IsmailaGodHasHeard
Well-Known Member
You are wrong. The Bible clearly says that Jesus accepted worship from Thomas.doppelgänger;2592537 said:
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
To make a fair comparison, you should put it this way.
1-The loved one said "My lord and my god" -> exclamation
2-The loved one said to him "My lord and my god" -> meaningless
3-Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" -> Jesus is Thomas' Lord and God
Now anyone with the slightest honesty and knowledge of any language would see the difference between these.
I don't think this is worth discussion any more, unless you get your new objection to that verse.
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doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Wrong about what? I quoted the passage from the Gospel of Thomas, and my statement was about the Gospel of Thomas.
By the way, if you want a scholarly treatment of the interaction between those very two books and their history, I reccommend reading Elaine Pagels' fantastic treatment of the topic: Beyond Belief:The Secret Gospel of Thomas
Amazon.com: Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas (9780375501562): Elaine Pagels: Books
From the Amazon.com official review:
javajo
Well-Known Member
Notice in these verses, God and Jesus are both called Saviour. We have one God, beside whom is no other Saviour. We have God in three persons, God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Both God the Father who is spirit and unseen, and God the Son, Emmanuel (meaning God with us), God in the flesh, who was seen of men, are God.
- 2 Samuel 22:3
The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.
Psalm 106:21
They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt;
Isaiah 43:3
For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 45:15
Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
Isaiah 45:21
...who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Isaiah 49:26
and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isaiah 60:16
...and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
Luke 1:47
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
John 4:42
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
Acts 5:31
Him (Jesus) hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 13:23
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Philippians 3:20
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
1 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
1 Timothy 2:3
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. - 2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Titus 1:3
But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
Titus 1:4
To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. - Titus 2:10
Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 3:4
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Titus 3:6
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. - 2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2 Peter 3:2
That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2 Peter 3:18
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. - 1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. - Jude 1:25
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
But then we have 2 Kings 13:5
And the LORD gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime.
Isaiah 19:20
And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
I don't know about you but it sounds as though your god can be a saviour as well as send saviours....
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
:sad:
javajo
Well-Known Member
While a person can be a saviour, like Moses saved his people from the Egyptians, my verses are in the context of salvation, God/Jesus being the Saviour of all who will believe. I believe many do not want a Saviour because that would make them a sinner in need of a Saviour. Folks don't want to admit they are a sinner or that they cannot do something to save themselves, even though all around the world when asked if they've ever done anything wrong, the reaction is almost always the same, they laugh and say that of course they have. I believe God has written his laws on our hearts, we have a conscience, (with knowledge), so when someone lies, steals, murders, etc., they know they are wrong. When people in any nation turn to God and do right, God forgives them. But I believe it all starts with acknowledging our sin before God of whom we have knowledge by our conscience and the creation. I believe God (Emmanuel, God with us--Jesus) paid our sin debt with his blood and all who trust in him are freely saved. That's my belief.
His point is still valid. There are many instences where there is a servent of god doing great things but we always keep in mind that it is coming from god. So saying someone is bringing salvation doesn't change the fact that it comes from the father. Everyone else is a servent.
Isaiah 42
1 Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will bring justice to the nations.
Isaiah 51
5 My righteousness draws near speedily,
my salvation is on the way,
and my arm will bring justice to the nations.
From "The Divinity of Christ" By: H.H. Pope Shenouda III:
With Respect to Him Being Omnipresent
(A) God Is the One Who Is Present Everywhere
(1) To be present everywhere is a quality which belongs
to God alone. David the Prophet said to God: "Where can
I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your
presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there, if I
make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. If I take the
wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of
the sea, even there Your hand shall lead me, and Your
right hand shall hold me" (Ps. 139:7-10).
(2) There is no doubt that the Being who is present
everywhere is Infinite. God alone is Infinite and
consequently the quality of being everywhere belongs to
Him alone because there is no Infinite Being besides Him.
