Is living a gay/lesbian lifestyle a problem with God?

Rainbow Mage · May 4, 2010

Zaphnath you're reaching. The Jews also had in their law not to eat pork and shellfish, yet I bet you have no problem with that. Why can't you just admit Jesus never said anything about homosexuality? Christianity is inclusive, including homosexuals, and people need to stop trying to shut certain groups out.

Duck · May 4, 2010

Green Kepi said:
Whoo-we! Heretical Monist & Autodidact you did well in your responses. Kinda hit me back hard but I respect your positions. However, dang...Duck! You sort of lost it. Where is that respectfulness, non-violence, based in love that Autodidact speaks of? You might make a good Christian if you work harder at it....

Why would I want to have anything to do with being a good christian? As far as that, the response I posted is entirely in keeping with MY experience with 'good christians'.

Seriously, though, WHY is it that in any discussion of same-sex relationships it is as inevitable as the heat death of the universe that a christian will bring up sex with animals as being the result of allowing same-sex relationships?

Green Kepi · May 4, 2010

Duck said:
Why would I want to have anything to do with being a good christian? As far as that, the response I posted is entirely in keeping with MY experience with 'good christians'.

Seriously, though, WHY is it that in any discussion of same-sex relationships it is as inevitable as the heat death of the universe that a christian will bring up sex with animals as being the result of allowing same-sex relationships?

Called 'tongue in cheek' or 'pun'. Sorry to attempt humor...I realize you're one serious dude. To answer your question...I cannot speak for other Christians; but, the reason I brought it up is to attempt to find out what you base your morals on. Where do you draw a line on anything. Just wondering If you have a base-line for your beliefs. It seems if anything would go if you have no fear of standing before the Judgment Seat of Christ. The principles I attempt to live by is the Principles taught by Christ. So...that's why. Guess that's a horrible way to live, huh?

Shadow Wolf · May 4, 2010

Just wondering If you have a base-line for your beliefs. It seems if anything would go if you have no fear of standing before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

I draw the line at harming another, which homosexuality harms no one. I believe that that simple rule, of harm no one, is really all one needs to live a moral life. And no, I am not afraid of standing judgment before your God. If he can really find such a horrible fault in me to cast me into hell for eternity, then I'd rather be in hell anyways.

Green Kepi · May 4, 2010

Shadow Wolf said:
I draw the line at harming another, which homosexuality harms no one. I believe that that simple rule, of harm no one, is really all one needs to live a moral life. And no, I am not afraid of standing judgment before your God. If he can really find such a horrible fault in me to cast me into hell for eternity, then I'd rather be in hell anyways.

I also do not believe in "harming another". Although, I cannot subscribe to your doctrine that all we need is to harm no one. There's a lot more to life than that one rule. Without love...all the principles, keeping rituals, etc. means nothing.

I am not Catholic...so I do not believe in Hell as most Christians teach. I do though believe God is a consuming fire and will destroy your soul since you do not fear Him and follow His Plan of Salvation. That is what Judgment Day is for...when all will confess that Jesus is Lord. On that day, if your names' not in His Book...then it's(symbolically) called being thrown into the Lake of Fire...which is God destroying your soul for eternity....

Autodidact · May 4, 2010

Green Kepi said:
Called 'tongue in cheek' or 'pun'. Sorry to attempt humor...I realize you're one serious dude. To answer your question...I cannot speak for other Christians; but, the reason I brought it up is to attempt to find out what you base your morals on. Where do you draw a line on anything. Just wondering If you have a base-line for your beliefs. It seems if anything would go if you have no fear of standing before the Judgment Seat of Christ. The principles I attempt to live by is the Principles taught by Christ. So...that's why. Guess that's a horrible way to live, huh?

Well, what did Christ teach us about love between two men or two women?

Rainbow Mage · May 4, 2010

Christ never preached anything about homosexuality

Green Kepi · May 4, 2010

Autodidact said:
Well, what did Christ teach us about love between two men or two women?

[FONT=&quot]True, as you say, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality, but He did condemn all forms of sexual immorality. He condemned and taught His Apostles that any sex outside of marriage is a sin.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Soas I stated many times, I [/FONT][FONT=&quot]believe that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. I believe that homosexual behavior conflicts with the word of God and that it is unnatural.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]While I do believe that homosexuality is an unacceptable lifestyle choice, I do believe that judgment for sin is left only to God. Sopleasequit worrying about meIm a nobodymy opinion doesnt really count. I'd advise you to worry about someone who would 'cut your head off' for your belief. Not me.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So, I cannot condone or embrace homosexuality within the church because of these two Scriptures:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mark 7:20-23: What comes out of you is what defiles you. For from within, out of your hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile you.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Romans 1:25-27: They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-- who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Shadow Wolf · May 4, 2010

I do though believe God is a consuming fire and will destroy your soul since you do not fear Him and follow His Plan of Salvation. That is what Judgment Day is for...when all will confess that Jesus is Lord. On that day, if your names' not in His Book...then it's(symbolically) called being thrown into the Lake of Fire...which is God destroying your soul for eternity....

