The dishonest use of the name "Christian"

-Peacemaker- · Jun 28, 2012

Holy **** it can't be. Are they actually worshipping the guy they call "Lord"?

Matthew 28:

1Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. 2And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. 3And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4The guards shook for fear of him and became like dead men. 5The angel said to the women, Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified. 6He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying. 7Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead; and behold, He is going ahead of you into Galilee, there you will see Him; behold, I have told you.
8And they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples. 9And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him. 10Then Jesus said to them, Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me.

Shermana · Jun 28, 2012

KingOfTheJungle said:
Your "explanations" are the embodiment of the word "convoluted". It's difficult to even make heads or tales of them.

Feel free to explain in detail why they are convoluted. Do you not think its dishonest to just make a drive by comment without explaining?

If you have trouble understanding what I said, feel free to ask. I think I was pretty clear, but if you're having comprehension issues, I will be glad to explain whatever you're having difficulty understanding that I said. So please, say what you have trouble understanding that I said.

ForeverFaithful · Jun 28, 2012

paarsurrey said:
But as far as I know from Bible Jesus did not claim to be YHWH; he used the word god for himself in the common use of OT that states that even all Israelites are gods etc..; I don't remember the exact quote right now but there is something like that in the OT.

Is it so ?

Can you explain to me why no one in 2000 years, within either the Jews or Christian tradition has had that understanding of God? Why was it lost so rapidly by the church that by second century, and as far as the first century we have a couple passages we can stretch into a bizarre theology which meshes with the rest of the Church's doctirnes?

Shermana · Jun 28, 2012

KingOfTheJungle said:
Holy **** it can't be. Are they actually worshipping the guy they call "Lord"?

Matthew 28:

1Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. 2And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. 3And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4The guards shook for fear of him and became like dead men. 5The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified. 6“He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying. 7“Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead; and behold, He is going ahead of you into Galilee, there you will see Him; behold, I have told you.”
8And they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples. 9And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him. 10Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me.”

David was worshiped too. The commandment is to worship God AND SERVE HIM alone. That word "and" is always so tricky. Angels are "worshiped" as well. Do you know what 'worship" actually means? When John goes to worship the Angel, he stops him only because they are the same rank, prophets.

Otherwise, please explain why John would even worship the Angel in Revelation to begin with? Did he never learn to not worship Angels? Did he have a weak moral lapse all of the sudden?

And thank you for posting the ending of Matthew, it proves that John 20:28 was a later interpolation and doesn't match up.

Shermana · Jun 28, 2012

ForeverFaithful said:
Can you explain to me why no one in 2000 years, within either the Jews or Christian tradition has had that understanding of God? Why was it lost so rapidly by the church that by second century, and as far as the first century we have a couple passages we can stretch into a bizarre theology which meshes with the rest of the Church's doctirnes?

What are you trying to say?

What do you think Jesus meant in John 10:34 and what was the reason for why he said it? Was he being sarcastic?

As for things being "lost so rapidly", perhaps you're unaware, but the NT itself says that heretical doctrines were forming within the first 30 years or so.

As for "The church", there was no "orthodox church" until the end of the 1st century to begin with, and a proto-orthodox church to begin with, with Justin Martyr calling Jesus "The Angel of god". (Yes, the ANGEL of god). Until then it was primarily a matter of Messianic Jews vs. Gnostics. Of which certain Gnostic sects heavily lent to the rise of the proto-orthodox theologies.

-Peacemaker- · Jun 28, 2012

This can't be. Thomas is addressing him as "my Lord and my God". But..but...but.... I thought Jesus only deserved the lower case "L"

John 20

24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, We have seen the Lord!
But he said to them, Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, Peace be with you! 27 Then he said to Thomas, Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.
28 Thomas said to him, My Lord and my God!
29 Then Jesus told him, Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

Shermana · Jun 28, 2012

Scuba Pete said:
That's a rather recent phenomenon. Scriptures never make the claim to be "God's word" or perfect.

Except the "epistles to Timothy" of course.

Alceste · Jun 28, 2012

Reverend Rick said:
Thats cold Alceste. Do you not hold any Christians in high reguard? How do you know when I'm being nice if I am a decent person or just following my religion or maybe even both?

What I meant (and what I tried to say, to the best of my ability) was that if Jesus Christ is your primary inspiration for neighbour-loving behavior, you are a Christian. Otherwise, you are just a decent person. That's not to say Christians can't also be decent, but they can't JUST be decent - there is also an element of trust in Christ and commitment to his philosophy.

ForeverFaithful · Jun 28, 2012

Shermana said:
What are you trying to say?

What do you think Jesus meant in John 10:34 and what was the reason for why he said it? Was he being sarcastic?

As for things being "lost so rapidly", perhaps you're unaware, but the NT itself says that heretical doctrines were forming within the first 30 years or so.

Are we than to be LDSers?

He is quoting from Psalm 82 in context it is poetry not literal, and the next verse clearly shows they were not real gods

"nevertheless, you shall die like men, and fall like any prince" (Ps. 82:7)"

But if it really means, everyone is a god. Why has that never been the "orthodox" view, was their a Dan Brownesque conspiracy where in a cult of monotheists slowly wiped out a quasi-pantheist group of anceint israelites?

Shermana · Jun 28, 2012

KingOfTheJungle said:
This can't be. Thomas is addressing him as "my Lord and my God". But..but...but.... I thought Jesus only deserved the lower case "L"

John 20

24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

1. It could have just been him saying OMG. Which is not actually the sin many think it is.

2. Notice how I said "Thank you for posting the ending of Matthew, it proves that the ending of John doesn't match up". Are you unaware that the endings of Matthew and John clash? Where did the Disciples first meet Jesus?