God is in heaven and at the same time He is on earth,
because heaven is His throne and earth His footstool
(Matt. 34:35); (Is .66:1). His presence in places of worship
is but a type of His general presence everywhere. Thus
Solomon the Sage said at the consecration of the temple:
"Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot
contain You. How much less this temple which I have
built!" (1 Kin. 8:27)
(3) No Being other than God can be present everywhere,
otherwise he will be infinite and this quality belongs to
God alone. If we prove that Christ is present everywhere,
then we will have proved that He is God.
(B) The Lord Jesus Christ Is Present Everywhere
(1) Christ gives those who believe in Him a promise which
none but God can give. He says to His believers: "For
where two or three are gathered together in My name, I
am there in the midst of them" (Matt. 18:20). This means
that the Lord Jesus Christ is present everywhere on earth
because the Church spread and reached the ends of the
earth. Imagine a Sunday, for example, and all the
Christians in the whole world gathering together in the
name of Christ to pray in their churches, and Christ
amidst each gathering. Does this not mean that He is
present everywhere on earth?
(2) While Christ is present everywhere on earth, He is
also in heaven because He ascended to heaven, as the
Apostles saw Him (Acts 1:9), and He is at the right hand
of the Father, as St. Stephen saw Him (Acts 7:56).
(3) Christ is also in Paradise with those who departed this
world. The proof of this are the Lord's words to the
Penitent Thief. "Today, you will be with Me in Paradise"
(Lk. 23:43), and the words of St. Paul the Apostle:
"having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far
better" (Phil. 1:23). This is an indication that those who
depart this earth are with Christ in Paradise, while He is
also with the Militant faithful on earth.
(4) Christ's discourse that He is in heaven and on earth
and in Paradise is pursuant to His promise to the Church:
"And lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age"
(Matt. 28:20).
(5) The Lord Jesus Christ declared this fact in His
discourse with Nicodemus, when He said: "No one has
ascended to heaven but He who came down from
heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven" (Jn.
3:13). This means that Christ was in heaven while He
was on earth speaking with Nicodemus.
(6) The Lord Jesus Christ is not only on earth wherever
two or three gather together in His name, but He is also in
the heart of every faithful who loves Him. He says: "If
anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father
will love Him, and We will come to Him and make Our
home with him" (Jn. 14:23). This means that every person
who loves God is a house for Christ. The Lord Jesus
Christ comes into his heart, and dwells with him wherever
he stays and wherever he goes. That is why St. Paul the
Apostle was able to say: "It is no longer I who live, but
Christ lives in me" (Gal. 2:20).
(7) Christ the Lord is not only present where the righteous
and saintly are, but He is also in the places where the
wicked have strayed. He is seeking for them, visiting
them and knocking at the door of their hearts. Thus He
says: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone
hears My voice and opens the door, I will come into him
and dine with him, and he with Me" (Rev. 3:20).
(C) Conclusion: Christ Is God
From what we have said it is proved that Christ the Lord
is Infinite and is present everywhere: in heaven and
Paradise and at the same time on earth; in the places of
worship, in the gatherings of the believers and in the
hearts of those who love Him. He also knocks at the door
of the hearts of the lost and of those who have strayed
from His commandments. He moves with every person
wherever they go and is with them when they settle. He is
with the living and also with the departed. All these can
only apply to one Being, that is, God.
With Respect to Him Being Omnipresent
(A) God Is the One Who Is Present Everywhere
(1) To be present everywhere is a quality which belongs
to God alone. David the Prophet said to God: "Where can
I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your
presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there, if I
make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. If I take the
wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of
the sea, even there Your hand shall lead me, and Your
right hand shall hold me" (Ps. 139:7-10).
(2) There is no doubt that the Being who is present
everywhere is Infinite. God alone is Infinite and
consequently the quality of being everywhere belongs to
Him alone because there is no Infinite Being besides Him.
God is in heaven and at the same time He is on earth,
because heaven is His throne and earth His footstool
(Matt. 34:35); (Is .66:1). His presence in places of worship
is but a type of His general presence everywhere. Thus
Solomon the Sage said at the consecration of the temple:
"Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot
contain You. How much less this temple which I have
built!" (1 Kin. 8:27)
(3) No Being other than God can be present everywhere,
otherwise he will be infinite and this quality belongs to
God alone. If we prove that Christ is present everywhere,
then we will have proved that He is God.
