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Where to find God

BSM1

What? Me worry?
I think most people who have difficulty in finding or defining God think in terms of "God" and "something else" when it should be God period. I feel that God is everything known and unknown. I also believe that God is the knowing as well as the not knowing. So the disbelief of the most fervent atheist is as much "god" as the greatest miracle performed by any Catholic saint. It's up to each individual as to what aspect of God they choose to display.
 

Godwilling

Organic, kinetic learner
I think by now, we can safely say no proof or disproof of God would be accepted by both sides.

In your example above, can you give me one hypothetical 'A' and 'B' example. I think you might be asking cor the realistically impossible.

No, I am actually offering him an opportunity to communicate his thoughts logically rather than to say something akin to "God exists, therefore..." The assertion is the product of the logic and not the other way around. Otherwise, it is akin saying "just because..."
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Reb Levi Yitzchok of Berditchev wrote, anoh emtzo'achoh, Riboyno shel Oylam, v'onoh lo emtzo'achoh, Riboyno shel Oylam/vo kan ich dich ja gefinen, un vo kan ich dich nisht gefinen ("Where shall I find you, Master of the World, and where shall I not find you? Where can I indeed find you, and where can I indeed not find you?")

Perhaps God is there for you to find Him, and perhaps He is not there for you to find Him. But you will certainly not find Him if you don't look. And perhaps if you do look, you will find Him often, and nearby.

Much depends on your own openness to the experience.

I think people have an inherent drive to seek for and try to touch the numinous. I think more often than not, God is to be found somewhere in that spectrum of experiences. .

I feel the same way about it: God isn't in the finding, He's in the looking for.
 

tempter

Active Member
The bible god clearly exists based on the profound impact that particular being (whatever it turns out to be) has on this world. That impact may be insignificant to the universe itself and reality, however that is merely a function of this world being insignificant. Non-existent things have no impact on reality whatsoever.

Is it a state of mind? At the very least. I would say it is also a character in a pretty popular story. I would also say it is quite the driving force for millions of human beings. I would also say it is the driving force for your question, to put a fine point on it. Whether it exists beyond these particular capacities is up to the individual to decide. I personally don't think there is much more to it, but then again who cares what I think? Only me, really.

As I said, it exists in the minds of believers - not outside that. What we make of this mental character doesn't change what it "is".
Funny enough, I would say the being(s) that created the God myth existed, but they weren't the 'gods' people claimed them to be.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
As I said, it exists in the minds of believers - not outside that.

So you don't think there is any connection between thought and action? Not sure what to make of that uncommon opinion.

What we make of this mental character doesn't change what it "is".

In fact, if that's all that it is then it most assuredly, absolutely and undeniably DOES change what it is.

Funny enough, I would say the being(s) that created the God myth existed, but they weren't the 'gods' people claimed them to be.

Wait... so they aren't gods because...?
 

tempter

Active Member
So you don't think there is any connection between thought and action? Not sure what to make of that uncommon opinion.
That's not what was said.



In fact, if that's all that it is then it most assuredly, absolutely and undeniably DOES change what it is.
Not at all. It is what each thinks it is because it's a mental creation unique to each individual


Wait... so they aren't gods because...?
Because gods are supernatural. The beings that ancient people considered gods weren't supernatural. They were technologically advanced mortal beings. Nothing "supernatural" about them
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
That's not what was said.

But its what it means. If god does not exist outside the mind, you're going to have to explain how I keep seeing the word on my screen every time I type it. And then you (somewhere else in the world) also see it. Seems a bit outside to me.

Not at all. It is what each thinks it is because it's a mental creation unique to each individual

And when those mental creations change, what happens? No change? Oops, you're wrong they change instantly and undeniably.

Because gods are supernatural. The beings that ancient people considered gods weren't supernatural. They were technologically advanced mortal beings. Nothing "supernatural" about them

I'm sorry, I can't stop laughing at this part.

Can you go ahead and tell me why you insist that gods are supernatural? You just said the 'beings gods are based on' were not supernatural. Why would you then suppose that gods have to be supernatural? Sounds like you are looking for an excuse to disbelieve in gods. It's like you want there to be something LIKE gods, but gods is a dirty word so you've created a random quality 'supernatural' in order to make sure nothing is ever really a god. Its a bit silly. Mental creations can be fun. Yours is a bit chaotic for my taste.
 

tempter

Active Member
But its what it means. If god does not exist outside the mind, you're going to have to explain how I keep seeing the word on my screen every time I type it. And then you (somewhere else in the world) also see it. Seems a bit outside to me.