3. The Lower case would only ever apply even if someone called God himself "Lord". The upper case LORD only applies to the name. You would never say "My LORD". It would be like saying "My SHERMANA". Maybe a girl might say that if she possessed me or something.

I assume you concede on the issue of why John worshiped the Angel to begin with before being told not to simply because he was a fellow prophet.

ForeverFaithful · Jun 28, 2012

Alceste said:
What I meant (and what I tried to say, to the best of my ability) was that if Jesus Christ is your primary inspiration for neighbour-loving behavior, you are a Christian. Otherwise, you are just a decent person. That's not to say Christians can't also be decent, but they can't JUST be decent - there is also an element of trust in Christ and commitment to his philosophy.

No, a Christian is part of Christ's Church, someone who is baptistied in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost,

I'm not a Mormon because I liked what Smith said about Prayer, and I'm not a Muslim because I like Muhammad and abstain from meat, especially if I don't believe in Allah

Alceste · Jun 28, 2012

ForeverFaithful said:
No, a Christian is part of Christ's Church, someone who is baptistied in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost,

I'm not a Mormon because I liked what Smith said about Prayer, and I'm not a Muslim because I like Muhammad and abstain from meat, especially if I don't believe in Allah

Not all Christians believe this, so I'm sorry to tell you your definition is incorrect.

Shermana · Jun 28, 2012

Are we than to be LDSers?

I think they have a lot of things right....it explains all the planets and galaxies...

He is quoting from Psalm 82 in context it is poetry not literal, and the next verse clearly shows they were not real gods

Oh really? How so? Feel free to explain why he even said it in relation to 10:33. It would be quite the non-sequitur in your interpretation. Quite the non-sequitur indeed.

"nevertheless, you shall die like men, and fall like any prince" (Ps. 82:7)"

"Like men" = you are not plain men but you will die "Like" men. Comparing two different things.

But if it really means, everyone is a god.

Not everyone. Just us Israelites.

Why has that never been the "orthodox" view

There's lots of ancient beliefs that have Midrashic support but were dropped by later "orthodox" Jews. If you mean by "orthodox Christians", I don't see why it matters, they were too busy making up all kinds of artificial doctrines.

, was their a Dan Brownesque conspiracy where in a cult of monotheists slowly wiped out a quasi-pantheist group of anceint israelites?

Actually.......that's for another thread. Now replace the word "Quasi Pantheist" with Henotheist. I think you meant to say "Polytheist" btw. Of which Polytheism is quite different. The Trinity is Polytheistic. 3 gods in one?

ForeverFaithful · Jun 28, 2012

Alceste said:
Not all Christians believe this, so I'm sorry to tell you your definition is incorrect.

why does this only apply to Christianity?

Second off it does matter what "some" Christians believe, it matters what the Church believes, as it is the preserver of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, both of whom made it clear that baptism was an important part of becoming a follower of Christ and willingly abstaining from it disqualified you from being one.

Shermana · Jun 28, 2012

No, a Christian is part of Christ's Church, someone who is baptistied in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost,

I don't know if I should get into it in detail here, I suppose it fits the OP, but there's heavy argument that it originally just said "In my name" (as evidenced in Acts) and later the "Formula" was indeed added later, evidenced by its forced-inclusion in the Didache and the "Long form" versions of Ignatius's epistles. Now what makes you think that anyone who is baptized is a member of "The Church"? By your own logic, Mormons are part of "The Church".

I'm not a Mormon because I liked what Smith said about Prayer, and I'm not a Muslim because I like Muhammad and abstain from meat, especially if I don't believe in Allah

What's this about abstainning from meat? Do you mean unclean meats?

-Peacemaker- · Jun 28, 2012

John 21:7

"Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, "It is the Lord!" As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, "It is the Lord," he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water."

"It's the Lord" he says. I think I'm going to change my name to "God" while we're at it.

Me Myself · Jun 28, 2012

ForeverFaithful said:
why does this only apply to Christianity?

Second off it does matter what "some" Christians believe, it matters what the Church believes, as it is the preserver of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, both of whom made it clear that baptism was an important part of becoming a follower of Christ and willingly abstaining from it disqualified you from being one.

The English language has a wider definition of Christianity than yours. It includes yours, and also others:

Christian

Syllabification:OnOff
Pronunciation: /ˈkrisCHən/
adjective
of, relating to, or professing Christianity or its teachings:
the Christian Church
informal having or showing qualities associated with Christians, especially those of decency, kindness, and fairness.
noun
a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

Shermana · Jun 28, 2012

KingOfTheJungle said:
John 21:7

"Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, "It is the Lord!" As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, "It is the Lord," he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water."

"It's the Lord" he says. I think I'm going to change my name to "God" while we're at it.

Thank you for proving that you don't understand the difference between Lord and LORD once again. When I said lower case, did you think I only meant lower case l?

Alceste · Jun 28, 2012

ForeverFaithful said:
why does this only apply to Christianity?

Second off it does matter what "some" Christians believe, it matters what the Church believes, as it is the preserver of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, both of whom made it clear that baptism was an important part of becoming a follower of Christ and willingly abstaining from it disqualified you from being one.

What do you mean "only Christianity"?

The "no true Scotsman" fallacy applies equally to any category of people. To avoid it, you only need to accept that people who call themselves Christian are Christians. As far as I can see, the only thing they all have in common is an interest in and commitment to the philosophy of Jesus Christ.

It's rather silly to claim there is only one "Christian church", with complete authority over the entire religion, don't you think?

Shermana · Jun 28, 2012

. As far as I can see, the only thing they all have in common is an interest in and commitment to the philosophy of Jesus Christ.

This is debatable, how many of them actually go by Jesus's teachings and not some quasi-Pauline theology about "believing in" Jesus?

The dishonest use of the name "Christian"

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