And should that day come, you don't want to know what words I will have for this so-called "god." (that, and it might result in me getting a warning.) In my path of spiritualism, I would say that I have the pride of my father, the great fallen angel Lucifer. I will not bow, I will not bend.

Green Kepi · May 5, 2010

Shadow Wolf said:
And should that day come, you don't want to know what words I will have for this so-called "god." (that, and it might result in me getting a warning.) In my path of spiritualism, I would say that I have the pride of my father, the great fallen angel Lucifer. I will not bow, I will not bend.

In how do you believe your "father" came to be in the "fallen" state that he is in?

Duck · May 5, 2010

Green Kepi said:
Called 'tongue in cheek' or 'pun'. Sorry to attempt humor...I realize you're one serious dude. To answer your question...I cannot speak for other Christians; but, the reason I brought it up is to attempt to find out what you base your morals on. Where do you draw a line on anything. Just wondering If you have a base-line for your beliefs. It seems if anything would go if you have no fear of standing before the Judgment Seat of Christ. The principles I attempt to live by is the Principles taught by Christ. So...that's why. Guess that's a horrible way to live, huh?

I like others that have responded feel that one of the most important parts of a moral or ethical life is to minimize the harm I do to others. I do not see how relationships of any nature between fully informed, sober, uncoerced and consenting adults cause harm, either to those adults or to society as a whole. And so, I feel that those relationships are and should be fully allowed and supported by the secular community. Said secular community is of course a very separate entity from a religious community or organization. Civil law and regulation is necessary, such civil law should have little to do with religious tenets assembled 2 or more millenia ago.

tarasan · May 5, 2010

Heretical Monist said:
Christ never preached anything about homosexuality

wouldnt he have said something about it if he disagreed with the OT interpretation?

His silence only shows his agreement that it was a sin.

zaph'nath-paan'eah · May 5, 2010

Peace be upon you.

The people to who Jesus came does not eat pork either.

After Jesus resurrection:

Acts 10:1-48
14.But Peter said, Not so. Lord:

FOR I HAVE NEVER EATEN ANY THING THAT IS COMMON OR UNCLEAN.

Note:

Jesus never mention Homosexual?

Yes, He did mentioned Homosexual.

Leviticus 18:1-30

22.THOU SHALT NOT LIE WITH MANKIND, AS WITH WOMANKIND IS AN ABOMINATION.

Leviticus 20:1-27

13.If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, BOTH OF THEM have committed an ABOMINATION: they sure surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

John 5:1-47

19. Then answers Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I said unto you,

THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, BUT WHAT HE SEETH THE FATHER DO:

FOR WHAT THINGS SOEVER HE DOETH THE SON LIKEWISE.

22. FOR THE FATHER JUDGETH NO MAN, BUT HATH COMMITTED ALL JUDGMENT UNTO THE SON:

THAT ALLL MAN SHOULD HONOR THE SON, EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER.

HE THAT HONORETH NOT THE SON HONORETH NOT THE FATHER WHICH HAVE SENT HIM.

Romans 1:1-32

25....who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and serve the creature more then the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26.For these cause God gave them up unto VILE AFFECTIONS: for even their WOMAN did change the NATURAL USE into that which is against NATURAL. (Woman with woman, oral sex, anal sex, masturbation).

27...and likewise also the man, living the NATURAL USE of the woman, BURNED IN THEIR LUST one toward another; MEN with MEN working that which is UNSEEMLY, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

32...who, knowing THE JUDGMENT OF GOD, that they which commit such thing are worthy of death, NOT ONLY DO THE SAME, BUT HAVE PLEASURE IN THEM THAT DO THEM.

Juan 17:1-26 About Jesus Christ Apostol and Paul that wrote the letter to Romans was one of them.

14. "I have given them thy word; and the world have hate them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15.I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them out of these world, but that you shouldest KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL.

20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall BELIEVE ON ME through their WORD;

21...that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me and I in thee, that they also may be ONE IN US; that the world may be ONE IN US:

...that the world may believe that THOU HAVE SENT ME.

22.AND THE GLORY WHICH THOU GAVEST ME I HAVE GIVEN THEM; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE.

John 15:1-27

14.Ye are my FRIEND,if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Note:
Jesus did talk about homosexuality and the apostol too because they are all one on the Father in haven who said homosexuality is an abomination.

tarasan · May 5, 2010

Shadow Wolf said:
And should that day come, you don't want to know what words I will have for this so-called "god." (that, and it might result in me getting a warning.) In my path of spiritualism, I would say that I have the pride of my father, the great fallen angel Lucifer. I will not bow, I will not bend.