And when those mental creations change, what happens? No change? Oops, you're wrong they change instantly and undeniably.



I'm sorry, I can't stop laughing at this part.

Can you go ahead and tell me why you insist that gods are supernatural? You just said the 'beings gods are based on' were not supernatural. Why would you then suppose that gods have to be supernatural? Sounds like you are looking for an excuse to disbelieve in gods. It's like you want there to be something LIKE gods, but gods is a dirty word so you've created a random quality 'supernatural' in order to make sure nothing is ever really a god. Its a bit silly. Mental creations can be fun. Yours is a bit chaotic for my taste.

What it "means" is what you interpret it to mean. Which is something I can't control. I can only control what I say.
They don't change. The individual changes the way they interpret them. Big difference. To understand it you have to think about it more than you apparently have.
Laughing shows your immaturity and a closed (and/or brain-washed) mind. But if that helps you sleep at night, by all means, laugh until your jaw falls off as it doesn't matter to me in the slightest.
Gods are supernatural by definition, current reality and societal norms. Why do you insist they aren't supernatural?
There is no excuse not to believe in gods. The excuses lie within those that believe in gods with no facts or data to support their beliefs. Seeing it otherwise shows a lack of understanding of self. Though, based on your "can't stop laughing" response, it's not surprising.
Though you are right - mental creations can be fun. Why else does one believe in a being that created everything that is without responsibility? A story that wouldn't get past the first review in the worst Hollywood review? Fun indeed! :slap:
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
What it "means" is what you interpret it to mean. Which is something I can't control. I can only control what I say.

Well control what you say a bit better then. Try to keep it within the realm of reality while you are at it. It helps the rest of us understand you. My comment stands. If gods do not exist outside of my mind, then how am I able to read the word right here on my screen which is not in my mind. Or are you suggesting that the monitor I'm looking at is in my mind as well? I really hope so. I really, really hope that is what you are saying.

They don't change. The individual changes the way they interpret them. Big difference. To understand it you have to think about it more than you apparently have.

That's interesting. So a concept that exists solely within the mind (like a god in your opinion) cannot change by way of the very same mind it exists solely within. It's just interpretation at that point. Once the concept is formed, it is static and cannot change any further. This is your position? I think you might want to revise it. Err, wait... reinterpret it... Picking up what I'm laying down yet?

Laughing shows your immaturity and a closed (and/or brain-washed) mind. But if that helps you sleep at night, by all means, laugh until your jaw falls off as it doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

Oh, don't be so defensive. You said something ridiculous. It made me laugh. My maturity level has nothing to do with it (it's pretty low anyway).

Gods are supernatural by definition, current reality and societal norms.

Maybe you should look up that definition again. As far as reality is concerned... umm... I'm pretty sure you don't believe in gods. So, you know... reality is telling you exactly nothing about gods. Think about it. As far as societal norms is concerned... seriously? You call me brainwashed and then you tell me gods must be supernatural because SOCIETY says so? REALLY?

Why do you insist they aren't supernatural?

So that I can believe in them. See how that works? I believe in the gods I want to. You believe in the gods you want to. You give them special attributes like 'supernatural' so that you can dismiss them as myth. Isn't that funny how that works the same way for both of us?

There is no excuse not to believe in gods. The excuses lie within those that believe in gods with no facts or data to support their beliefs. Seeing it otherwise shows a lack of understanding of self. Though, based on your "can't stop laughing" response, it's not surprising.

By saying gods are supernatural you are pigeonholing them into non-existence. You do this purposefully. It's your magical story. You get to assign the quality of non-existence to gods so that you don't have to believe in them. Now ancient aliens that's a different story. They get a pass because they AREN'T supernatural. What a coincidence. Please, show me the facts and data supporting this belief. Oh noes.

Though you are right - mental creations can be fun. Why else does one believe in a being that created everything that is without responsibility?A story that wouldn't get past the first review in the worst Hollywood review? Fun indeed! :slap:

I don't know why people believe such silliness. I can't see the benefit myself.