(B) The Lord Jesus Christ Is Present Everywhere
(1) Christ gives those who believe in Him a promise which
none but God can give. He says to His believers: "For
where two or three are gathered together in My name, I
am there in the midst of them" (Matt. 18:20). This means
that the Lord Jesus Christ is present everywhere on earth
because the Church spread and reached the ends of the
earth. Imagine a Sunday, for example, and all the
Christians in the whole world gathering together in the
name of Christ to pray in their churches, and Christ
amidst each gathering. Does this not mean that He is
present everywhere on earth?
(2) While Christ is present everywhere on earth, He is
also in heaven because He ascended to heaven, as the
Apostles saw Him (Acts 1:9), and He is at the right hand
of the Father, as St. Stephen saw Him (Acts 7:56).
(3) Christ is also in Paradise with those who departed this
world. The proof of this are the Lord's words to the
Penitent Thief. "Today, you will be with Me in Paradise"
(Lk. 23:43), and the words of St. Paul the Apostle:
"having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far
better" (Phil. 1:23). This is an indication that those who
depart this earth are with Christ in Paradise, while He is
also with the Militant faithful on earth.
(4) Christ's discourse that He is in heaven and on earth
and in Paradise is pursuant to His promise to the Church:
"And lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age"
(Matt. 28:20).
(5) The Lord Jesus Christ declared this fact in His
discourse with Nicodemus, when He said: "No one has
ascended to heaven but He who came down from
heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven" (Jn.
3:13). This means that Christ was in heaven while He
was on earth speaking with Nicodemus.
(6) The Lord Jesus Christ is not only on earth wherever
two or three gather together in His name, but He is also in
the heart of every faithful who loves Him. He says: "If
anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father
will love Him, and We will come to Him and make Our
home with him" (Jn. 14:23). This means that every person
who loves God is a house for Christ. The Lord Jesus
Christ comes into his heart, and dwells with him wherever
he stays and wherever he goes. That is why St. Paul the
Apostle was able to say: "It is no longer I who live, but
Christ lives in me" (Gal. 2:20).
(7) Christ the Lord is not only present where the righteous
and saintly are, but He is also in the places where the
wicked have strayed. He is seeking for them, visiting
them and knocking at the door of their hearts. Thus He
says: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone
hears My voice and opens the door, I will come into him
and dine with him, and he with Me" (Rev. 3:20).
(C) Conclusion: Christ Is God
From what we have said it is proved that Christ the Lord
is Infinite and is present everywhere: in heaven and
Paradise and at the same time on earth; in the places of
worship, in the gatherings of the believers and in the
hearts of those who love Him. He also knocks at the door
of the hearts of the lost and of those who have strayed
from His commandments. He moves with every person
wherever they go and is with them when they settle. He is
with the living and also with the departed. All these can
only apply to one Being, that is, God.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Except that in 1John 4:14 it says that "God sent the son to be the saviour"
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
This should tell you right here they didn't think Yeshua to be "God" rather their god sent him. Not (God came to us to save us). Actually the context of 1John 4 is speaking of two separate entities, not one.
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So the Son is the Saviour.
But virgin Mary says:
(Luke 1:46-47 [NIV])
And Mary said: "My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
So Jesus is God.
More on that:
From "The Divinity of Christ" By: H.H. Pope Shenouda III:
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/divinity_of_christ_pope_shenouda.pdf
With Respect to Him Being the Savior and the Redeemer
This proof involves four main points:
A. God alone redeems and saves the human
race
B. The theological basis of this fact
C. Christ alone is the Redeemer and Savior of
the world
D. Conclusion: Christ is God.
(A) God Alone Redeems and Saves the Human Race
The Holy Bible explicitly testifies to this. It is written in the
Book of Psalms: "None of them can by any means
redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him...