I think your desire to bow or bend would be irrelevant in that situation.

Also i find it highly doubtable any of us would know what we would od in THAT particular situation, considering we have never experienced anything quite like it.

Autodidact · May 5, 2010

Green Kepi said:
[FONT=&quot]True, as you say, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality, but He did condemn all forms of sexual immorality. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] First, did you notice how you assumed your conclusion? That's what we're trying to figure out--is homosexuality sexually immoral? But you might want to go back and read your gospels again, Green, and see what He actually said about sex. It's obvious that He opposes adultery, and He specifically condemns divorce and adulterous lust. That's it. It really was not a focus for Him. [/FONT]

[FONT="] He condemned and taught His Apostles that any sex outside of marriage is a sin.[/FONT]

Yup. Sex outside of marriage--gay or straight--is a sin. Adultery. Well, almost. He doesn't address pre-marital sex. What He strongly opposes is adultery, which includes divorce and re-marriage. Yet, for some reason, you never hear sermons, Christian activism, or threads here at RF focusing on what Jesus actually taught. It's always the poor gay people, withwhom He had no problem.

[FONT="]So…as I stated many times, I [/FONT][FONT="]believe that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. I believe that homosexual behavior conflicts with the word of God and that it is unnatural. [/FONT]

And you're wrong on all points. It's not a lifestyle choice, any more than your heterosexuality is, and it doesn't conflict with the word of God at all. Specifically, God has NO PROBLEM with lesbianism. None. If you say He does, you're just making it up. And the specific term for that is heresy. It's a big time sin, so you might want to cut it out.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT="]While I do believe that homosexuality is an unacceptable lifestyle choice,[/FONT]

Well, I understand and forgive your bigotry.

[FONT="] I do believe that judgment for sin is left only to God. So…please…quit worrying about me…I’m a nobody…my opinion doesn’t really count. I'd advise you to worry about someone who would 'cut your head off' for your belief. Not me.[/FONT]

So you support gay marriage then? btw, did I ask for your advice? Why would I want advice from a bigot who can't follow his own religion?

[FONT="]So, I cannot condone or embrace homosexuality within the church because of these two Scriptures:[/FONT]

[FONT="]Mark 7:20-23: What comes out of you is what defiles you. For from within, out of your hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile you.[/FONT]

That's wild. Because it doesn't say a word about homosexuality there. Unless you assume that homosexuality is immoral, which you can only do out of sheer bigotry.

You seem to be having trouble getting over the prejudice you've been indoctrinated with. You may find it a helpful mental exercise to use interracial marriage as an example. If you assume, as we all did for 200 years, that interracial marriage is immoral, you would use this passage to condemn it. Once you realize that it isn't, in fact Jesus preaches in favor of it (that love thing) you realize this passage is inapplicable.

In other words, you suffer from the usual flaw of theist thinking. You're assuming your conclusion. Not kosher.

Romans 1:25-27: They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-- who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

I agree with this passage. No one should engage in unnatural sex; it's a sin. For a gay person, heterosexual sex is unnatural, and would be sinful.

Further, this passage is a story. It is not a prohibition. It tells how God cursed bad people with a desire for unnatural sex. As I said at the beginning, your God knows how to prohibit; He's a champ at that. Had He wanted to prohibit lesbianism, He would have done so.

It's not up to you to tell God what to prohibit, it's up to you to follow God's commandments. Otherwise you're blaspheming. You might want to cut that out.

Finally, who tells this story? *hint* Not Jesus.

Autodidact · May 5, 2010

tarasan said:
wouldnt he have said something about it if he disagreed with the OT interpretation?

His silence only shows his agreement that it was a sin.

So I take it you would never wear clothing of mixed fibers? Or trim the edges of your beard?

You're assuming that, looking back from today, we can know what that interpretation was. We really don't. We're not sure what those passages mean. Experts now tell us they were probably prohibitions against ritual temple prostitution, which makes a lot more sense. In any case, whatever they were, they did not involve women in any way.

To look at from the other end, if Jesus condemned lesbianism, wouldn't His father have thought to mention it for the first 2000 years?

Autodidact · May 5, 2010

zaph'nath-paan'eah said:
Peace be upon you.

The people to who Jesus came does not eat pork either.

After Jesus resurrection:

Acts 10:1-48
14.But Peter said, Not so. Lord:

FOR I HAVE NEVER EATEN ANY THING THAT IS COMMON OR UNCLEAN.

Note:

Jesus never mention Homosexual?

Yes, He did mentioned Homosexual.