Oh wait, you think I believe that kind of silliness, don't you? Oh that's embarrassing for you. Really embarrassing.

Its never a good idea to assume something like that. Funny how simply because I disagree with you I must be some brainwashed fundamentalist. Defensive much? Feel free to backpedal as if you weren't talking about me, though. I know you will.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I would insist gods are not necessarily supernatural because this more accurately represents the diversity of the religious landscape. Pagan god-concepts are frequently immanent. That means they're part of nature, not beyond it or above it or outside of it. Being part of nature kind of means they're not supernatural, dude.
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
I think that Satan is inside all of us in a way... our drive to survive. As far as him being a place we can find him... I do feel that he has a presence that permeates everything, yet is also it's own entity.

But the Universe is big... and I don't think that with thousands of planets with intelligent life (most likely), that God, as an entity, can be everywehre at once. the energy like form of him and that piece of him inside of all of us? Ya, that can. But not the entity form of him.
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
Oh, bull. So long as terms are properly defined, there's absolutely no justification for "call[ing] you on" using a word in a different way.

I think basically what he is saying is that when you take personal context away from the meaning or way in which one is trying to express their God, even if it is coherent, it is limiting to the nature of the way the person may intend the other to perceive it.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Well control what you say a bit better then. Try to keep it within the realm of reality while you are at it. It helps the rest of us understand you. My comment stands. If gods do not exist outside of my mind, then how am I able to read the word right here on my screen which is not in my mind. Or are you suggesting that the monitor I'm looking at is in my mind as well? I really hope so. I really, really hope that is what you are saying.
I think that tempter asserted something different. He asserted that they don't exist outside the mind, not your mind. (But he can correct me, if I'm wrong on that.) So they "don't exist" in the same sense that elves or werewolves "don't exist". Fictional beings are purely imaginary entities, whereas real beings are those that involve a mental construct that corresponds to an entity whose existence does not depend on anyone's imagination.

That's interesting. So a concept that exists solely within the mind (like a god in your opinion) cannot change by way of the very same mind it exists solely within. It's just interpretation at that point. Once the concept is formed, it is static and cannot change any further. This is your position? I think you might want to revise it. Err, wait... reinterpret it... Picking up what I'm laying down yet?
In my view, all concepts exist solely in minds. And none of the things that are real are ever exactly as we imagine them. That is, concepts that correspond to real entities in external reality are always impoverished by the mental models we build up of reality. That doesn't mean that everything we imagine corresponds to an externally real entity.

...As far as reality is concerned... umm... I'm pretty sure you don't believe in gods. So, you know... reality is telling you exactly nothing about gods. Think about it. As far as societal norms is concerned... seriously? You call me brainwashed and then you tell me gods must be supernatural because SOCIETY says so? REALLY?
Yes. That is because language is not just a private thing. Word meanings are determined by usage, not by any particular individual. That said, we all stretch or change word meanings all the time in ordinary conversation. It's just that you need to get others to buy off on the stretches and changes. I think that the concept of gods as supernatural beings is firmly rooted in customary usage. What makes a being a god is the ability to contravene or reconstruct the laws of nature--full power over natural physical reality.

So that I can believe in them. See how that works? I believe in the gods I want to. You believe in the gods you want to. You give them special attributes like 'supernatural' so that you can dismiss them as myth. Isn't that funny how that works the same way for both of us?
Again, I side with tempter on this point. The word "god" means something in the English language. If you want to use "god" to refer to beings without supernatural powers, then you are the one out of line with conventional usage. Society does have a right to pull you back on that one.

By saying gods are supernatural you are pigeonholing them into non-existence. You do this purposefully. It's your magical story. You get to assign the quality of non-existence to gods so that you don't have to believe in them. Now ancient aliens that's a different story. They get a pass because they AREN'T supernatural. What a coincidence. Please, show me the facts and data supporting this belief. Oh noes.
Saying that gods are supernatural beings does not "pigeonhole them into "nonexistence". Most people seem to believe in their probable existence. The existence of deities is a matter of controversy. Us atheists reject belief in them, but we only represent a large minority in the population at large.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
I think that tempter asserted something different. He asserted that they don't exist outside the mind, not your mind. (But he can correct me, if I'm wrong on that.) So they "don't exist" in the same sense that elves or werewolves "don't exist". Fictional beings are purely imaginary entities, whereas real beings are those that involve a mental construct that corresponds to an entity whose existence does not depend on anyone's imagination.

