The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World

Lady B · Sep 9, 2012

InvestigateTruth said:
The verse from Quran that you quoted, does not say Muhammad is the Last of the Prophets. The word in the verse is "KhatAm" which was a device used to seal or stamp a document to confirm or used as an ornamant on a ring.

The early Moslems did not believe, there will never be another Prophet after Muhammad.

Aisha, the wife of the Muhammad states:

"Say he is 'seal of prophets' but do not say there is no prophet after him."

Also, it is recorded that 'Khatamul Auliya means 'Seal of the believers - a title bestowed upon Ali by Muhammad. Which does not mean Ali was the final believer.
So the word "KhatAm" does not necessarily mean the Last.
Should Allah wanted to close every door to another revelation, He would say that with no way to interpret differently, so, no false prophet could claim.

The intention of Hadithes is also to say no Prophet or Messenger untill Mahdi. Another interpretation of Hadith is that within the Islamic Period, there would not come any prophets, but only Khalifs. (and this indeed happend, only khalifs came)

According to Islamic Traditions, the period of people of Muhammad is 1000 years, and after that Mahdi comes. This period is already passed.

A Muslim just posted a video of Mohammad last great speech/sermon a few posts back, in this post it was Mohammad himself saying he is the last prophet, take a look. This is a issue between Bahai and Islam and the validation of prophets, does not pertain to me at all, I just know that in reading The Hadiths I have seen it reported He did indeed claim to be the last and final prophet which of course does not effect my beliefs as much as it would yours. My point is, It is not my debate I just provided a Hadith because I know they do exist.
perhaps some helpful person can teach me how to quote just a part of a post?

otokage007 · Sep 9, 2012

It seems to me that u are simply a....

FAN

InvestigateTruth · Sep 9, 2012

Lady B said:
A Muslim just posted a video of Mohammad last great speech/sermon a few posts back, in this post it was Mohammad himself saying he is the last prophet, take a look. This is a issue between Bahai and Islam and the validation of prophets, does not pertain to me at all, I just know that in reading The Hadiths I have seen it reported He did indeed claim to be the last and final prophet which of course does not effect my beliefs as much as it would yours. My point is, It is not my debate I just provided a Hadith because I know they do exist.
perhaps some helpful person can teach me how to quote just a part of a post?

I am well aware of all those Hadithes. I have already discussed them with other Moslems and showed in a different view, when combined with the verses of Quran, they do NOT mean never another revelation after Quran.
It would also not effect my beliefs either, because Baha'i faith has come for this new Age to unite All mankind, and Islam came for previous Age. I believe other religions also came for their own age from God. This is called the concept of progressive revelation:

Progressive revelation is a core teaching in the Bahá'í Faith that suggests that religious truth is revealed by God progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance.[1][2] Thus, the Bahá'í teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is the most recent (though not the last—that there will never be a last), and therefore the most relevant to modern society.[1]

Progressive revelation (Bahá'í) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lady B · Sep 9, 2012

InvestigateTruth said:
I am well aware of all those Hadithes. I have already discussed them with other Moslems and showed in a different view, when combined with the verses of Quran, they do NOT mean never another revelation after Quran.
It would also not effect my beliefs either, because Baha'i faith has come for this new Age to unite All mankind, and Islam came for previous Age. I believe other religions also came for their own age from God. This is called the concept of progressive revelation:

Progressive revelation is a core teaching in the Bahá'í Faith that suggests that religious truth is revealed by God progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance.[1][2] Thus, the Bahá'í teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is the most recent (though not the lastthat there will never be a last), and therefore the most relevant to modern society.[1]

Progressive revelation (Bahá'í) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps I misunderstood a post a while back where I thought you said " I don't believe there are any hadiths that say Mohamed was the last prophet" you didn't say that? So I showed you a hadith and the Muslim poster here showed another.