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave"
(Ps. 49:7,15). David the Prophet repeats the same
meaning when he says: "Bless the Lord, O my soul, bless
His holy name! ... who forgives all your iniquities... who
redeems your life from destruction" (Ps. 103:1-4). And the
Book of Isaiah the Prophet confirms this matter in more
than one testimony. It is written: "Thus says the Lord, the
King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am
the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God "
(Is. 44:6). Therefore the Redeemer is This One God who
is the Lord of hosts who is the First and the
Last. Isaiah the Prophet repeats the same thing and says:
"As for our Redeemer, the Lord of hosts is His name, the
Holy One of Israel" (Is. 47:4) and: "Thus says the Lord,
your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel 'I am the Lord
your God"' (Is. 48:17). And God says: "For I, the Lord
your God, will hold your right hand..' says the LORD and
your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel" (Is. 41:13,14).
The Virgin Mary attributed salvation to God and said: "My
soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God
my Savior" (Lk. 1:46). St. Paul the Apostle said: "God our
Savior" (Titus 2: 10), and: "The kindness and the love of
God our Savior toward man appeared' (Titus 3:4). And
Jude the Apostle concludes his Epistle with the same
testimony, saying: "Now to Him who is able to keep you
from stumbling and to present you faultless before the
presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to God our
Savior who alone is wise, be glory and majesty, dominion
and power, both now and forever. Amen" (Jude 24,25).
Salvation is attributed to God alone, as is explicitly stated
by God Himself. "And you shall know no God but Me, for
there is no Savior besides me" (Hos. 13:4); "Have not I,
the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, a just
God and a Savior, there is none besides Me" (Is. 45:2 1),
and: "I, the Lord, am your Savior, and your Redeemer,
the Mighty One of Jacob" (Is. 49:26); (Is. 60:16).
(B) The Theological Basis of this Fact
(1) The sin in which the first man fell and in which every
man falls is a sin against God because it is disobedience
to God, and lack of love and respect towards Him. But
rather it is rebellion against His kingdom and resistance to
the work of His grace and His Holy Spirit, as well as being
a lack of faith. That is why David the Prophet says in his
Psalm: "Against You, You only, have I sinned, and done
this evil in Your sight" (Ps. 51:4). That is why the
righteous Joseph withheld from sinning, saying: "How
then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against
God?" (Gen. 39:9)
(2) All human beings sinned: "They have all turned aside,
they have together become corrupt, there is none who
does good, no, not one" (Ps. 14:3). The wages of sin is
death (Rom. 6:23), and "thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned' (Rom. 5:12).
(3) Because sin is against God and since God is infinite,
then sin is infinite and its punishment is infinite. Should it
be redeemed, it must be by an infinite atonement,
sufficient for the forgiveness of all the people of all
generations to the end of the ages.
(4) Only God is Infinite. Therefore He Himself had to take
flesh and become the Son of Man in order to replace man
and "to be the propitiation for the whole world' (1 Jn. 2:2).
(5) This propitiation was effected by the Lord Jesus Christ
to save the whole world. If He were not God, His
propitiation would be utterly invalid because His
propitiation derived its infinity from Him being Infinite
God, of whom the Apostle said: "In Him dwells all the
fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9).
(C) Christ Is the Only Savior and Redeemer of the
World
At the Annunciation, the angel said that Christ the Lord
would be called Jesus, "for He will save His people from
their sins" (Matt. 1:2 1). Yet His salvation was not for His
own people only, for He said: "I did not come to judge the
world but to save the world' (Jn. 12:47). And it was said of
Him: "This is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world'
(Jn. 4:42). And He said of Himself that He "has come to
save that which was lost" (Matt. 18:11), and the whole
world was under the penalty of death.
Christ came to save mankind from sins. It is written that
"He will save His people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21). St.
Paul the Apostle said: "Christ Jesus came into the world
to save sinners, of whom I am chief" (I Tim. 1: 15), that
He "gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from
every lawless deed" (Titus 2:14), and that He "has
redeemed us from the curse of the law" (Gal. 3:13).
