?

 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
There are numerous problems with the story

1) His followers might have greeted him. The jews didn't.

2) The romans were brutal dicators. They didn't care about the jews' opinion.

They didn't give jews choices nor would the Romans do anything based on the will of the jews.

3) The romans couldn't care less about what the jews think of the punishment
The Romans do care about keeping the Jews happy and giving into their demands when they know that there have already been several bad riots and rebellions in the land before, and the next one would have seen see Pilate's head delivered to the Emperor on a platter.

If all of the judges ruled for the death penalty the death penalty couldn't be carried out
Which is why they took Him over to the Romans, to circumvent that problem.

Also no jewish court would give someone tried in a jewish court over to non jews
Not even a man that they absolutely despise, and is supposedly guilty of blasphemy, therefore cutting himself off from the people of Israel?

1) If jesus was god how we killed?
He let it happen.

2) If jesus was the messiah why didn't he fulfill the messianic prophesies as described in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37?
Erm, it's God doing those things, not a man. Unless you're saying that God is the Messiah?

3) If jesus died for christians sins why are they angry that he was killed? They should be happy that he was killed
How would you feel if someone killed the Messiah?

4) If jesus wanted to sacrifice himself why didn't he kill himself rather than be captured and executed? Why didn't he slit his wrists or put a sword in his belly?
Im sorry, what?

5) If jesus as some kind of hero, why were some of his last word "why have you forsaken me?"
What, you don't know Psalm 22?

The great jewish heroes proclaimed G-D's greatness when they were executed. None of them whined to G-D.
Jesus wasn't whining either.

6) If jesus claimed he was god why did he tell god "Why have you forsaken me?" Whos is he talking to? Himself?
Go and learn about the Trinity, and you'll have the Christian answer.

7) If jesus said that no one has to worry about their sins if they believe in him doesn't that contradict G-D who said Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)"?
Who says it's a contradiction? If Jesus is one of the Trinity, then it's perfectly in line with that statement.

8) If jesus claimed to be the son of god wouldn't he know about "
The Lord our God, the Lord is one." (Deuteronomy, 6:4)?
He knows about it and affirms it, and so do all who confess the Trinity.

9) If jesus was supposedly who he said he was why are there so much stuff simply made up such as the gospel in the OP?
Was it made up? Or are we just not getting the chronology right? For starters, Jesus wasn't sentenced or put on trial on the Sabbath, but on the eve of the Day of Preparation.

10) Since the romans actually excuted him, how come all the christian ire is toward the jews and not the romans?
Because it's the Jews who wanted Him dead so badly. The Romans didn't frankly care one way or the other.
 
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Juhurka

Member
According to the Gospels, Jesus came into Jerusalem on a donkey, being greeted with joy. There are proclamations that Jesus is the Messiah. Five days later, however, Jesus is arrested and suddenly the Jews hate him. There was supposedly a tradition of releasing one criminal that day, and the Jews chose a highwayman over Jesus—a man whose only crimes were being nasty to some rabbis and lawyers. Pontius Pilate, who from historical records is a cruel man, tries to get Jesus released, and is even portrayed as washing his hands of his blood. When he asks what his punishment should be, the Jews shouted that he be crucified.

What's going on? These are the people that greeted Jesus as their Messiah? Something is very wrong.

Is it possible that the account of the Crucifixion might be altered?

Considering that we have no idea who wrote the gospels and the attitude towards Jews, its only logical for the author to claim that Jews wanted him crucified. That is what I call pseudo intellectualism. Those who studied Jewish history know quite well that Jews stoned people as capital punishment not crucified and even if Jews did call for his death, what else do you expect from people towards those who turned to the enemy. Treason is treason in any nationality.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Considering that we have no idea who wrote the gospels and the attitude towards Jews, its only logical for the author to claim that Jews wanted him crucified. That is what I call pseudo intellectualism. Those who studied Jewish history know quite well that Jews stoned people as capital punishment not crucified and even if Jews did call for his death, what else do you expect from people towards those who turned to the enemy. Treason is treason in any nationality.
Actually, hanging from a tree is allowed in the Law.