The point I was making is, If it would be true that Mohamed claimed He was the final prophet excepting the controversial mahdi then It would certainly effect your religion why? Because your religion adheres to the prophet Mohamed, and he would essentially ,illegitamamize your prophet Bahaullah rigt? While my religion is not effected whatsoever by proving or disproving Mohammed's claim.

InvestigateTruth · Sep 9, 2012

Lady B said:
Perhaps I misunderstood a post a while back where I thought you said " I don't believe there are any hadiths that say Mohamed was the last prophet" you didn't say that? So I showed you a hadith and the Muslim poster here showed another.

The point I was making is, If it would be true that Mohamed claimed He was the final prophet excepting the controversial mahdi then It would certainly effect your religion why? Because your religion adheres to the prophet Mohamed, and he would essentially ,illegitamamize your prophet Bahaullah rigt? While my religion is not effected whatsoever by proving or disproving Mohammed's claim.

Well, I see your point. The relation between the Baha'i faith and Islam is like Christianity with Jewish faith. The Jewish scriptures talks about two promised ones, the Messiah and the return of Elijah. Then, once Jesus and john the baptist appeared, those who believed Jesus is the Messiah and John the Baptist was the return of Elijah, became known as Christians.
Likewise, Islam has two promised ones. The Mahdi and return of Christ. When The Bab and Baha'u'llah appeared, those who believed the Bab was the Mahdi, and Baha'u'llah the return of Christ, became known as Baha'is.
The similarity is that, the Jews also believe their religion is the final revelation, don't they? They believe in a Messiah that would keep the Jewish traditions and Laws, don't they?
So, likewise, the mainstream Moslems, believe in a Mahdi and Christ, that keeps Islamic laws.

Offcourse, from the Jews there has been many who became Christians. Likewise among Moslems, there has been many who became Baha'is.
When Jesus appeared, for a couple of centuries, the number of Christians around the world was not as many. Likewise, it has passed a couple of centuries from the revelation of Baha'i faith.

InvestigateTruth · Sep 9, 2012

al-amiyr said:
Can you bring some of those Sunni hadiyths so that I can look at them as well. You can discuss them if you consider it necessary to explain your viewpoint.

This Hadith is a good starting point for discussing regarding revelation after Quran:

Narrated Ibn Umar: "We were talking about Hajjat-ul-Wada, while the Prophet was amongst us. We did not know what Hajjat-ul-Wada' signified. The Prophet praised Allah and then mentioned Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal [anti-Christ] and described him extensively, saying "Allah did not send any prophet but that prophet warned his nation of Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal. Noah and the prophets following him warned (their people) of him. He [Al-Masih] will appear amongst you [among Muhammad's followers], and if it happens that some of his qualities may be hidden from you, but your Lord's State is clear to you and not hidden from you. The Prophet said it thrice. Verily, your Lord is not blind in one eye, while he [Ad-Dajjal] is blind in the right eye which looks like a grape bulging out [of its cluster]. No doubt! Allah has made your blood and your properties sacred to one another like the sanctity of this day of yours, in this town of yours, in this month of yours. "The Prophet added: No doubt! Haven't I conveyed Allah's Message to you?" They replied, "Yes," The Prophet said thrice, "O Allah! Be witness for it." The Prophet added, "Woe to you!, May Allah be merciful to you! Do not become infidels after me by cutting the necks [throats] of one another." -Sahih Bukhari 5:685

This Hadith makes a distinction between Dajjal [anti-Christ] who is supposed to have one eye [partial vision] and Maseeh Who is supposed to have two eyes (total vision).

We know that Allah based on the Qur'an and Bible, does not have a body or human parts to appear as Maseeh among the believers in the Day of Resurrection.
This particular Hadith is refering to the Return of Christ as coming of the Lord. Which means, Allah's word would be revealed among people.

FearGod · Sep 9, 2012

Lady B said:
Ok let me address humbleness of Mohamed. In his great night journey into the 7 heavens did he not tell his followers that he passed Moses and other prophets on his way to the throne? And when he was at the entrance even the angel Gabriel could not enter, only Mohammad entered and spoke to God. As he departed Moses said to him go ask God for a smaller number of prayer times per day as if only Mohammad had power to negotiate with God.He went back numerous times until the number was down to 5. One Hadith has Mohammad saying his own name is on or above the throne of God.