Christ offered a complete and everlasting salvation.
St. Paul the Apostle said that Christ, the High Priest, "is
also able to save to the uttermost" (Heb. 7:25) and that
"He became the Author of eternal salvation to all who
obey Him" (Heb. 5:9). That is why the Apostle wondered,
saying: "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a
salvation!" (Heb. 2:3)
Therefore, to sum up, Christ came a Redeemer and a
Savior and a Propitiator to save all the people of the world
from their sins, and to redeem them from all their
iniquities and from the curse of the Law. He offered an
everlasting salvation to the uttermost.
Christ Alone Is the Savior
St. Peter the Apostle said: "For there is no other name
under heaven given among men by which we must be
saved' (Acts 4:12).
(D) Conclusion: Christ Is God
(i) As we mentioned before, the salvation of the world
from sins needed an infinite propitiation and none is
Infinite except God alone. Since the Lord Jesus Christ
offered the propitiation and completed it to the uttermost
and redeemed all the people from every iniquity, saving
them eternally from the curse of the Law, therefore, He is
Infinite and thence He is God.
The act of redemption is an excellent proof confirming
that Christ is God because if He were not so, the
redemption would not have been considered valid and
would not have been sufficient for the salvation of the
whole world from all their sins.
(ii) God says: "'You shall know no God but Me; for there
is no Savior besides Me" (Hos. 13:4), and: "there is no
other God besides Me, a just God and a Savior, there is
none besides Me" (Is. 45:21). And it has been proved that
there is a Savior who is Christ Jesus who is the only
Savior and that there is no other name under heaven
given among men by which we must be saved (Acts
4:12). How can we make all these verses conform with
each other? Is, God not true or is the Holy Bible not true?
Far from it. Let God be true. God cannot be true unless
God is Christ so that if we say that God is the Savior, we
mean at the same time that Christ is the Savior.
(iii) If Christ were not God, and having sacrificed Himself
for the sake of all people because of His love for them,
does He love people more than God does? Is there any
being who surpasses God in His love to mankind? Not
even Jehovah's Witnesses can say such a thing.
(iv) If Christ were other than God, and He was compelled
to complete the work of redemption for the mere
obedience of a command, then redemption would have
lost its most important principle, and in addition, it would
contradict the words of the Lord Jesus Christ: "Greater
love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for
his friends" (Jn. 15:13). And this also would disagree with
the Holy Bible which says that Christ "gave Himself up for
us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed'
(Titus 2:14).
(v) If Christ were other than God, and God commissioned
Him to undertake this deed because of God's love to the
world according to the verse: "For God so loved the world
that He gave His Only Begotten Son" (Jn. 3:16), does this
mean that God loved the world at the expense of
Another? No, never! This verse cannot be
properly understood unless God and Christ are One, as
the Lord Jesus said: "I and My Father are One" (Jn.
10:30). Thus we understand that God redeemed the
people Himself, accomplishing the words of the Holy
Book: "None of them can by any means redeem his
brother, nor give to God a ransom for him... But God will
redeem my soul from the power of the grave" (Ps.
49:7,15). Then the words of St. Paul the Apostle:
"because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior Of
all men" (1 Tim. 4:10), will be true.
(vi) If Christ were other than God, then people would not
be wrong when they worship Him and not God, because
He created them from nothing, according to the Bible's
words: "All things were made through Him and without
Him nothing was made that was made" (Jn. 1:3,10).
Jehovah's Witnesses profess that Christ is the Creator
and that He bought them with His precious Blood, and
purified them for Himself as His own special people (1
Pet. 1: 8); (Titus 2:14). Who can blame a nation who
worship their own Creator and Savior?
(vii) We adhere to the belief that Christ is God, not only
because it is the fundamental proof of completing the
work of redemption, but also because it is an affirmation
of God's words: "I will ransom them from the power of the
grave, I will redeem them from death" (Hos. 13:14). God
attributed to Himself this deed which He carried out. So
let God be true. And let Christ's words. "I and My
Father are One" (Jn. 10: 30), be true.