Well, I can't speak for the contents of other people's minds without their revelation of it. I used my mind as an example for this argument because I know what is in it. I understand it isn't about my specific idea of god but about any idea of god. My point is that despite your assertion that these fictional beings are purely imaginary, they do in fact have a lasting effect on reality through the actions of human beings. Thus, they are not purely imaginary or reality would not be affected at all.

In my view, all concepts exist solely in minds. And none of the things that are real are ever exactly as we imagine them. That is, concepts that correspond to real entities in external reality are always impoverished by the mental models we build up of reality. That doesn't mean that everything we imagine corresponds to an externally real entity.

But it does mean that they potentially could correspond to an externally real entity. The lack of accuracy leaves the door wide open for werewolves and elves and gods. We may potentially be imagining something real. Further, considering the mental models of reality that you mention, which do we think and act upon? 'Real' reality or 'conceptual' reality? I assure you it is the second. Thus, imagination trumps reality. There is no better example of this than the religious people in this world. Because they think and act upon their belief it profoundly changes the entire course of the world. Reality is created because of this belief. Imagination becomes reality. Trumps it again and again.

Yes. That is because language is not just a private thing. Word meanings are determined by usage, not by any particular individual. That said, we all stretch or change word meanings all the time in ordinary conversation. It's just that you need to get others to buy off on the stretches and changes. I think that the concept of gods as supernatural beings is firmly rooted in customary usage. What makes a being a god is the ability to contravene or reconstruct the laws of nature--full power over natural physical reality.

I don't know where you live, but here in the USA we are allowed to believe whatever we like about god. This means that regardless of how 'unconventional' your idea of god is it is still correct. That includes defining it as supernatural and not supernatural. Existent or non-existent. Imaginary or non-imaginary. You are correct that most of the time word usage needs to be static in order to effectively communicate with our fellow humans. However, the concept of gods must necessarily be a highly personalized definition.

Again, I side with tempter on this point. The word "god" means something in the English language. If you want to use "god" to refer to beings without supernatural powers, then you are the one out of line with conventional usage. Society does have a right to pull you back on that one.

No they don't have the right to pull me back on that one. I am allowed to believe what I like about gods. WHATEVER I like. I don't care what society says about it. If society had their way we'd all love Jesus and we wouldn't have any other gods to argue about. I don't think you are really advocating that, are you? So why do they get their way on this one attribute? They don't. I get my way. So do you. So does Tempter. Whatever way you want it. That's the right way. Freedom of religion, folks. That's how it works.

Saying that gods are supernatural beings does not "pigeonhole them into "nonexistence". Most people seem to believe in their probable existence. The existence of deities is a matter of controversy. Us atheists reject belief in them, but we only represent a large minority in the population at large.

Remember the personal nature of the god concept. It doesn't pigeonhole them into nonexistence for me. Obviously. It only does it for Tempter. Consider that he believes in ancient gods but just doesn't call them gods because they aren't supernatural. That is the only reason he doesn't call them gods. They could have limitless technological advances that make them 'godlike' in every conceivable way, but since they didn't do it with magic... they aren't gods?

This is akin to the argument I spoke about earlier in the thread. The atheist firmly believed that god must have created the universe or it isn't god. It's just a ridiculous assertion especially from someone who doesn't believe in gods at all.

Finally, I'd like to point out that there is no more evidence for Tempter's ancient alien visitors than there is for any gods. Thus, there is no evidence that they were not supernatural either. They very well could have been. How can we assume anything about them? We can't even assume they are real! This is EXACTLY like every religion on this planet. I don't see how he gets a pass on this one simply because its aliens and not gods. It's the same magical story no matter how you cut it. It is equally conceptual and imaginary as every other story. I don't see any difference.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I must say, there are few things more frustrating to me as a theist than someone saying "oh, you can't define your god-concept that way and call it 'god' because that's not how most people in your culture see it" Yeah, man, way to put down religious minorities. :rolleyes:
 
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