“If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, 23 his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of God.

Crucifixion can very easily be fit into this definition of "hanging on a tree" with a bit of interpretation (which Pharisees were very good and creative with), so having Christ crucified would have been the perfect way to execute Him; it would have been the most shameful, humiliating, degrading, painful way possible to die. And to boot, it would curse Christ, thus theoretically completely disproving once and for all that He could ever be considered the Messiah or even any sort of prophet.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
The Romans do care about keeping the Jews happy and giving into their demands when they know that there have already been several bad riots and rebellions in the land before, and the next one would have seen see Pilate's head delivered to the Emperor on a platter.

Generally speaking, the Roman Empire didn't avoid rebellions by placating the provincials: they quashed rebellions brutally, or ensured they didn't happen by keeping the populace firmly under their thumb. Pontius Pilate, personally, was not known for his placation and diplomacy: he was known for crucifying anyone who even vaguely annoyed him.

Which is why they took Him over to the Romans, to circumvent that problem.
Not even a man that they absolutely despise, and is supposedly guilty of blasphemy, therefore cutting himself off from the people of Israel?
Nope. Never going to happen from any legitimate Jewish court. We take care of our own justice, or it doesn't happen. If a court can't convict and execute someone fairly and without cruelty, then the accused goes free. Even the merest hint of trying to rig the trial nullifies it, and the accused goes free. No matter what the defendant stands accused of, no legitimate Jewish court would ever rig a verdict or circumvent it by handing over the accused to an oppressive non-Jewish regime for torture.

Because it's the Jews who wanted Him dead so badly. The Romans didn't frankly care one way or the other.
Very likely most Jews had no idea who he was. Christians vastly overestimate Jesus' popularity in his own lifetime, because he's Jesus, and deeply important to Christians. But in his own lifetime, he was just one of countless charismatic itinerant preachers, ascetic radicals, false prophets, and messiah claimants running around ancient Israel. If anyone killed him, it would've been the Romans, who killed people at the drop of a hat, especially at the slightest hint of "rabble-rousing" or disturbing the peace.

Actually, hanging from a tree is allowed in the Law.
“If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, 23 his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of God.

That's not what that means. What that verse refers to is displaying the body of an executed criminal as a deterrent to crime-- a widespread practice in the ancient world, and later-- even up to the 19th century, in places. We were absolutely forbidden execution by hanging, impaling, or crucifixion: they are all far too slow and cruel. Our methods of execution must be quick. The verse is about what one might do with the body of a person executed legally with one of the four permitted methods of execution, after they are dead.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Very likely most Jews had no idea who he was. Christians vastly overestimate Jesus' popularity in his own lifetime, because he's Jesus, and deeply important to Christians. But in his own lifetime, he was just one of countless charismatic itinerant preachers, ascetic radicals, false prophets, and messiah claimants running around ancient Israel. If anyone killed him, it would've been the Romans, who killed people at the drop of a hat, especially at the slightest hint of "rabble-rousing" or disturbing the peace. .


Exactly.

Romans policed the event.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Generally speaking, the Roman Empire didn't avoid rebellions by placating the provincials: they quashed rebellions brutally, or ensured they didn't happen by keeping the populace firmly under their thumb. Pontius Pilate, personally, was not known for his placation and diplomacy: he was known for crucifying anyone who even vaguely annoyed him.

Nope. Never going to happen from any legitimate Jewish court. We take care of our own justice, or it doesn't happen. If a court can't convict and execute someone fairly and without cruelty, then the accused goes free. Even the merest hint of trying to rig the trial nullifies it, and the accused goes free. No matter what the defendant stands accused of, no legitimate Jewish court would ever rig a verdict or circumvent it by handing over the accused to an oppressive non-Jewish regime for torture.

Very likely most Jews had no idea who he was. Christians vastly overestimate Jesus' popularity in his own lifetime, because he's Jesus, and deeply important to Christians. But in his own lifetime, he was just one of countless charismatic itinerant preachers, ascetic radicals, false prophets, and messiah claimants running around ancient Israel. If anyone killed him, it would've been the Romans, who killed people at the drop of a hat, especially at the slightest hint of "rabble-rousing" or disturbing the peace.