From "The Divinity of Christ" By: H.H. Pope Shenouda III:
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/divinity_of_christ_pope_shenouda.pdf
With Respect to Him Being the Savior and the Redeemer
This proof involves four main points:
A. God alone redeems and saves the human
race
B. The theological basis of this fact
C. Christ alone is the Redeemer and Savior of
the world
D. Conclusion: Christ is God.
(A) God Alone Redeems and Saves the Human Race
The Holy Bible explicitly testifies to this. It is written in the
Book of Psalms: "None of them can by any means
redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him...
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave"
(Ps. 49:7,15). David the Prophet repeats the same
meaning when he says: "Bless the Lord, O my soul, bless
His holy name! ... who forgives all your iniquities... who
redeems your life from destruction" (Ps. 103:1-4). And the
Book of Isaiah the Prophet confirms this matter in more
than one testimony. It is written: "Thus says the Lord, the
King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am
the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God "
(Is. 44:6). Therefore the Redeemer is This One God who
is the Lord of hosts who is the First and the
Last. Isaiah the Prophet repeats the same thing and says:
"As for our Redeemer, the Lord of hosts is His name, the
Holy One of Israel" (Is. 47:4) and: "Thus says the Lord,
your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel 'I am the Lord
your God"' (Is. 48:17). And God says: "For I, the Lord
your God, will hold your right hand..' says the LORD and
your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel" (Is. 41:13,14).
The Virgin Mary attributed salvation to God and said: "My
soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God
my Savior" (Lk. 1:46). St. Paul the Apostle said: "God our
Savior" (Titus 2: 10), and: "The kindness and the love of
God our Savior toward man appeared' (Titus 3:4). And
Jude the Apostle concludes his Epistle with the same
testimony, saying: "Now to Him who is able to keep you
from stumbling and to present you faultless before the
presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to God our
Savior who alone is wise, be glory and majesty, dominion
and power, both now and forever. Amen" (Jude 24,25).
Salvation is attributed to God alone, as is explicitly stated
by God Himself. "And you shall know no God but Me, for
there is no Savior besides me" (Hos. 13:4); "Have not I,
the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, a just
God and a Savior, there is none besides Me" (Is. 45:2 1),
and: "I, the Lord, am your Savior, and your Redeemer,
the Mighty One of Jacob" (Is. 49:26); (Is. 60:16).
(B) The Theological Basis of this Fact
(1) The sin in which the first man fell and in which every
man falls is a sin against God because it is disobedience
to God, and lack of love and respect towards Him. But
rather it is rebellion against His kingdom and resistance to
the work of His grace and His Holy Spirit, as well as being
a lack of faith. That is why David the Prophet says in his
Psalm: "Against You, You only, have I sinned, and done
this evil in Your sight" (Ps. 51:4). That is why the
righteous Joseph withheld from sinning, saying: "How
then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against
God?" (Gen. 39:9)
(2) All human beings sinned: "They have all turned aside,
they have together become corrupt, there is none who
does good, no, not one" (Ps. 14:3). The wages of sin is
death (Rom. 6:23), and "thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned' (Rom. 5:12).
(3) Because sin is against God and since God is infinite,
then sin is infinite and its punishment is infinite. Should it
be redeemed, it must be by an infinite atonement,
sufficient for the forgiveness of all the people of all
generations to the end of the ages.
(4) Only God is Infinite. Therefore He Himself had to take
flesh and become the Son of Man in order to replace man
and "to be the propitiation for the whole world' (1 Jn. 2:2).
(5) This propitiation was effected by the Lord Jesus Christ
to save the whole world. If He were not God, His
propitiation would be utterly invalid because His
propitiation derived its infinity from Him being Infinite
God, of whom the Apostle said: "In Him dwells all the
fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9).