Leviticus 18:1-30

22.THOU SHALT NOT LIE WITH MANKIND, AS WITH WOMANKIND IS AN ABOMINATION.

Leviticus 20:1-27

13.If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, BOTH OF THEM have committed an ABOMINATION: they sure surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

John 5:1-47

19. Then answers Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I said unto you,

THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, BUT WHAT HE SEETH THE FATHER DO:

FOR WHAT THINGS SOEVER HE DOETH THE SON LIKEWISE.

22. FOR THE FATHER JUDGETH NO MAN, BUT HATH COMMITTED ALL JUDGMENT UNTO THE SON:

THAT ALLL MAN SHOULD HONOR THE SON, EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER.

HE THAT HONORETH NOT THE SON HONORETH NOT THE FATHER WHICH HAVE SENT HIM.

Romans 1:1-32

25....who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and serve the creature more then the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26.For these cause God gave them up unto VILE AFFECTIONS: for even their WOMAN did change the NATURAL USE into that which is against NATURAL. (Woman with woman, oral sex, anal sex, masturbation).

27...and likewise also the man, living the NATURAL USE of the woman, BURNED IN THEIR LUST one toward another; MEN with MEN working that which is UNSEEMLY, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

32...who, knowing THE JUDGMENT OF GOD, that they which commit such thing are worthy of death, NOT ONLY DO THE SAME, BUT HAVE PLEASURE IN THEM THAT DO THEM.

Juan 17:1-26 About Jesus Christ Apostol and Paul that wrote the letter to Romans was one of them.

14. "I have given them thy word; and the world have hate them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15.I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them out of these world, but that you shouldest KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL.

20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall BELIEVE ON ME through their WORD;

21...that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me and I in thee, that they also may be ONE IN US; that the world may be ONE IN US:

...that the world may believe that THOU HAVE SENT ME.

22.AND THE GLORY WHICH THOU GAVEST ME I HAVE GIVEN THEM; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE.

John 15:1-27

14.Ye are my FRIEND,if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Note:
Jesus did talk about homosexuality and the apostol too because they are all one on the Father in haven who said homosexuality is an abomination.

It's wild how you lie, and then provide the passages proving that you're lying. Not one of the passages you quote is Jesus talking about homosexuality!

tarasan · May 5, 2010

Autodidact said:
So I take it you would never wear clothing of mixed fibers? Or trim the edges of your beard?

You're assuming that, looking back from today, we can know what that interpretation was. We really don't. We're not sure what those passages mean. Experts now tell us they were probably prohibitions against ritual temple prostitution, which makes a lot more sense. In any case, whatever they were, they did not involve women in any way.

To look at from the other end, if Jesus condemned lesbianism, wouldn't His father have thought to mention it for the first 2000 years?

Im sorry thats a bad argument the New testament gives us permission to stop those things however it does not give us the right to ignore the moral law. Remeber the Counsel in the New Testament?

Its true there are alot of interpretations, and id be the first to let things like homosexuality slide, however Paul is very very unforgiving on sexual immorality not limited to homosexuality.

Autodidact · May 5, 2010

tarasan said:
Im sorry thats a bad argument the New testament gives us permission to stop those things however it does not give us the right to ignore the moral law. Remeber the Counsel in the New Testament?

Once again you're assuming your conclusion. If you assume that homosexuality is immoral, then you conclude that the NT condemns it. But you have no basis on which to assume that, because there's nothing immoral about homosexuality. It's not more immoral than heterosexuality, often less so. The OT contains many primitive purity codes, commanding us what not to eat, wear, and what kind of sex not to have. They're all of the same kind, and they're all handily grouped together in Leviticus. What you're arguing is that Jesus went through and picked some of these to keep, and others to revoke. However, there is no scripture to support this.

Furthermore, as I keep saying and as usual no one cares, the old purity codes did not prohibit lesbianism.

Its true there are alot of interpretations, and id be the first to let things like homosexuality slide, however Paul is very very unforgiving on sexual immorality not limited to homosexuality.

And yet, oddly, he only mentions "unnatural sex," never homosexuality, and only once.

You don't have to "let it slide." There's nothing wrong with it, and Jesus did not have a problem with it. If you want to follow Jesus, then you should support and encourage love wherever you find it.

If you want to focus on sexuality, rather than love, as Jesus did, then you should be worrying about divorce, not homosexuality. That's what Jesus cared about.

Autodidact · May 5, 2010

So, just to recap, lesbianism is not prohibited in either testament. Jesus personally prohibits remarriage after divorce, (except in one passage, in a single narrow exception). Yet so-called Christians focus a lot of energy on fighting what Jesus did not condemn (lesbianism) and none on what He did (divorce.) That's because they are a bunch of stinking hypocrites.

Is living a gay/lesbian lifestyle a problem with God?

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