This is not humbleness my friend, I am not disrespecting your prophet I am pointing out an opposite view taken from your Hadiths.

The quran did never mention such story that Mohammed pbuh was ascended to heaven and even Mohammed didn't know how heaven looks like by other hadiths.

Lets first see what the quran said about the journey.

Holy is He Who carried His servant by night from the Holy Mosque (in Makka) to the farther Mosque (in Jerusalem) - whose surroundings We have blessed - that We might show him some of Our signs 1. Indeed He alone is All-Hearing, All-Seeing. (Quran 17:1)

So the journey was just between Makka and Jerusalem according to the quran.

investigate the hadith which make it clear that Mohammed pbuh didn't even know how heaven looks like

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, said: I have prepared for My pious servants which the eye has seen not, and the ear has heard not and no human heart has ever perceived such bounties leaving aside those about which Allah has informed you. He then recited:" No soul knows what comfort has been hidden for thein". (Sahih Muslim)

Also it is mentioned in the quran that the journey of the spirit to heaven takes 50 thousands years of world time and that is impossible to be reached within one night journey

(Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years. (70:4)

Also the judgement day didn't yet started that the hadith claimed that Mohammed pbuh saw people in hell,so that is also irrational.

There are many fabricated hadith and we have to use our senses and investigate to see if it is true or false.

That fabricated hadith showing also god as a hesitating deity by not able to make his decision for how many times we should pray per day as if human got better knowledge how much we should pray or how much can we afford to do so.

Reason well and use your senses and logic to find the truth.

Barrackubus · Sep 9, 2012

This xtians claim to fame their archetype ressurected from the dead, beating all the penalties.of.death, sin and the grave, last heard your Mohammed is still dead, much like your religion...

Cordoba · Sep 9, 2012

Anyone familiar with Michael Hart's Book?

Hart is a non-Muslim writer who wrote this book in 1978, with a ranking of the top 100 influential persons in history:

[youtube]B3gTtw23mS8[/youtube]
The 100 Michael Hart - YouTube

The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History is a 1978 book by Michael H. Hart, reprinted in 1992 with revisions. It is a ranking of the 100 people who, according to Hart, most influenced human history.

The first person on Hart's list is Muhammad. Hart asserted that Muhammad was "supremely successful" in both the religious and secular realms. He also opined that Muhammad's role in the development of Islam was far more influential than Jesus' collaboration in the development of Christianity. He attributes the development of Christianity to St. Paul, who played a pivotal role in its dissemination

In an era when the World was awash with rivers of blind prejudices and nonsensical ignorances, The Prophets (pbuh) divine message and glorious teachings became the purging torrents of spiritual enlightenment. The farewell sermon is an embodiment of dynamics of Islam.

This is the full ranking:

The 100 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Number 2 on the list is Isaac Newton

9Westy9 · Sep 10, 2012

al-amiyr said:
One day a Muslim Man an a Jewish man concluded a business contract. The Jew said by, "Moses who is the greatest of all." The Muslim slapped the Jew in the face and said, "by Muhammad who is the greatest of all." The Jew went to complain to the prophet and told the prophet what had happened. The prophet called the Muslim and said, " did you know that when the hour comes everyone will be knocked unconscious including me but I will be the first to awake and then I will see Moses at the throne of God and would not know in what state he was".

Look how humble the Prophet (S+) was.

Yes, very humble :facepalm:

al-amiyr · Sep 10, 2012

Barrackubus said:
This xtians claim to fame their archetype ressurected from the dead, beating all the penalties.of.death, sin and the grave, last heard your Mohammed is still dead, much like your religion...

Yes Muhammad (S+) can be dead but God lives. We do not serve Muhammad (S+). He was a human being not God.The Messenger of God sent to you as well as to me with consequences of its rejection in the hereafter.