(C) Christ Is the Only Savior and Redeemer of the
World
At the Annunciation, the angel said that Christ the Lord
would be called Jesus, "for He will save His people from
their sins" (Matt. 1:2 1). Yet His salvation was not for His
own people only, for He said: "I did not come to judge the
world but to save the world' (Jn. 12:47). And it was said of
Him: "This is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world'
(Jn. 4:42). And He said of Himself that He "has come to
save that which was lost" (Matt. 18:11), and the whole
world was under the penalty of death.
Christ came to save mankind from sins. It is written that
"He will save His people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21). St.
Paul the Apostle said: "Christ Jesus came into the world
to save sinners, of whom I am chief" (I Tim. 1: 15), that
He "gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from
every lawless deed" (Titus 2:14), and that He "has
redeemed us from the curse of the law" (Gal. 3:13).
Christ offered a complete and everlasting salvation.
St. Paul the Apostle said that Christ, the High Priest, "is
also able to save to the uttermost" (Heb. 7:25) and that
"He became the Author of eternal salvation to all who
obey Him" (Heb. 5:9). That is why the Apostle wondered,
saying: "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a
salvation!" (Heb. 2:3)
Therefore, to sum up, Christ came a Redeemer and a
Savior and a Propitiator to save all the people of the world
from their sins, and to redeem them from all their
iniquities and from the curse of the Law. He offered an
everlasting salvation to the uttermost.
Christ Alone Is the Savior
St. Peter the Apostle said: "For there is no other name
under heaven given among men by which we must be
saved' (Acts 4:12).
(D) Conclusion: Christ Is God
(i) As we mentioned before, the salvation of the world
from sins needed an infinite propitiation and none is
Infinite except God alone. Since the Lord Jesus Christ
offered the propitiation and completed it to the uttermost
and redeemed all the people from every iniquity, saving
them eternally from the curse of the Law, therefore, He is
Infinite and thence He is God.
The act of redemption is an excellent proof confirming
that Christ is God because if He were not so, the
redemption would not have been considered valid and
would not have been sufficient for the salvation of the
whole world from all their sins.
(ii) God says: "'You shall know no God but Me; for there
is no Savior besides Me" (Hos. 13:4), and: "there is no
other God besides Me, a just God and a Savior, there is
none besides Me" (Is. 45:21). And it has been proved that
there is a Savior who is Christ Jesus who is the only
Savior and that there is no other name under heaven
given among men by which we must be saved (Acts
4:12). How can we make all these verses conform with
each other? Is, God not true or is the Holy Bible not true?
Far from it. Let God be true. God cannot be true unless
God is Christ so that if we say that God is the Savior, we
mean at the same time that Christ is the Savior.
(iii) If Christ were not God, and having sacrificed Himself
for the sake of all people because of His love for them,
does He love people more than God does? Is there any
being who surpasses God in His love to mankind? Not
even Jehovah's Witnesses can say such a thing.
(iv) If Christ were other than God, and He was compelled
to complete the work of redemption for the mere
obedience of a command, then redemption would have
lost its most important principle, and in addition, it would
contradict the words of the Lord Jesus Christ: "Greater
love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for
his friends" (Jn. 15:13). And this also would disagree with
the Holy Bible which says that Christ "gave Himself up for
us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed'
(Titus 2:14).
(v) If Christ were other than God, and God commissioned
Him to undertake this deed because of God's love to the
world according to the verse: "For God so loved the world
that He gave His Only Begotten Son" (Jn. 3:16), does this
mean that God loved the world at the expense of
Another? No, never! This verse cannot be
properly understood unless God and Christ are One, as
the Lord Jesus said: "I and My Father are One" (Jn.
10:30). Thus we understand that God redeemed the
people Himself, accomplishing the words of the Holy
Book: "None of them can by any means redeem his
brother, nor give to God a ransom for him... But God will
redeem my soul from the power of the grave" (Ps.
49:7,15). Then the words of St. Paul the Apostle:
"because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior Of
all men" (1 Tim. 4:10), will be true.
(vi) If Christ were other than God, then people would not
be wrong when they worship Him and not God, because
He created them from nothing, according to the Bible's
words: "All things were made through Him and without
Him nothing was made that was made" (Jn. 1:3,10).
