doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Right, so devaluing human life and labor is now a "libertarian" priority? I mean, it is . . . but it's nice to see someone admit it. :?)
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GM ships 1,000 jobs to Mexico
- Thread starter Troublemane
- Start date
doppelgänger;2327946 said:
Also, there are a lot of people who are not themselves billionaires that nevertheless defend the interests of the large corporations, the Koch Brothers, Pete Peterson and others in dragging us down. What did Lenin call the same sort of fool during the Russian Revolution? I think his contemptuous term was "useful idiots". I would love to know what David Koch privately thinks of Tea Baggers, Republicans and Libertarians.
Alceste
Vagabond
From Century of the Self, I get the impression their ilk tends to view the rest of us as "the masses" - an unruly, potentially dangerous hoarde of knuckle-dragging morons who need to be misinformed and manipulated "for our own good". IOW, I'm pretty confident the Koch brothers believe they know better than you what is in your best interest: coincidentally, it just happens to be in THEIR best interest too! Only, you are too thick to properly understand the truth, so it's best they just tell you it has something to do with freedom, preferably in the context of a bit of phallic symbolism and patriotic music.
You know better. You're dishonest to pretend to wrest such a conclusion from my post.doppelgänger;2327946 said:
Discussing economics with true believers is so fruitless.
You would call others "idiot", eh? Those in glass houses.....
I think you're right, Alceste. The Koch Brothers and folks like them probably do not reserve any special contempt for Tea Baggers, Republicans, or Libertarians -- they probably think nearly everyone is beneath them. But that's just a guess.
Requia
Active Member
While I normally think trickle down is a load of bull, shipping some skilled jobs to Mexico ultimately helps the US, since Mexican instability always spills across the border, and we don't have the massive trade deficit with Mexico (they buy a ton of food from us, though admittedly thats half the cause of the instability).
Better than shipping them to China or Canada at least.
Better than shipping them to China or Canada at least.
I think this is more about principal than just trade.
That is 1000 jobs not in the US. Yes there will be a little work to come of it but not like the manufacture of the entire vehicle. And don't get into this crap about they but agricultural goods because we may as well be giving them part of that because there is a lot of money from the US that slips into Mexico under the radar. A lot of the agricultural work is also done by illegals so it is not really great looking at it that way either.
Do realize I know that the majority of foreign workers are documented and I know they pay into the system.
That is 1000 jobs not in the US. Yes there will be a little work to come of it but not like the manufacture of the entire vehicle. And don't get into this crap about they but agricultural goods because we may as well be giving them part of that because there is a lot of money from the US that slips into Mexico under the radar. A lot of the agricultural work is also done by illegals so it is not really great looking at it that way either.
Do realize I know that the majority of foreign workers are documented and I know they pay into the system.
Respectfully: How in the hell can we help anyone when we cant help ourselves?
I heard all of the economist BS about how all these free trade agreements were good (this is very indirectly related to this) and high tech jobs would come in. Well I live in one of those formerly textile rich areas that has been suffering the results.
A programmer job, as a matter of fact 90% of degree level work, around here pays squat. We have pharmaceutical work leaving the country RTP is outsourcing and off shoring. The profits are going up and the people are paying for it.
Point being lifting others up is great when we can stand on our own feet.
GabrielWithoutWings
Well-Known Member
It's simply profit above all else. I watched as factory after factory shut down back in Tennessee. Murray Ohio, Tridon, Johnson Control, Texas Boot, Genesco.... all just big empty buildings. Now you have to commute an hour plus to reach anything close to decent.
Honestly though... you can't really blame companies. Why would you pay an American worker 15 dollars an hour when you can pay someone 15 dollars a week for the same thing?
Honestly though... you can't really blame companies. Why would you pay an American worker 15 dollars an hour when you can pay someone 15 dollars a week for the same thing?
I blame the American people. I don't think this can be fixed. So we have our cheap everything trash that we demand and the big boys get rich. Hell if we had just stuck to buying mostly American made things the it would not be this way.
GabrielWithoutWings
Well-Known Member
I blame a few of the American people. The game is rigged. You only have an illusion of choice. I blame the people that rig the game in the first place.
Good point. I try to avoid it but there is little choice anymore.
Trade is good but to do it in such a way that it does not actually lift everyone we trade with up to our standards simply creates fat cats over there.
I love how people talk about zero growth. Hell we are growing ourselves slower than we are growing others.
Troublemane
Well-Known Member
I'm not an ideologue, though I do identify with much of the Libertarian view. You could describe me as being socially liberal and fiscally conservative. I think anyone should be free to do anything as long as it hurts no-one, that includes making others pay for it.
That being said, I also am a Union member of the IBEW. I see union membership as a means for workers to freely associate and I am all for collective bargaining, 100%. I realize this makes me seem something of an oddity, among conservatives and liberals alike. But I can tell you from my own experience, I owe alot to my union brothers for the good working conditions I enjoy. Before there was an IBEW, the death rate among electricians was 1:2. One in two would die their first year in the trade. (I am totally against unions for gov. employees, but thats a different thread....)
Yeah, I am against "free trade" between nations, because I think it is completely idiotic to allow corporations to operate, essentially, above the law. It makes them into new superpowers and it erodes our national sovereignty, what there is left of it anyways. I am disgusted by politicians who say they are all for workers rights and look for union support on the campaign trail, then let crap like this go on, and they expect us union guys to still support them? Because they figure there is no way we will go to the other side?...But if they do crap like this, ship jobs overseas, then tell me, what is the difference between Obama and George Bush? If there is only one or two things different, then I am fully justified in voting on just those few differences, IMO.
To be honest, I voted for Obama mainly because China favored McCain, but now I am having diffculty seeing any difference between him and McCain.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Come now, you're being a bit ridiculous.
McCain is clearly both older and whiter than Obama.
Alceste
Vagabond
I think we share a lot of similar views. The only thing that concerns me about the US "Libertarian" movement is that it's whole aim is to "deregulate" on behalf of corporations, not individuals. The "big government" they aim to roll back is the regulatory framework that ensures corporations behave themselves by (for example) not dumping toxins into the biosphere wholesale (like Dow et al), not disregarding safety standards (like BP et al), as well as the social safety net that ensures any laid off GM workers don't starve to death while they're trying to find jobs after theirs are outsourced to Mexico or China.
So, supporting re-branded "Tea Party" Republicans is, in essence, supporting greater outsourcing of American jobs to cheaper labour markets, not to mention the far more serious corporate misbehavior that will surely ensue after the regulatory and enforcement framework in the US is successfully destroyed.
That said, I'm all for individual liberties for human beings. There is no political faction that currently represents this agenda, although all of them pretend to in a cynical bid for your vote.