That's not what that means. What that verse refers to is displaying the body of an executed criminal as a deterrent to crime-- a widespread practice in the ancient world, and later-- even up to the 19th century, in places. We were absolutely forbidden execution by hanging, impaling, or crucifixion: they are all far too slow and cruel. Our methods of execution must be quick. The verse is about what one might do with the body of a person executed legally with one of the four permitted methods of execution, after they are dead.
Exactly right.

The romans dealt with possible rebellion by killing anyone that mildly annoyed them.

That the romans would consult the jews for advice on who and how to kill is utterly rediculous.

I realized that I asked the questions about jesus, but the reality is that there are no logical answers.

G-D told the jews to only accept him.

He told the jews not to worship gods that they don't know.

He made it clear what the messianic prophesies are and that the messiah will fulfill them. Jesus didn't.

Worshipping jesus to jews is no different than worshipping a golden calf.

It's troubeling that the stories in the christian bible were made up to create hatred toward jews.

Anyone who has the most basic knowledge of judaism and how jewish courts work know that the stories aren't even close to plausible.

So the real question is why did they lie like this?

The Torah and the chrisitan bible are mutually exclusive.

Either you believe the Torah that says only to worship the one G-D and only to rely on him and anyone else is a fraud or you center a religion based on jesus.

You can not with intelletual honesty do both.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Exactly right.

The romans dealt with possible rebellion by killing anyone that mildly annoyed them.

That the romans would consult the jews for advice on who and how to kill is utterly rediculous.

I realized that I asked the questions about jesus, but the reality is that there are no logical answers.

G-D told the jews to only accept him.

He told the jews not to worship gods that they don't know.

He made it clear what the messianic prophesies are and that the messiah will fulfill them. Jesus didn't.

Worshipping jesus to jews is no different than worshipping a golden calf.

It's troubeling that the stories in the christian bible were made up to create hatred toward jews.

Anyone who has the most basic knowledge of judaism and how jewish courts work know that the stories aren't even close to plausible.

So the real question is why did they lie like this?

The Torah and the chrisitan bible are mutually exclusive.

Either you believe the Torah that says only to worship the one G-D and only to rely on him and anyone else is a fraud or you center a religion based on jesus.

You can not with intelletual honesty do both.

You can say that you only worship God, and that the Jews have been doing so, but then that would be a lie. And you can say that your laws have been followed, but then again this becomes a lie, time and time again, as well. The evidence is all over your history, your Scripture, and your current condition.

Your whole religion focuses on flesh and blood. And you've put flesh and blood as your foundation since the beginning. Your current foundation is Israel. And you've been racists for quite some time now, not willing to pollute your flesh and blood fathers. You've been intolerant of the outside world for some time.

And yet, your Scripture has been continually reminding you of your error. Adam was the first warning. He died. And we die. Genesis 6:3. Abraham stumbled many times. Moses stumbled many times. Jacob stumbled many times. David and Solomon, as well. All the prophets and fathers died, with Adam. The only One still standing, and worthy of worship, is the Everlasting Father.

And while you believe Christianity to be idolatry, it isn't. At its worst it's no worse than your worship. And at it's best, it puts the entire Adam, including Abraham, Isaac, Israel, and Jesus, under the Everlasting Father. We pray saying, 'Our Father, in Heaven.' And we accept Genesis 6:3, by acknowledging salvation comes from God who is Spirit, not flesh. This is evidenced by our acceptance of every brother and sister of mankind, and the requirements saying that we must be baptised of Spirit.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
We all stumble many times. We are human.

G-D knows this. He created us. He expects it.

If we were robots and didn't struggle to ignore evil temptation we would not get closer to G-D.

The religion's focus is to get closer to G-D.

Based on the what G-D told the jews in the Torah, worshipping jesus and worshipping a golden is calf is morally the same thing.

In both cases a false god is being worshipped which G-D has said numerous times not to do.
 
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