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What Was Jesus Really Saying?
- Thread starter lunamoth
- Start date
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Jesus is one of a long, never-ending string of Divine Messengers sent by God to renew religion and update humanity's social laws.
As has happened to too many of Them, He was largely ignored and ultimately put to death.
Ideally, humanity will someday learn to pay greater attention and respect to these individuals.
Peace,
Bruce
As has happened to too many of Them, He was largely ignored and ultimately put to death.
Ideally, humanity will someday learn to pay greater attention and respect to these individuals.
Peace,
Bruce
lunamoth
Will to love
What do you think he was saying, Bruce?Jesus is one of a long, never-ending string of Divine Messengers sent by God to renew religion and update humanity's social laws.
As has happened to too many of Them, He was largely ignored and ultimately put to death.
Ideally, humanity will someday learn to pay greater attention and respect to these individuals.
Peace,
Bruce
lunamoth
Will to love
True. I picked it up from another thread (can't even remember which one, now). Rise to the challenge, Soj! What do you think was the main thing he was saying?
The Sum of Awe
Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
I, personally, think that Jesus was trying to form a type of political philosophy, a form of Conservative Theocracy.
lunamoth
Will to love
Interesting. Much of what he said seems to me to be more in line with an End-of-the-World cult, not into long-range planning.
blackout
Violet.
I have no idea if there even was such a man, who "said" anything,
however,
the words attributed to the character of Jesus,
that resonate most with me are,
'Now',
'Within',
and 'In Your Midst'.
also,
'You can do even greater things' (than these).
'You can move mountains' (and the like).
It is my viewpoint
that most of "The Christ" teachings,
have to do with
our Becoming Christs,
or
Us, embracing Our Own Christhood.
This of course is not a mainstream take,
but is my own.
however,
the words attributed to the character of Jesus,
that resonate most with me are,
'Now',
'Within',
and 'In Your Midst'.
also,
'You can do even greater things' (than these).
'You can move mountains' (and the like).
It is my viewpoint
that most of "The Christ" teachings,
have to do with
our Becoming Christs,
or
Us, embracing Our Own Christhood.
This of course is not a mainstream take,
but is my own.
lunamoth
Will to love
I like this, UV. :yes:
Dead Brilliant!!!!! *jazz claps*
The other thing or perhaps as part of the above message, I think Jesus was saying in speaking with Pharisees and Sadducees about the Law, and all the Laws/Norms/Mores that Jesus "broke" was put in the spot light the REASON or the HEART and CORE of practicing the Law in the first place.
And by embracing our 'Christhood' we're able to know the answers to the questions, for instance, the ones presented in the 'Three Questions' Tolstoy parable:
One of my favourite bits of theology is 'Theosis' a key philosophy/approach in the Orthodox Church and to me makes complete and utter sense..... to me, take care of this and the rest is just details that take care of themselves.
From my own birth branch of Christianity, Methodism, there is John Wesley's: Christian perfection which is outlined more closely in Wesleyan Arminianism.
(For a touch of Irony. I'm an American/Methodist by baptism, living in Canada, going to an Anglican Church, which in some ways mirrors/adapts Orthodox theologies. Sorry John
)Knowing why or our intention in action is fundamental, imo.
:namaste
SageTree
Last edited:
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Among other things, He taught love and clarified certain teachings from Judaism (in the Sermon on the Mount) as well as abrogating various other laws and practices.
Peace,
Bruce
Wombat
Active Member
Agreement and gratitude....except....perhaps, having not taken enough "care"...am still waiting for the "details to take care of themselves".
Thanks for the reminder.
Perhaps you are familiar-
http://www.bahaindex.com/documents/tolstoy.pdf
That's how I view it.
There seems to be a fairly substantial set of similarities between Jesus and the Essenes.
Agreement and gratitude....except....perhaps, having not taken enough "care"...am still waiting for the "details to take care of themselves".
Ah... I don't know man.... them 'taking care of themselves' does certainly entail a little work or rather letting go/acceptance on your own behalf as well
Like the Buddha said: "Practice is like a stringed instrument.
Too tight or too loose, it won't make the desired sound."
And perhaps in this case, it's not getting your instrument 'in tune' as much as accepting that that is JUST the sound it makes sometimes and when you own that, you can still strum with the intention of playing with the group.
Know what I mean?
I am not, thanks for sharing my Friend.
:namaste
SageTree
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
The first problem you have with this question is that there were a lot of writers writing stories in which Jesus is given lines of things to say. It is quite possible that each writer has a completely different idea of what they either think Jesus said (if they were meant as historical/biographical stories) or wanted their "Jesus" character to say (if they were meant as metaphorical fiction) or a combination of the two as writers chose to emphasize those sayings passed along that worked better with their vision of the character they were writing about. That would be the case even with someone believing they were just writing a history - especially if the sayings were condensed down, selected out or altered before they filtered down to the author of the story.
And then there's a whole new level of problem when you next have to consider what each reader comes to each text wanting "Jesus" to say . . . .
And then there's a whole new level of problem when you next have to consider what each reader comes to each text wanting "Jesus" to say . . . .
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
It's a problem if someone answers that this is what "Jesus was really saying" and doesn't recognize what's going in intellectually when they make that decision. At best it's "what I think someone else meant when the wrote down things attributed to Jesus" and if that answer is intellectually honest, there would be as many answers as there are authors attributing things to "Jesus."
lunamoth
Will to love
doppelgänger;2485497 said:
I understand your point, and that is a helpful addition to the discussion. I would expect as many different answers as people replying, which is why it is interesting. I know that historians and scholars each bring their own interpretation to jesus' words, and each individual finds different meanings, often even changing meanings as they go through life.