Lady B · Sep 10, 2012

9Westy9 said:
Yes, very humble

I was sooooo wanting to point that out myself, but sat on my hands....so TY

Lady B · Sep 10, 2012

FearGod said:
The quran did never mention such story that Mohammed pbuh was ascended to heaven and even Mohammed didn't know how heaven looks like by other hadiths.

Lets first see what the quran said about the journey.

Holy is He Who carried His servant by night from the Holy Mosque (in Makka) to the farther Mosque (in Jerusalem) - whose surroundings We have blessed - that We might show him some of Our signs 1. Indeed He alone is All-Hearing, All-Seeing. (Quran 17:1)

So the journey was just between Makka and Jerusalem according to the quran.

investigate the hadith which make it clear that Mohammed pbuh didn't even know how heaven looks like

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, said: I have prepared for My pious servants which the eye has seen not, and the ear has heard not and no human heart has ever perceived such bounties leaving aside those about which Allah has informed you. He then recited:" No soul knows what comfort has been hidden for thein". (Sahih Muslim)

Also it is mentioned in the quran that the journey of the spirit to heaven takes 50 thousands years of world time and that is impossible to be reached within one night journey

(Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years. (70:4)

Also the judgement day didn't yet started that the hadith claimed that Mohammed pbuh saw people in hell,so that is also irrational.

There are many fabricated hadith and we have to use our senses and investigate to see if it is true or false.

That fabricated hadith showing also god as a hesitating deity by not able to make his decision for how many times we should pray per day as if human got better knowledge how much we should pray or how much can we afford to do so.

Reason well and use your senses and logic to find the truth.

In all due respect,If you questioned any scripture of my own religion I would not reply" well that is just a fabricated chapter" . You cannot deny this is indeed a Hadith that many Muslims believe, whether you choose to acknowledge it, does not mean it does not exist. I am aware the Koran only gives a brief acknowledgement of this night journey, however Islam is not based on the Koran alone. In summery It is for Islam to clarify which Hadiths are genuine and which are fabrications. When I have a list of The Hadiths That are reliable for the majority then I will try to limit my study to those. No two Muslims I have met have agreed unanimously.
As for the journey to Jerusalem in the same night. Mohammad was questioned and asked to describe the temple, I believe it was Jews who asked him, for they had foreknowledge the temple was destroyed 300 years prior to Mohammad journey.

So my question to you is this: Do you believe this was a vision or a literal journey? Do you dispute the entire Hadith which describes this Journey or Only the 7 heavens part?

Breathe · Sep 10, 2012

9Westy9 said:
Yes, very humble

That actually made me laugh out loud.

marizfaith · Sep 10, 2012

al-amiyr said:
Yes Muhammad (S+) can be dead but God lives. We do not serve Muhammad (S+). He was a human being not God.The Messenger of God sent to you as well as to me with consequences of its rejection in the hereafter.

I do not agree with you my friend. I think even a messenger of god should be respected.
He was a great man.

al-amiyr · Sep 10, 2012

marizfaith said:
I do not agree with you my friend. I think even a messenger of god should be respected.
He was a great man.

I do not understand what you said or meant.

FearGod · Sep 10, 2012

Lady B said:
In all due respect,If you questioned any scripture of my own religion I would not reply" well that is just a fabricated chapter" . You cannot deny this is indeed a Hadith that many Muslims believe, whether you choose to acknowledge it, does not mean it does not exist. I am aware the Koran only gives a brief acknowledgement of this night journey, however Islam is not based on the Koran alone. In summery It is for Islam to clarify which Hadiths are genuine and which are fabrications. When I have a list of The Hadiths That are reliable for the majority then I will try to limit my study to those. No two Muslims I have met have agreed unanimously.
As for the journey to Jerusalem in the same night. Mohammad was questioned and asked to describe the temple, I believe it was Jews who asked him, for they had foreknowledge the temple was destroyed 300 years prior to Mohammad journey.