Jehovah's Witnesses profess that Christ is the Creator
and that He bought them with His precious Blood, and
purified them for Himself as His own special people (1
Pet. 1: 8); (Titus 2:14). Who can blame a nation who
worship their own Creator and Savior?
(vii) We adhere to the belief that Christ is God, not only
because it is the fundamental proof of completing the
work of redemption, but also because it is an affirmation
of God's words: "I will ransom them from the power of the
grave, I will redeem them from death" (Hos. 13:14). God
attributed to Himself this deed which He carried out. So
let God be true. And let Christ's words. "I and My
Father are One" (Jn. 10: 30), be true.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
This is desperate...even for you I see. Mary was talking about "YHWH" (See old testament for saviour). This is totally different than what 1 John 4:14 was talking about.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Desperate!
Thanks for the laughs.
Who are you to say that it is totally different? What proof have you got?
Have a look at this:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2597910-post4192.html
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
No. Thank you. :biglaugh:
I tried this with you already. I posted a commentary and your countered with commentary. They canceled each other out which is why I'm only posting from your scripture and nowhere in your scripture does Yeshua "say he is God"....He says the exact opposite....
I see that's what you're left with.
No, they didn't. I gave a lot of scriptural and linguistic proofs. The only thing you could give was that commentary, when I showed you that I could give commentaries too.
As far as I could remember it was "ana" and "meson" when you couldn't tell which is which.
The part that I posted from the book "Divinity of Christ" isn't a commentary, it's a collection of tens of verses from the bible.
I gave a lot of proofs so far that Jesus said He is God. Those who don't want to believe would never believe, whatever is don't for them.
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Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I know the difference which is why I posted what I posted. You held to your interpretation but completely missed the context of the surrounding verses.
Commentary/interpretation....(tomato/tomato). While you've taken the liberty to post it just know there are works out there that say the opposite of what yours asserts such as the works of (Victor P. Wierwille, Jesus Christ is not God) and Brian Holt, in his comparison book (can't remember the whole title now) does a decent comparison of the arguments from both sides. There's another one out there by a Catholic Priest, Peter Dresser, called "Jesus was not God"....admittedly, I haven't read that one yet......but to hear a Catholic to finally speak the truth about their scriptures sounds like an interesting read.
There is no "proof" he uttered that. You have verses here and there that you've interpreted to suggest he implicitly said he was...I have presented a multitude of verses that explicitly show he isn't.
I know....for some reason you think you've explained Yeshua saying (X) because he was ("man")...but then again...there are plenty where Yeshua says he (existed in heaven with his god), (his god taught him what he should say) once he came to Earth. So not a man in a physical body in heaven. Shucks 1John 4:14 shows us there's two separate entities being spoken of.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Just refer to that post, you'll see you mistook one word for the other.
One can read different views and judge, that's why we have minds.
The verse you quoted doesn't show that they are separate entires.
I can send my ideas anywhere yet they are still in my brain.
God sent His Word in flesh. But still the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Psalm 104:30
When you send your Spirit,
they are created,
and you renew the face of the ground.
Joel 2:28
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Does this mean God will be separated from His Spirit?
Definitely no.
Besides I've already showed the Jesus is omnipresent in a previous post.
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Yes, God sends forth His spirit according to Psalm 104v30.
According to Numbers [11v16,17,25], God puts 'it' [His spirit] where he wants.
Paul wrote [Romans 8vs16,26] about God's spirit: 'itself'
God nor Jesus are never referred to as 'it or 'itself' as God's spirit is.
If Jesus is omnipresent then how do you explain 1st Kings [8vs30,39]
when there is an established place of dwelling ?
Rev [4v1] shows a door was opened at a specific location: heaven.
The pervasive far-reaching effect of holy spirit [Psalm 139vs7-10] is like the sun's rays from a specific location covering a vast portion of earth.
As usual: Useless.
Not my question. Read the post well before trying to reply.
Besides there was a question that I asked you a couple of pages ago and you didn't answer.