Maybe the sticking point is the word 'really' in the title and op. I picked up the question from another Poster in a different thread (can't remember which one) and thought it was interesting. I would not phrase the question that way normally.
elmarna
Well-Known Member
in all that is understood of jesus I can say most can tell you of his deeds. Where are the wisdoms that had him thinking & acting uopn? there are interpretations,but no real words of wisdoms devulged. i am as mystified as you. Even his feelings seemed to be removed. i do believe he was very wise & a great teacher!
It seems that many of the posters on the forum so far agree that Jesus was one of many great teachers, a very wise one at that, shall I dare to venture that you would say he was a moral teacher also. Several also mention that he taught love, etc. So sum it up to say you think he was a great teacher of virtue/morals (loosely defined).
First, ask the question, what was Jesus coming to address or do?
His first public words were:
Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matthew 4:17)
In Mark 2, he says: I came not to call the righteous but sinners.
In the Old Testament, God had given the Israelites his Law. Its purpose was to constantly remind man that he is evil, alienated from God. To reinforce this, animal sacrifices were put in place. Sin deserved death. So if someone sinned, he had to offer a sacrifice to take the punishment. God promised that he would eventually completely remove their sin, which was an offense to his holiness. The law was a reflection of Gods character. Sin was against God. To be in right relationship with God, one had to be righteous (that is, perfect, not sinful).
So then Jesus says in Matthew 5, beginning in verse 17--
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them......unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
So the law is there. It is the standard. Man is failing. The scribes/pharisees who tried to obey the law strictly and thus were trying to earn salvation were failing.
So what does God do?
John 3:16 (yeah, youve probably heard this before) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes on him should not perish but have eternal life.
Why does believing in him help?
In Luke 9, he says: The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.
He explains this further:
For the Son of Man himself did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many'(Mark 10:45)
Drink all of you from this', he said. 'For this is my blood, the blood of the covenant, which is to be poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:28)
Ok. Now why was Jesus so special? Was he really one of many prophets or just a good moral teacher? What qualified him to take the punishment of other men and rise from the dead when others could not?
Well, who was he? Lets look at what he says.
He claims to God the Son, equal with God the Father.
Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Mark 14:61 Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me."
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
So Jesus claims to be God. There are three options here. Before I state them, I must say emphatically the one thing he cannot be is just a good man. He claimed to be God. Weve got three options: Liar, Lunatic, or God.
1. Lunatic. If youve read any of the gospel narratives, it is pretty much impossible to hold the position that Jesus was insane. The things he says could not have been said by a mad man. Also, no one around him thought he was insane. His air of authority astonished people. His compassion was unmatched, etc.
2. Liar. If his claim to divinity were a lie then he can hardly be deemed a great teacher. If Jesus set out to systematically deceive people about who he was and how their sins were to be dealt with, then he was among the worst teachers that have ever walked the earth.
You see, youve been trying to claim Jesus was only a good teacher. Well then, if he was a good moral teacher, you can trust him and believe the essential things he says. (Otherwise, hes not a great teacher). And the essential thing he says is that he is the divine Savior of the world and that you must come to him for salvation. If he is a good teacher, you must accept his essential teaching as true. That he is GOD.
First, ask the question, what was Jesus coming to address or do?
His first public words were:
Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matthew 4:17)
In Mark 2, he says: I came not to call the righteous but sinners.
In the Old Testament, God had given the Israelites his Law. Its purpose was to constantly remind man that he is evil, alienated from God. To reinforce this, animal sacrifices were put in place. Sin deserved death. So if someone sinned, he had to offer a sacrifice to take the punishment. God promised that he would eventually completely remove their sin, which was an offense to his holiness. The law was a reflection of Gods character. Sin was against God. To be in right relationship with God, one had to be righteous (that is, perfect, not sinful).
So then Jesus says in Matthew 5, beginning in verse 17--
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them......unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
So the law is there. It is the standard. Man is failing. The scribes/pharisees who tried to obey the law strictly and thus were trying to earn salvation were failing.
So what does God do?
John 3:16 (yeah, youve probably heard this before) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes on him should not perish but have eternal life.
Why does believing in him help?
In Luke 9, he says: The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.
He explains this further:
For the Son of Man himself did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many'(Mark 10:45)
Drink all of you from this', he said. 'For this is my blood, the blood of the covenant, which is to be poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:28)
Ok. Now why was Jesus so special? Was he really one of many prophets or just a good moral teacher? What qualified him to take the punishment of other men and rise from the dead when others could not?
Well, who was he? Lets look at what he says.
He claims to God the Son, equal with God the Father.
Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Mark 14:61 Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me."
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
So Jesus claims to be God. There are three options here. Before I state them, I must say emphatically the one thing he cannot be is just a good man. He claimed to be God. Weve got three options: Liar, Lunatic, or God.
1. Lunatic. If youve read any of the gospel narratives, it is pretty much impossible to hold the position that Jesus was insane. The things he says could not have been said by a mad man. Also, no one around him thought he was insane. His air of authority astonished people. His compassion was unmatched, etc.
2. Liar. If his claim to divinity were a lie then he can hardly be deemed a great teacher. If Jesus set out to systematically deceive people about who he was and how their sins were to be dealt with, then he was among the worst teachers that have ever walked the earth.
You see, youve been trying to claim Jesus was only a good teacher. Well then, if he was a good moral teacher, you can trust him and believe the essential things he says. (Otherwise, hes not a great teacher). And the essential thing he says is that he is the divine Savior of the world and that you must come to him for salvation. If he is a good teacher, you must accept his essential teaching as true. That he is GOD.