So my question to you is this: Do you believe this was a vision or a literal journey? Do you dispute the entire Hadith which describes this Journey or Only the 7 heavens part?

i don't believe that the prophet pbuh was asked to prove that he wasn't a lier,because he was known actually before Islam as a honest person that had never lie during his life that even when he ordered to inform his people about god's message,he said to them did i ever lie.also the journey was a sign from god to his prophet only and not to his people as mentioned in the quran.

So to me the journey to heaven and going to god back and forth asking to make the prayer less,oh my god,How rediculous.

But the journey to Jerusalem in one night,that make sense to me,but not by a flying animal as what have been said in hadith,if it was true,then why not mentioned in the quran,also why the heaven journey wasn't mention in the quran.

i believe in the quran to be correct %100,but i investigate each hadith myself.

Lady B · Sep 10, 2012

FearGod said:
i don't believe that the prophet pbuh was asked to prove that he wasn't a lier,because he was known actually before Islam as a honest person that had never lie during his life that even when he ordered to inform his people about god's message,he said to them did i ever lie.also the journey was a sign from god to his prophet only and not to his people as mentioned in the quran.

So to me the journey to heaven and going to god back and forth asking to make the prayer less,oh my god,How rediculous.

But the journey to Jerusalem in one night,that make sense to me,but not by a flying animal as what have been said in hadith,if it was true,then why not mentioned in the quran,also why the heaven journey wasn't mention in the quran.

i believe in the quran to be correct %100,but i investigate each hadith myself.

Well IMO and I have asked for this frequently, Islam needs to get their religion together! Some Muslims say Aisha's letters are not trustworthy, some say The only really trustworthy Hadiths are narrated by Abu Bakr. Here lies the problem for me. Quite often when I find something in a Hadith that contradicts the Koran the Muslim will say well that Hadith is not reliable. You will never hear me or Biblical scholars dismiss any part of our scriptures even If they are difficult to defend. For example many Muslims have tried to attack the bible and It's authenticity for the story of Noah being drunk or Lot and his daughters. I cannot till now defend these stories but will not dismiss them and say well they are fabrications or false teachings. I must except my bible has some rather riskier subject matter and seek to understand in order to argue rationally.

loverOfTruth · Sep 10, 2012

InvestigateTruth said:
Yes, I believe Muhammad was a Divine Messenger, a Manifestation of God who was infallible. I had also made a separate thread regarding Muhammad:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...910-prophet-muhammad-christian-community.html

Although I disagree that Muhammad ever claimed to have the final revelation. Both Quran and Hadithes reject the idea that He claimed final revelation.

Please read Al-Qur'an 33:40

Yusuf Ali
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things."

Sahih International
"Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing."

FearGod · Sep 10, 2012

Lady B said:
Well IMO and I have asked for this frequently, Islam needs to get their religion together! Some Muslims say Aisha's letters are not trustworthy, some say The only really trustworthy Hadiths are narrated by Abu Bakr. Here lies the problem for me. Quite often when I find something in a Hadith that contradicts the Koran the Muslim will say well that Hadith is not reliable. You will never hear me or Biblical scholars dismiss any part of our scriptures even If they are difficult to defend. For example many Muslims have tried to attack the bible and It's authenticity for the story of Noah being drunk or Lot and his daughters. I cannot till now defend these stories but will not dismiss them and say well they are fabrications or false teachings. I must except my bible has some rather riskier subject matter and seek to understand in order to argue rationally.

Muslims believe that the quran is %100 correct while the bible isn't(for muslims at least) as well as they admitted that not all hadith are % 100 correct.even some muslims whom are called quranic don't rely on any hadith and in my humble opinion that is also wrong,we shouldn't neglect all the hadith,but to accept what is in line and do agree with the quran.

The most important for muslims is the quran which is god's words.

The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World

noob

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

noob

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Freedom Of Mind

Residential Occultist

Well-Known Member

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian

Active Member

noob

noob

Hostis humani generis

Ten Boom

Active Member

Freedom Of Mind

noob

Well-Known Member

Freedom Of Mind